Black Country Blues

[Guest Phil]

A WTT would be fantastic!

We initially (vaguely) said "mid '70s", we have some BAAs which puts us post '73 I think; 1974 - 76 that would probably suit most of the stock we currently have available, so how about 1975?

 

 

hmmm BDAs in the 1970s ? Would they (BDAs) be used on "backwater flows" I wonder ?

Dual braked locos would not be flush back then, and I'd guess they were used mostly in blocks to start with. Of course there is an argument that they wouldn't need to be piped up, and could run loose in vaccy head trips. I'll need to do some research.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Phil

[Stubby47]

I don't understand any of this thread, but it's really fascinating !

[Guest Phil]

I don't understand any of this thread, but it's really fascinating !

 

 

Arrr They'm all waggins ay they ar Aynuk.

[Arthur]

Hi ArthurI

think Phil is getting confused with the Pargate/Treeton flow I mentioned above.

It also ran from Beighton and or Tinsley at different times.

8Z29 would be a clue as Avenue was on the LMR....

 

Regards

Mike

 

Thanks for that Mike. I'd been following your posts on the traffic to Spring Vale and wondered if that was the explanation. Any other coke ovens in the East Midlands/South Yorks would have been able to supply the right type of coke.

 

Regards

Arthur

 

Hmmm

You learn summat every day !!!

 

You and me both Phil!! Had you mentioned any other coke ovens I wouldn't have noticed, just that Avenue was an unusual plant.

[2ManySpams]

Yup, should be fine.

[2ManySpams]

I don't understand any of this thread, but it's really fascinating !

 

Phew, not just me then! Thankfully Mark is on the case.

 

Now if it was the ACE to Padstow...now you're talking!

[mikeh]

A WTT would be fantastic!

We initially (vaguely) said "mid '70s", we have some BAAs which puts us post '73 I think; 1974 - 76 that would probably suit most of the stock we currently have available, so how about 1975?

 

I'll try and get something knocked up by the weekend for 1975 then

 

Regards

Mike

[Mark Forrest]

hmmm BDAs in the 1970s ? Would they (BDAs) be used on "backwater flows" I wonder ?

Dual braked locos would not be flush back then, and I'd guess they were used mostly in blocks to start with. Of course there is an argument that they wouldn't need to be piped up, and could run loose in vaccy head trips. I'll need to do some research.

Think the BDAs would be a little later? We imagined the BAAs passing by with a coil load en route to one of the local steel terminals (I've a photo of some at W'ton Steel Terminal around this time). I think I'm right in saying that W'ton Steel Terminal was still accessed from the ex-GWR mainline during our era; could that be another reason for traffic along our line which would access the GWR line at Wednesbury. Obviously there was Wednesbury Steel Terminal too.

 

 

I don't understand any of this thread, but it's really fascinating !

Phew, not just me then! Thankfully Mark is on the case.

 

Now if it was the ACE to Padstow...now you're talking!

I'd like to make this info as understandable and accessible as possible. Would some form of glossary be useful? If there are any specific aspects which need translating (TOPS codes?) do let me know either on here or by PM. (that applies to anyone reading this, not just Stu and Chris).

 

 

I'll try and get something knocked up by the weekend for 1975 then

Thanks Mike. Not sure if it makes much of a difference, but I thiink we would be on the winter timetable. I'll prepare a list of what stock we have currently available/planned for the first couple of shows it would be great if you could somehow twist reality to work these in (hope I'm not asking too much!). To begin with we're unlikely to have enough of the right vehicles to cover every working but a WTT will help to show where our gaps are and ensure we focus on the most appropriate stock as we expand the fleet.

[5 C]

Oh yes a D9. There are several decent die cast models about in various liveries (including WMPTE), but might need some fettling to get rid of the join between the upper and lower deck castings.

 

As far as I know, no die cast manufacturer has produced any BMMO designed single deck service buses suitable for the BCB era. There is an LS18 BET bodied Leyland Leopard but it's not a pure BMMO design. On the whitemetal kit front, W&T/Scalelink produce models of the D9 and the S23 but I've never seen either of them in the metal and the website photographs are less than brilliant.

 

Andy

[28XX]

Just a representation but there is a paper there... along with the Thermos and bait tin (what's the BC name for this?).

Bait tin = Snap box.

[Stubby47]

_{As I understand things, there are several points you are trying to address..}

 

_{Firstly, the BCB line is ficticious, but is being fitted into a real location. This means the existing traffic flows need to be assesd and amended to provide through traffic along BCB. This traffic is determined by the source and nature of the raw materials needed by the local industry and the type of goods and distribution points for the goods produced by those industries.}

 

_{As the line is mainly a freight relief line, there are no requirements for passenger stock movements, specifically and especially no green coaches pulled by locos with funny circular holes in the wheels. (Even in my limited geographical knowledge, this line is a bit too far off-route for the ACE to Padstow...).}

 

_{The next issue is one of time. Different industries in the Black Country over the years required different types of wagon, thus the correct types for the era need to be selected.}

 

_{Taking BCB as modelled as a intermediate point on the line, passing freight flows that would need to use the sidings are considered, plus the inward and outward requirements of the off-scene industry accessed via the branch. (Given the amount of exchange sidings, I'm assuming the branch will be quite busy ?)}

 

_{An additional consideration is the use of which locos would be used, bearing in mind their home depot and range. Along with this are the requirements for and conditions of suitable wagons for the freight carried, again with reference to the time frame.}

 

_{So, all that is reasonably straight forward.}

 

_{But, when it comes to the TOPS codes, lists of train codes and something called a WTT, I get a little lost...}

Edited December 5, 2012 by Stubby47

[PhilJ W]

If it's 1975 a Leyland National would be possible, but it would be almost brand new. Registration numbers would be no later than the 'L' suffix year letter. On the subject of registrations the 'L' registrations were the first where reflective number plates were compulsory.

[wagonbasher]

Surley the WMPTE daimler fleetline is the quentisential Bus for our area with over 2000 fleetlines in the WMPTE fleet. The earlier ones still had the birmingham corporation karki roof (of tram origins) - I know that your first thoughts are leaning towards Birmigham but in the 70's WMPTE's domination was all encompasing, Walsall, Dudley, Wolverhampton, Birmingham and all points inbetween. I was spotting Buses in the late seventies and the west midlands and the potteries was very much my patch. Midland Reds were a fraction of the traffic compared to the blue and creams.

 

 

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/walsall1955/4652408066/

 

Andy

[Arthur]

I would be interested in producing a WTT for the line if it would help?

 

Not being familiar with TOPS codes, when I read that from Mike, I thought he was offering to build some wagon coded WTT, seriously. It wasn't 'till I read subsequent posts that realisation dawned.....

Yes, something on TOPS code would be very useful and interesting.

[R A Watson]

We used to send old Ford engines and receive the reconditioned ones from Beans Industries at Tipton on the back of open trailer arctics (that's how I learnt to tie down and sheet loads properly) pulled first by 6D Thames Traders and later D1000 tractors (no comments here from diesel freaks please!).

 

The engines were all in their individual wooden crates and loaded by hand, so a pile of small crates under sheets is all that is needed.

 

Wally

 

Ps perhaps a new engine could "fall off the back" for the Cortina.

[Stubby47]

Here are my further thoughts on the derelict building Bill has taken over.

 

It used to be called Warners, apparently...

 

 

The real wall, for reference :

 

Edited December 5, 2012 by Stubby47

[KevinWalsh]

This thread is proving to be fascinating, I have an image in my head of OG stood on his podium behind the layout complete with conductor's baton and WTT (in the place of music score) taking charge of the operators. Naturally he will be impeccably dressed in dickie, bib and tails (need a tongue-in-cheek emoticon).

[Stubby47]

WTT - Working Time Table ???

[Indomitable026]

This thread is proving to be fascinating, I have an image in my head of OG stood on his podium behind the layout complete with conductor's baton and WTT (in the place of music score) taking charge of the operators. Naturally he will be impeccably dressed in dickie, bib and tails (need a tongue-in-cheek emoticon).

 

Yeah!

 

Until someone talks to him, then it will become mayhem

[The Stationmaster]

WTT - Working Time Table ???

 

Spot on Stu. Not that it has anything to do with TOPS wagon codes incidentally - they are part of the fodder for the Freight Train Loads Book, the publication which shows what loads the trains in the WTT convey, the permitted tonnage of the trains and the formation of the different marshalling sections plus any special marshalling requirements for different types of wagon.

 

The Loads Book was (and probably still is) regularly reissued but it forms part of the White Pages of the Working Manual For Rail Staff (WMRS) which told folk everything about freight working and how to do it.

 

The next thing down from the WTT was the Trip Booklet which effectively was a sort of WTT for a local area including trains which only worked locally (know, logically, as 'trip freights' or 'trips').

 

 

Incidentally on the LMR (and indeed elsewhere in the 1970s) the WTT was usually reissued twice a year (usually called 'Winter Timetable' and Summer Timetable' and was then altered by Supplements (which appeared at 8 weekly intervals after the introduction of Flexible Rostering for Drivers). In addition Special Traffic Notices were published altering the timetabled freight service for the following week and the programme was further altered by Daily Notices which either altered the information in the weekly notices or made further alterations to the basic WTT. The notices were referred to by various names but overall they were part of 'short term planning (STP). Another thing which was sometimes done by notice was a programme of which trips were definitely required, or were definitely canceled, for the coming week (and a lot of this no doubt got altered again on the day of the race). Finally in the pre-published arena there was a publication called the Manual of Agreed Pathways (MAP book) which contained several hundred (per BR Region) pre-timed train pathways which could be activated by means of the weekly and daily notices or at short notice - on the LMR in the 1970s I would think most of them were still at steam loco timings because even in 1992 the Crewe MAP book contained quite a number of trains timed for 8F haulage!

 

Going beyond that there were (and still are in some respects) trains arranged at short notice by Control Offices or local yard supervisors. In some cases planned services included a type of train called 'Manned Conditional' which meant the train was resourced for men and power but that was it - available traffic on the day decided whether it actually ran and where it went although the WTT usually included paths for it to its most common destinations, sometimes these were referred to as Q trains - Q meaning 'runs as required'. Another term you may come across is a Y path and this was a train which had a timetabled path to more than one destination - its actual destination being decided, usually, in the weekly notice; a good example was the fertiliser trains from Ince & Elton which might go to Truro one week and Carmarthen another but which ran in the same path as far as Gloucester.

 

Now you know more or less all of it - a few Regional and local variations aside - but the above is more or less as it was when it was finally standardised across all Regions in the late 1980s/early '90s. And you got all that for free - once upon a time going through and explaining that lot on the BR Train Planning Training Course was my regular (second) job, but then I had a couple of hours to do it .

[Stubby47]

Brilliant Mike, thanks !

 

So, using the various publications, a bobby at a junction would know which route to set for an approaching train ?

[MichaelW]

Ditto for the driver, and hopefully the two would agree? What happened if they didn't?

[beast66606]

Brilliant Mike, thanks !

 

So, using the various publications, a bobby at a junction would know which route to set for an approaching train ?

 

Not necessarily, signal boxes used routing codes so that the junction would know where to send the train, or train describers were used at big stations between the boxes, when they were closely spaced and lots of alternate routes existed.

 

For example,

 

Consider a light engine from Birkenhead Shed, joining the main line at Green Lane Junction.

 

For Chester it would be belled as 2-3

For Ellesmere Port it would be belled as 2-3-2-2, the signalman at Hooton knew 2-3-2-2 meant send it down the branch, control and/or Green Lane (the originating box) would inform him where it was going, he would then ring the target box (No.5 ? Yes?, Next ones for the Jarrow, Ta <crash of phone>)

 

WTTs were rarely consulted when I was around the boxes.

[Guest Phil]

Not necessarily, signal boxes used routing codes so that the junction would know where to send the train, or train describers were used at big stations between the boxes, when they were closely spaced and lots of alternate routes existed.

 

For example,

 

Consider a light engine from Birkenhead Shed, joining the main line at Green Lane Junction.

 

For Chester it would be belled as 2-3

For Ellesmere Port it would be belled as 2-3-2-2, the signalman at Hooton knew 2-3-2-2 meant send it down the branch, control and/or Green Lane (the originating box) would inform him where it was going, he would then ring the target box (No.5 ? Yes?, Next ones for the Jarrow, Ta <crash of phone>)

 

WTTs were rarely consulted when I was around the boxes.

 

 

Similarly, back in steam days drivers used whistle codes to let the signalman know where he wanted to go, if the bobby didn't already know.

[Stubby47]

Again, many thanks guys. There is so much inherrent knowledge I know nothing about !