Black Country Blues

[mikeh]

Similarly, back in steam days drivers used whistle codes to let the signalman know where he wanted to go, if the bobby didn't already know.

 

These were shown in the Sectional Appendix for most locations.

 

And of course prior to 1976 most diesels displayed the reporting number in the headcode panel on the front of the engine which gave a good clue!

 

Regards

MikeH

Edited December 5, 2012 by mikeh

[Guest Phil]

See I was very fond of the Bristol VRs with the WM body, but they are possibly a tad new for BCB.

 

Heres a 1977 view of an "M" reg VR en route to Darlaston Green from Wednesbury - not a million miles away

 

 

We're getting warmer with an ex Midland Red S17 on a Wednesbury-Stourbridge service but it would be post 1976 with the PTE logos.

 

 

You could also use one of these CVG6s which are produced in RTP format. This ex West Brom allocated vehicle is on a Walsall - Wednesbury - Dudley service, so again very near to the "zone"

 

 

This is an interesting image."Standard WMPTE" buses in Walsall for Wednesbury and Darlaston, but look the blind on that bus !!! A bit too late but you get the idea.

 

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3106/4558270325_5fda1b6923_o.jpg

[Worsdell forever]

Sorry to disappoint but I don't do buses! don't know enough about them.

 

The TK is very nearly finished, all painted up, managed to mix a green very close to the cab green from Vallejo Olive green, Prussian blue and a bit of black. The body has been fitted and a couple of pallets and a sheet roped down at the back. The whole lot has been weathered with powders as a well looked after 10 year old workhorse. Jobs still to do are to add rear lights, windscreen wipers and a spare wheel, for which I have, somewhere, a couple of old EFE chassis that I can pinch one off.

 

 

 

[Stubby47]

I guessed the headcode would help, but I'd have thought the route would be set long before the loco appeared in view.

[Fat Controller]

Sorry to disappoint but I don't do buses! don't know enough about them.

 

The TK is very nearly finished, all painted up, managed to mix a green very close to the cab green from Vallejo Olive green, Prussian blue and a bit of black. The body has been fitted and a couple of pallets and a sheet roped down at the back. The whole lot has been weathered with powders as a well looked after 10 year old workhorse. Jobs still to do are to add rear lights, windscreen wipers and a spare wheel, for which I have, somewhere, a couple of old EFE chassis that I can pinch one off.

 

 

 

Would it be possible to obtain some stillages to put on the deck? To me those are the archetypal West Midlands/ Black Country load, carrying castings or other smaller components from the myriad small works to the various major users. Drivers always seemed to hang on to one, used to stow sheets, ropes etc, tied hard against the headboard.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Fat Controller

[Stubby47]

Looking very nice.

 

Have you flattened the bottom of the tyres ?

[Worsdell forever]

Would it be possible to obtain some stillages to put on the deck? To me those are the archetypal West Midlands/ Black Country load, carrying castings or other smaller components from the myriad small works to the various major users. Drivers always seemed to hang on to one, used to stow sheets, ropes etc, tied hard against the headboard.

 

That's a possibility for the next one Brian, as it will be for Stubby's WE Millward Ltd they would fit well with delivering/collecting from a small factory. I've found one photo from 1970 in a magazine (not a brilliant shot) but does anyone have or know of any suitable photos?

 

Looking very nice.

 

Have you flattened the bottom of the tyres ?

 

No, not yet, they're that horrible soft rubber that files/emery hate...

[Old Gringo]

It is always difficult to try and assess colours second-hand, especially as one person's monitor is probably calibrated differently to someone elses, not to mention the fact that my original photo would have gone through a couple of digital processes before it appeared on-line. However, having said all that, is it a question of the colours being too light (possibly a bit on the right-hand model gate - although that could just be the ambient lighting when the photo was taken), or is it more a question of them being too bright. Looking at my original photograph, there does appear to be a fair bit of white in the green caused by natural fading. I would suggest that there is also, probably, a hint of yellow in the green in general, and in some boards there appears to be a bluey tinge, particularly top-right (maybe a hint of Humbrol Matt Blue no.89 or thereabouts added to the green). What does Old Gringo think, he has a better eye than me?

 

Steve

Old Gringo thinks he agrees with Steve; as there are so many variables when assessing colours on screens and comparing photographs taken under different lighting conditions, etc.

 

Plus, everything connected with the BCB project is a team build and I'd like to bet that we're all working on our models under different lighting conditions = more variables.

 

Therefore, in my opinion, until all the pieces of the jigsaw are collected together under the BCB (daylight) lighting rig, I think that we should all accept that we're building to the best standard we can and painting the models using the colours that each of us think are correct for the job.

 

Stu, if you want me to quote on the different finishes applied to the gates, in posts 206, 216 and 223, please send me a pm. However, sitting firmly on the fence staring at my monitor, they're all very good - each catching the character of the originals with slightly different shades and textures and I really like them all.

[Richard_S]

I am really enjoying reading the continued evolution of this layout. Thinking about how you will operate the layout before completing construction can only enhance the fun you will have actually playing trains on it.

[Stubby47]

Thanks John.

 

I know the gates are too light, the base colour is the colour of the card ( don't tell Chris) which was a light green. The real gates were obviously painted a darker green originally, which has since faded, rubbed off and otherwise disappeared.

 

They are only a minor part, so quick to re-paint. They also need the top bar adding, plus some fitments (lock, etc) and a sign of some sort.

 

My issue with the concrete was it was too dark, so I will go over it again with the sandpaper, to reveal the lighter filler underneath.

[beast66606]

Similarly, back in steam days drivers used whistle codes to let the signalman know where he wanted to go, if the bobby didn't already know.

 

Indeed, and this practice lasted into diesel days (iirc), certainly still in use in 1960, I haven't got any later paperwork with me to check.

 

Some of the cabins had frightening amounts of whistle codes for the signalmen to listen out for, as well as very complex layouts, and lots of trains moving, being a bobby in some of the boxes must have been challenging to say the least.

[Stubby47]

Found these images, hope they are of some use :

 

http://flickrhivemind.net/User/smith.rodney74/Interesting

 

http://www.stilltimecollection.co.uk/gallery/28-0.html

[Steve Williams]

I actually like the concrete colour. To me it looks like there is old concrete which over the years has acquired a build up of dirt and grease and general muck that one tends to find around old factories / foundries / railway yards. Rain washes it from the surrounding verges. More gets added from muddied lorry wheels, it tends to build up in sunken areas and where the original surface has broken up and in due course this then all gets compacted down to form a surface overlay.

[Steve Williams]

Ref above post. This isn't exactly what I mean, but it gives some idea with regard to original surface breaking up, sinking and trapping an overlay:

 

[Stubby47]

That's exactly the type of surface I'm trying to replicate.

 

I was inspired to this sort of mixed surface by the old goods yard at Bodmin General, where the old brick floor can be partially seen below/among the cinders/coal dust.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Stubby47

[Mark Forrest]

Not being familiar with TOPS codes, when I read that from Mike, I thought he was offering to build some wagon coded WTT, seriously. It wasn't 'till I read subsequent posts that realisation dawned.....

Good point, I know I'm guilty of using too many three letter acronyms (TLAs ) and I can see how that might get confusing.

 

Yes, something on TOPS code would be very useful and interesting.

I did start a post explaining, but found this page which gives far more detail than I could hope to give.

In simple terms, the first letter is the type of wagon (some are obvious like V for van, H for hopper, B for bogie steel), others are a bit more obscure (C for brake van? although I read somewhere of a theory that this might be C for caboose!). Second letter gives a more detailed breakdown of types (VV for Van Ventilated, VW for Van Wide etc). The last letter is the brake type, e.g. O for unfitted, V for vacuum brakes, A for air brakes, P for vac piped.

 

Whether the wagons on BCB in 1975 would actually display their TOPS codes is another matter altogether - but you've got to admit, it is quicker to type MDV than 21 ton double door vacuum braked mineral!

 

 

Hope that helps - will try to give better explanations both here and in the rolling stock thread.

 

 

I am really enjoying reading the continued evolution of this layout. Thinking about how you will operate the layout before completing construction can only enhance the fun you will have actually playing trains on it.

 

To be honest, I would advocate doing this much earlier in the design process - ideally before the track plan is finalised. Time scales for this project meant we had to just get on with it!

[beast66606]

To be honest, I would advocate doing this much earlier in the design process - ideally before the track plan is finalised. Time scales for this project meant we had to just get on with it!

 

I've said this before (on other threads) but it's worth repeating (I think) - we spent hours designing what turned out to be relatively simple trackplan for Widnes but then we spent 2-3 X the amount of time designing the fiddle yard to support the workings we wanted to run, rather than just using a plain ladder.

[Coombe Barton]

I'm not even pretending to understand this - just going to go see it and watch the trains go by.

[2ManySpams]

Thanks John.

 

I know the gates are too light, the base colour is the colour of the card ( don't tell Chris) which was a light green. The real gates were obviously painted a darker green originally, which has since faded, rubbed off and otherwise disappeared.

 

 

I think that, in general, colours look more natural on a model if they are a few shades lighter than the 'true' colour. Probably something to do with the real scale distance we are viewing the model from when looking at our train sets. Exact match colours look too lively and artificial on a model particularly if they are a very shiny gloss...

 

PS Use of cardboard noted - it's going down in the little green book.

[2ManySpams]

I think I'm understanding some of the TOPS talk but a lack of a detailed knowledge of what lines went where and location names doesn't help in my case. Not yet built the physical map of links, nodes and names in my head. It's slowly coming together but I must admit knowing more about lines 100s of miles away than those not far down the road.

[Guest Phil]

I'm not even pretending to understand this - just going to go see it and watch the trains go by.

 

And that is the raison d'tre of the layout for most people, and I understand that. For myself and Mike though, we both needed to understand how this would logically slot into the "real" Black Country. We have just had a conversation, and bounced a few ideas about, but I'll let Mike make his suggestions and suppositions. He actually puts forward some very interesting and plausible notions, but maybe a bit of homework is required.

 

An example - A Lackenby - Trafalgar sidings train of (fairly new) BAAs would obviously need an Eastern Region dual braked type 4. How many DB class 40s were allocated to Thornaby depot in 1975, or would the train be diagrammed to a YK class 40, or maybe a GD class 46 on a cyclic diagram.

 

To many, it is too much "mind games", but to us it is enhancing believability. There is certainly plenty of scope for operations.

[Richard_S]

 

 

 

 

To be honest, I would advocate doing this much earlier in the design process - ideally before the track plan is finalised. Time scales for this project meant we had to just get on with it!

 

What you have all achieved in such a short space of time is nothing short of remarkable and I intend to come to Doncaster for your first outing. Dont beat yourselves up fortiming constraints as you put my attempts to model a 14 ft layout seem positively pedestrian.

 

There is much you can do to add interest to running a layout and I would highlight 2 that we have used sucessfully;

 

1 The ingenious loco finder that generates train workings randomly and avoids running through a repetitive sequence or just working through a fiddle yard array. Aka the "MILF".

 

2 Deliberately introducing gremlins by declaring locos to have failed or requiring assistance so operators have to work around them.

 

These might be a tad ambitious for your first outing where you may wish to concentrate on keeping things running. But For the longer term they truly add another dimension to operating over a couple of days.

[Coombe Barton]

And that is the raison d'tre of the layout for most people, and I understand that. For myself and Mike though, we both needed to understand how this would logically slot into the "real" Black Country.

OK, then let me say - watching the trains go by knowing that they aren't just a series of moves for the sake of it but based on a real might have been. It's as much as I can do to get things right for GW BLT. I admire what you're doing and why you're doing it - and the level of detail everyone's putting into it.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Coombe Barton

[Guest Phil]

Another question I posed to Mike concerns the delivery of oil. Although it would be the easiest thing in the world to run say a Thames Haven - Trafalgar sidings heating oil train, if the discharge gear is up the branch in the works, would the works engines be entrusted with the block oil train ? I don't think so - certainly not 100T tanks. Maybe splitting the train of 45T or 35T tanks and taking a few at a time, which also requires a works loco with train brakes - which you would need for tripping loaded BAAs in and out of the works. What industrial locos did you have in mind ? Janus, or YEC designs similar to those at Round Oak ?

[Mark Forrest]

An example - A Lackenby - Trafalgar sidings train of (fairly new) BAAs would obviously need an Eastern Region dual braked type 4. How many DB class 40s were allocated to Thornaby depot in 1975, or would the train be diagrammed to a YK class 40, or maybe a GD class 46 on a cyclic diagram.

Interesting I'd assumed we would be looking to South Wales for the load on the BAAs, hadn't thought about the ER. Incidentally, the steelworks at Trafalgar wouldn't use coil so we assumed these would just be passing by - unless we can use them with billet loads?

 

Checking the BR Database, I can't see any 40s at TE, (sorry Thornaby) in September '75. There was 47052/287/8/360/1/3 (assuming these were dual braked by '75).