Black Country Blues

[Mark Forrest]

If they are of any use, I'll send you these to have a play with.....

 

 

[2ManySpams]

I'd vote for open as it's likely that we're in a working day and they may be expecting one of the lorries being built by WF.

[Worsdell forever]

Thanks Mark, should be able to do something with most of them. My address is on the PM conversation.

[2ManySpams]

Just to clarify... I think what we're looking for is not cottages or farm houses but a small ramshackle collection of brick / corrugated iron / timber stores that have seen better days and are now being used to store a variety of equally tatty junk - old farm equipment / barrels / tat etc. single story and the whole lot surrounded by undergrowth. This end of the layout is semi-industrial rural - pasture in the past but having been surrounded by the nasty Black Country! probably didn't explain myself very well at the start.

[wagonbasher]

Can I add a very sorry caravan - the 1950's rounded type

 

Andy

[Mark Forrest]

I remember The Pilot being an M&B house which led me to track down the emblem of William Butlers who were taken over by M&B

We'll need one of these then.

Fortunately one of them lives in my exhibition tool box (along with tea bags and a pack of paracetamol)

[Guest Phil]

Some great info there Phil, thanks very much. Although we are initially focusing on the '70s, future intentions are that we can model other eras too so this is very much of interest and paints a very tempting picture (even for me!)

 

If possible, I'd like to include a block train of either oil or cement passing by; any thoughts on how we could twist reality to get either of those along our line?

From memory I think there was oil for Ocker Hill, but not sure on the dates.

 

Both of these should be relatively plausible dependant on how well you believe in your BCB world. You need to try and get Mikeh to give you some flavour of the mass of industry along the branch from Wednesbury to Darlaston, but from your story I am seeing the branch access from the Grand Junction end as crucial to your traffic. If you assumed that your Grand Junction access lay from the Portobello end then your cement would probably come from Penyffordd via Salop and Wolverhampton High Level. This follows the principle of flows from Penyffordd to Oakengates and Curzon Street, which were Sulzer type twos and / or class 40s. I have a photo somewhere of a 25+40 combo heading along the goods line curving round towards Abbey Foregate. Oakengates traffic was often carried through to Curzon St, then returned with the empties, to be put off from the Down line - as a track diagram will explain.

 

The plausibility factor is quite high for me, assuming that another Castle Cement / Tunnel Cement terminal would be provided in the Black Country, in addition to the Curzon St location. this would "compete" with the Blue Circle terminal at Handsworth.

 

Alternative sources of traffic could be from Tring, routing either Rugby, Stechford, Aston and Darlaston, or the Blue Circle traffic from Earles which came across the South Staffs via Lichfield and Walsall, thence via Pleck and Darlaston.

 

I assume you are thinking of blocks of Presflos Mark, but these were replaced by PCA type air braked tanks later in the 1980s. Pairs of 24s, then 25s were replaced by pairs of 20s then class 56s on the Penyffordd flows whilst class 47s worked the Earles-Handworth flow, occasonally supplemented by pairs of 33s on the Tuesday only Northfleet-Handsworth service, worked by Banbury men. At a push I suppose you could route the loads from Northfleet straight on at Perry Barr and Bescot, then tun left at Darlaston !!!

 

 

 

As for oil traffic for Ocker Hill, this originated from several refineries, and this traffic could probably be easily represented from Thames Haven, Immingham or Stanlow. The traffic from South Wales would logically have run via Dudley to Wednesbury. 45 ton or 100 ton tanks mostly class 45s and class 47s in the 1980s, probably also in the 1970s, although the Thames Haven traffic may have been AC traction from Willesden to Nuneaton, for an LMR type 4 or 2x25 forward.

 

There were trains of oil into the Patent Shaft and I believe Ned Williams has published a photograph of a TTG 47 on some 100 ton tanks in the Patent Shaft works.

 

 

 

One fact I have been pondering concerns the gradient profile of your railway relative to the profile of the "adjacent" South Staff line. Imagine a train of coke from say Avenue coking plant to Spring Vale for a moment. These ran as occasional specials and I have seen photographs of three different trains carrying the headcode 8Z29, and worked by blue 31 or blue 37. I believe they worked via Derby, Wichnor and the South Staffs to Wednesbury, then via the P&O to Spring Vale. Although the gradients weren't particularly severe as far as Wednesbury, the branch via Princes End employed banking for heavy trains. Perhaps coke wasn't the best example, and perhaps raw materials for Spring Vale might have found a more favourable climb up onto the Stour Valley from Darlaston, than via Wednesbury and Princes end. Or maybe it is that triangular junction just off your boards where the real gradient lies !!!!!!!

 

To me there is an absolute wealth of "what if" to be had in "BCB" - probably limited only by your mind. Again, my mind tends to automatically go back to the 1960s rather than the 1970s, because there was far more going on, but in the mid 1960s there was OLE structure rnanufacturing taking place, and OLE ironwork left Wednesbury on bogie bolsters every weekend during the LMR electrification programme.

 

One even more enticing traffic which came out of the Patent Shaft at Wednesbury were the "ghost trains". These were various African railway multiple units and coaching stock constructed by the Patent Shaft for Metro Cammell. These trains generally came out on a Saturday night running as "X"s because the signalling staff sometimes had to move signals, and slew the stock over, to get them to Liverpool docks for export. There is very little written about this but an Oral History account recorded by Walsall historian Jack Haddock was verbally documented by a railwayman.

 

Finally on the subject of exceptional loads, some very large;pressure vessels were transported from Ettingshall Road to the Aire Valley, via Bloomfield, Princes End, Wednesbury, Walsall and Lichfield. There may well have been a preference to have run these via the BCB route. Which reminds me, have you picked location names yet ?

 

 

 

Food for thought

[Jason T]

Pretty much what I was thinking Chris; a house there would just look wrong (if you see what I mean - obviously you do ).

 

An old barn and associated outbuildings, however, once used to keep livestock in but now that urbanisation has encroached on what was the farmland is used to store a whole manner of crap that is not necessarily farm related, makes much more sense.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Sandside

[Mark Forrest]

Food for thought

Well that's quite an understatement - it'll take me a while to digest that lot!

Many thanks once again Phil, gives me some great ideas; just a matter of how many we can get sorted for our February deadline and how many become future projects

[Guest Phil]

Not really relevant to thread per se, but still of interest

 

 

A shot of the thrice weekly cement empties from Curzon St to Penyffordd, held on the Down through at Wellington, for the Euston-Salop to run in front. It is interesting to note that the "Brush" on the passenger train is one of the "Generators" (47401-420) which could sometimes provoke a problem for controllers when a small number of drivers refused to take them. This was on account of their Westinghouse brakes, as distinct from Davies & Metcalf on the "standard" 47s.

 

Not a very useful caption but I imagine this floats your boat Mark ?

 

http://www.derbysulzers.com/25freightwood.jpg

 

Whilst googling cement train Shrewsbury, I came across this enticing image, which has very little to do with the topic, but look at the very clean Cravens DPU in the image with a pre BR van as tail traffic.

 

http://www.derbysulzers.com/1038shrewsbury73.jpg

 

Back to the cement theme - this small image suggests that the Oakengates traffic on this day was run round at Madeley Jn. It seems to me that the train is backing across from the Up line onto the branch to run round, before heading back to Oakengates on the Down

 

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3120/5722574915_2b9b7fd3cc_m.jpg

 

This shot by Peter Tandy shows a pair of 25s on the air braked cement tanks passing through Bescot

 

http://www.petertandy.co.uk/25244_051_bescot_300484.jpg

 

 

 

 

Presume you have seen this image ?

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/granradjd/5557656799/sizes/o/in/photostream/

 

and of course this ;

 

http://www.bescot.plus.com/fullsize/Western_6V06.jpg

[Andy Y]

One fact I have been pondering concerns the gradient profile of your railway relative to the profile of the "adjacent" South Staff line.

 

Yes; it's tough going off-scene with a 1 in 63 from Gospel Oak up to Princes End. The steepest section is that from James Bridge to Darlo but in the parallel universe at least that's been eased to tunnel under (and miss) the delights of Darlo.

 

[wagonbasher]

Andy Y. Sorry forgot you would know the Stafford puds..

 

Pub 1

 

Not sure if open or shut but last name was the Tavern - opposite the civic offices. In my day the pub was called something like the baths / the brine baths.

 

Thyis pub is located on the junction of Greengate Street, Mill Bank and South Walls

 

The Curry pub was was the Kings Head. It is situated on Foregate street opposite the old Stafford General Infirmary (the old building in front of Wickes). If you type "stafford kings head foregate" in google images you should see the Eagle

 

Whilst checking my facts I have answered my own question:

 

The brewery was the William Butler Brewery in Spingfield Wolverhampton and yes it is a hop not a bunch of grapes.

 

Thanks for joining in.

 

Andy

[Guest Phil]

Thanks Andy. That gradient profile is really interesting, as I would have expected a steady pull from Darlaston up towards Princes End, or perhaps that is how the engineers would have done it, with some embanking.

 

Very interesting

[Andy Y]

In my day the pub was called something like the baths / the brine baths.

 

Yer older than you look. In my yoof it was Pitchers but in yours it must have been the Bath Hotel.

 

Hadn't noticed the eagle on Abdul's (as is now).

[Coombe Barton]

Just found "The relationship between agricultural development and industrial growth 1660-1880: a case study of the Black Country - an MPhil; thesis from Birmingham University http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/3030/

 

Looks at historical developments

[wagonbasher]

Pretty much what I was thinking Chris; a house there would just look wrong (if you see what I mean - obviously you do ).

 

An old barn and associated outbuildings, however, once used to keep livestock in but now that urbanisation has encroached on what was the farmland is used to store a whole manner of crap that is not necessarily farm related, makes much more sense.

 

By George he's got it....

 

bring on the whole manor..........

 

Andy

[Coombe Barton]

An old barn and associated outbuildings, however, once used to keep livestock in but now that urbanisation has encroached on what was the farmland is used to store a whole manner of crap that is not necessarily farm related, makes much more sense.

Barns usually store feedstuff, not livestock. Try the Avoncroft museum threshing barn as a possible, but from outside the area.

[Coombe Barton]

There's some stuff here from English Heritage - this time in area

• http://www.english-h...one-Plateau.pdf
  
• http://www.english-h...d-Cank-Wood.pdf
  
• http://www.english-h...ts/97-Arden.pdf
  

 

And having found these - the whole country's National Character Areas http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/publications/nca/searchpage.aspx

Edited December 3, 2012 by Coombe Barton

[BG John]

A run down smallholding, maybe occupied by a reclusive junk collector, or an elderly owner who can't manage it all any more? The buildings could be on a smaller scale than for a full size farm.

 

This was West Wales in 1967, but kind of what I'm suggesting.

[2ManySpams]

Pretty much what I was thinking Chris; a house there would just look wrong (if you see what I mean - obviously you do ).

 

An old barn and associated outbuildings, however, once used to keep livestock in but now that urbanisation has encroached on what was the farmland is used to store a whole manner of crap that is not necessarily farm related, makes much more sense.

 

Bang on!

[mikeh]

Phil alerted me to this a short while ago and it's too late to write much tonight but I would point out the only signalling on the Darlaston loop proper were the homes protecting the crossing at Fallings Heath. There were stop boards at Patent Shaft and Fallings Heath and permission of the Shunter in charge was needed to pass those. The loop served, from the James Bridge end, F.H. Lloyds steelworks, E.C. & J Keay's Siding (Keays made the steelwork for Snow Hill station), various GKN Sidings (Atlas, Alma, Britannia, Bonas and Britannia New Sidings), Darlaston Steel & Iron (a separate branch serving Bradley & Foster (pig iron) and Charles Richards & Co (nuts & bolts), Charles Siding (Chas. B . Pugh - coal & scrap), Old Park Works - Metro Cammell, Central Wagon Co. - wagon works, Patent Shaft Steelworks, Prothero Tube Works and Dunns scrapyrd plus various others over the years.

 

One note from the S.A. that might be of interest

 

Trains working at Messrs Keay’s and Guest Keen & Knettlefold’s Atlas and Alma Sidings or the Darlaston Steel and Iron Company’s Sidings and using either of the running lines for shunting purposes, were required to have either a brake van or the engine at the Darlaston end of the wagons. If a brake van, the brake was to be secured by a chain, and in addition a sufficient number of wagon brakes were to be pinned down and sprags used, to ensure control of the wagons. The Driver and Guard were instructed to confer on the number of wagon brakes to be pinned down between Charles’s Siding and Darlaston Junction.

 

The loop was severed at the Darlaston Jn end in November 1964 and thence worked only from the Wednesbury end. It was designated a siding in 1966 and cut back to just the Patent Shaft in 1968 until closure in 1979.

 

Of course that only relates to the real world....

 

Other quick thoughts before I fall asleep - the oil siding for the Patent Shaft was off the GW at Wednesbury Central at the old Monwaty Works siding. Traffic came friom Lllandarcy or Imminghjam.

Oil to Ocker Hill was worked as specials as required from Bromford Bridge or occasionally before closure from Fawley.

 

Coke to Spring Vale came from Corby or in the 70s from Parkgate, Treeton or Beighton, the latter with a Tinsley 31 or 45 as the usual power.

 

Will think more tomorrow

 

Regards

Mike

[Stubby47]

If such trains are running through BCB, ( and not knowing anything of the geography or railway of the area) will you be modelling some wagons with brakes in the pinned down state ?

[Enterprisingwestern]

That driveway still needs more sandpapering, nowhere near flat yet.

 

Mike.

[Stubby47]

Have slapped some paint on the 'concrete' to see how it looks...

 

 

It actually looks rougher in the photo than it really does, not sure why. I do need to run a piece of (don't tell Damian) sandpaper over it to remove some paint and bring out more of the under-colour, which might help with the bobbly bits.

 

Once the back wall and front walls & gates are on, plus some of the yard fittings, the floor should be less obvious and just 'there'.

 

11 'likes' to this post, but no comments as to whether it's actually any good, realistic, lifelike or anything else.

 

(As you can tell, I'm not sure !)

[Oldddudders]

11 'likes' to this post, but no comments as to whether it's actually any good, realistic, lifelike or anything else.

 

(As you can tell, I'm not sure !)

O ye of little self-faith - of course people like what you're doing! By all means be self-critical, but the original set of gates got plenty of likes too. Elsewhere on RMweb, Larry Goddard keeps ripping up his track to get it even better next time - but his layout is forever, whereas BCB is a study in modelling for a deadline. I think the BCB team will be quick to let you know if they feel you're not meeting their undoubtedly high standards.

 

Ok then - Stu: It looks great, mate!