Black Country Blues

[TheSignalEngineer]

Hi, I think you will find it was Stourbridge Jct South that closed in 73, the North box in 76, Andy.

Right and wrong I think Andy. Stourbridge Junction South definitely closed on 30th December 1973, as did Lye. The interlocking alterations at Stourbridge Junction Middle for the north end were commissioned on 31st July 1978. This photo http://www.flickr.com/photos/ingythewingy/6388733267/ gives the date for closure of the North box as 29th July 1978.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Roll up, roll up, come and see the prototypical one train per hour on BCB.

 

Mike.

[Mark Forrest]

I quite like the idea of one train an hour, plenty of time for cups of tea, biscuits and cream teas.

However even one train an hour will seem busy when you see the Sunday timetable.

[Indomitable026]

I quite like the idea of one train an hour, plenty of time for cups of tea, biscuits and cream teas.

However even one train an hour will seem busy when you see the Sunday timetable.

At this juncture Jonny Gringo is wondering how he could possibly speed up to meet this one train an hour requirement ......

[Mark Forrest]

You want me to set up the locos so that even at full speed they take one hour to travel from end to end?

[Andy Y]

Damian's already tested the concept.

[beast66606]

IMHO I think there is a subtle difference between operating correctly in accordance to say the Signalling Regulations and strictly adhering to a 24 hour real-time timetable at an exhibition. Correctly operated moves can be performed in compressed time, to provide (almost) continual movement.

 

 

Which is what we do on Widnes - I've relaxed one restricted move to keep things moving, but other than that the trains operate as the prototype would only a lot more frequently, in reality Widnes would have 8-aspect signalling to keep the trains moving. Incidentally, the two "starters" are both locked for a couple of minutes so they cannot be cleared too quickly after a train has passed, thus avoiding something which niggles me - trains following each other at ridiculously close intervals. 

 

I've been back and edited the gibberish I typed earlier.

[avonside1563]

In reality, as long as there is something moving out front and only brief pauses where nothing moves, prototypical operation when conflicting moves are taking place is entirely possible, however it will mean bringing the full team up to speed with relevant regulations and operating practices.

 

In my crystal ball I can see a full up practice session with the likes of The Stationmaster, Beast and The Signal Engineer in attendance to instruct and inform.....

[DonB]

In my crystal ball I can see a full up practice session with the likes of The Stationmaster, Beast and The Signal Engineer in attendance to instruct and inform.....

Have those three gentlemen ever knowingly been together in one room? Their total experience and breadth of knowledge is impressive.

 

It sounds like you will need a lecture theatre to accommodate the whole "gang".

 

The outcome could be the requirement for a total re-design of the trackwork.......... Ducks and runs for cover!

 

More seriously, I think that one or more of them could do an entertaining and informative talk "How to run your model railway in a prototypical manner" at one of the BRM exhibitions,

After all, we have heard AndyY talk on Photography and now demonstrate how to pose models so that they can be criticised, we need a counterbalance here. 

[Gruffalo]

Have those three gentlemen ever knowingly been together in one room? Their total experience and breadth of knowledge is impressive.

 

It sounds like you will need a lecture theatre to accommodate the whole "gang".

 

The outcome could be the requirement for a total re-design of the track work.......

 

 

Now I for one would be happy to see such an enterprise but where? An RMWeb Members' Day somewhere, probably with Doombar on tap, pasties fresh from the land of the Captain and scones with clotted cream and home made jam? Oh dear, my fantasies require Nurse to bring my medication...    One thing's for sure, Warley won't offer such delights.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Gruffalo

[westerner]

All this talk of Doombar makes me want to wander up to my local. Come to think of it I probably will later this evening.

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

The outcome could be the requirement for a total re-design of the trackwork.......... Ducks and runs for cover!

. 

 

Only once in the real world did I declared a layout impossible to signal given the rules as they stood at the time. It got changed. Mind you, there were a few where I said "Yes, I can signal it, but can you operate your proposed timetable through it?"

[The Stationmaster]

Only once in the real world did I declared a layout impossible to signal given the rules as they stood at the time. It got changed. Mind you, there were a few where I said "Yes, I can signal it, but can you operate your proposed timetable through it?"

Hmm - that reminds me of a certain NR signal engineer who told me that a train would get a signal check if the train coming off the single line in the opposite direction was running late.  I then patiently explained to him that was why I had made sure in my layout proposal that there would be a full overlap immediately in advance of the next signal, which protected the entrance to the single line, so the train might well be checked by a single yellow but at least it wouldn't be stopped by a red aspect. He still couldn't se it for some reason  

[Guest Bob S]

Saw BCB at Peterborough.. Superb layout and some of the best scenic touches I've seen on a layout for some time... The road vehicles with the doors open and the bonnet up, excellent.

 

My one comment and it's not a critisism, is that everything seemed to be running at the same uniform slow speed....Different trains will run at different speeds. Even shunting movements would vary in speed depending on what was being done. For me, getting realistic running on a model railway is all about getting the acceleration and deceleration right rather than doing everything slowly...

 

Having said that, top layout chaps, look forward to seeing it many more times....

 

Bob

[The Stationmaster]

Saw BCB at Peterborough.. Superb layout and some of the best scenic touches I've seen on a layout for some time... The road vehicles with the doors open and the bonnet up, excellent.

 

My one comment and it's not a critisism, is that everything seemed to be running at the same uniform slow speed....Different trains will run at different speeds. Even shunting movements would vary in speed depending on what was being done. For me, getting realistic running on a model railway is all about getting the acceleration and deceleration right rather than doing everything slowly...

 

Having said that, top layout chaps, look forward to seeing it many more times....

 

Bob

Why shouldn't everything run at the same uniform speed - that's the whole purpose of line speed limits surely and on BCB that limit is unlikely to be any higher than 45 mph judging by similar lines in that part of the railway at that time.  And yes shunting speeds do vary but is it really possible in 4mm:1ft scale to accurately distinguish between something moving at, say, a scale 6-8mph and something moving at 15 mph? 

[Mark Forrest]

Thanks Bob, fair comment regarding speeds, acceleration and deceleration, something we can look to improve.

That said, I'm not that sure that there would be that much difference in speed between different trains - line speed is 30 in one direction and 40 in the other. I've already tweaked the CVs on a couple of locos based on feedback from the operating team, particularly the class 44. To some extent it is about learning how each individual loco performs, which I'm sure will cone with time and a little more practice.

[Coombe Barton]

The difference between 30mph and 40mph is that 30 mph is 0.58 ft/sec and 40 is 0.77 ft/sec scaled in 4mm. (a approximately yard in just over five seconds or a yard in just under 4 seconds respectively)

 

Not many people are going to really notice the difference between them. They're both going to seem slow to those used to watching passenger expresses.

 

And the 30 and the 40 are limits - not everything's going to be up there at the top.

Edited October 27, 2013 by Coombe Barton

[TheSignalEngineer]

Having worked a lot on the South Staffs lines in the BCB era the speeds of trains were pretty even. There were still a lot of 4 wheel wagons about and a lot of trains running as Class 7 and 8. Maximum permitted speeds for many formations were 35mph and 45mph. Uphill speeds were generally 30-35mph and downhill 45mph depending on the stock and braking power. Then of course if you were caught on the Block the average speed for the journey would be about 15-20mph if you were lucky.

[28XX]

Right and wrong I think Andy. Stourbridge Junction South definitely closed on 30th December 1973, as did Lye. The interlocking alterations at Stourbridge Junction Middle for the north end were commissioned on 31st July 1978. This photo http://www.flickr.com/photos/ingythewingy/6388733267/ gives the date for closure of the North box as 29th July 1978.

Hmmm yes I remember it a little too well.  I was training with Ken Adderley at the time, point-to-point testing the new wiring, Ken was in the signal box, I was in the relay room.  We were liaising via a temporary intercom.  He asked me to pull a certain connection out of a relay but I misinterpreted him.  The result was that the Up Starter 102 returned to RED in front of a passenger train.  Whiplash for the Kiddy / Worcester passengers, a telling off for me. :nono:

Edited October 28, 2013 by 28XX

[TheSignalEngineer]

Hmmm yes I remember it a little too well.  I was training with Ken Adderley at the time, point-to-point testing the new wiring, Ken was in the signal box, I was in the relay room.  We were liaising via a temporary intercom.  He asked me to pull a certain connection out of a relay but I misinterpreted him.  The result was that the Up Starter 102 returned to RED in front of a passenger train.  Whiplash for the Kiddy / Worcester passengers, a telling off for me. :nono:

Did the same thing once when I accidentally dropped a track circuit at Leamington. That time it was a 'Rat' with about 15 loaded 'Dogfish' approaching the Up Main Home which was on a steep rising gradient. Train stopped quite easily but it took about 10 minutes to get it moving again. Driver's language could be heard above the noise of the Ford foundry.

[Mark Forrest]

Looking back on Peterborough show I think that on the whole, the locos and rolling stock performed reasonably well.  Having AJ couplings fitted to both ends of each rake (along with all locos and brake vans) simplifies turning round trains in the fiddle yards.  Having added a couple of extra locos (a class 44 and a(nother) class 24) we managed to stay (mainly) on region and in era with the locos, which hadn’t been possible before.

By way of a reminder to me of what needs to be done before our next outing (Stafford in Feb) here is a bit of a list of what didn’t go so well:

• 44005 – rapid acceleration and too high top speed (CV settings need adjusting)
• 31126 – can accelerate a bit too quickly
• 20073 – went up in smoke on Sunday afternoon!  Insulation on the pick-up wires has melted, luckily the (sound) chip has survived; loco needs a re-wire
• Twin Bolsters – still causing some issues when setting back into the yard, despite me tweaking the permanent couplings and doing some testing at a pre-exhibition running session.  We also need either more of these or some Bolster Es for the inbound steel billet loads
• Bogie Bolsters – tendency of some to lift the leading axle off the rail head, possibly due to positioning of the AJ pivot mount, which is behind the inner axle on a few of these
• Tubeliner rake – needs AJ on first and last vehicle checking for alignment as they had a tendency to drop their brake van.  A couple of the wagons still need brake gear fitting and transfers applying

If anyone else has any other observations I’d be happy to hear them.

[Stubby47]

At least one of the 25s shows red lights at the rear - not required with a following rake of wagons.

[Mark Forrest]

At least one of the 25s shows red lights at the rear - not required with a following rake of wagons.

Only if you press function 0!

 

However, you are quite correct 25145 does indeed have lights since it benefited from a donor chassis from one of the more recent (21 pin) releases.  As a rule I tend to remove them (or leave them switched off) as they are wrong more often than they are right.  Now, where did I put those wire cutters?

[Guest Bob S]

Why shouldn't everything run at the same uniform speed - that's the whole purpose of line speed limits surely and on BCB that limit is unlikely to be any higher than 45 mph judging by similar lines in that part of the railway at that time.  And yes shunting speeds do vary but is it really possible in 4mm:1ft scale to accurately distinguish between something moving at, say, a scale 6-8mph and something moving at 15 mph? 

 

You could do that, but it wouldn't be very realistic...

 

You are correct in that there's a max permitted speed for each section of line, but that doesn't mean every train would be doing that  speed. For instance in the era of BCB unfitted freights were limited to 25mph. There's also weight, gradient, available brake force, and whether the Signalman's awake to consider.

 

Look how the real thing moves...... They go slowly when there's a need to, and within the limits of the permitted speed, get em going at other times.

[The Stationmaster]

You could do that, but it wouldn't be very realistic...

 

You are correct in that there's a max permitted speed for each section of line, but that doesn't mean every train would be doing that  speed. For instance in the era of BCB unfitted freights were limited to 25mph. There's also weight, gradient, available brake force, and whether the Signalman's awake to consider.

 

Look how the real thing moves...... They go slowly when there's a need to, and within the limits of the permitted speed, get em going at other times.

Do you have the date when the speed of Class 9 [or 9(b)] trains was reduced from 35 mph to 25 mph as I don't seem to have anything prior to 1974 amending the speed?