Layout location

[Ray H]

Apologies if this is posted in the wrong area.

 

Having returned to modelling after the oft long lay-off I managed to negotiate space in a "spare" (bed)room for the layout. That space is approx 10'6"x 2'. However, having made a couple of frustrated attempts with OO BLTs I've spent the last few weeks looking at other layout designs. The current favourite is effectively an end to end single track branch passing loop with sneaky provision for tail chasing (and stock testing).

 

The smallest size that I can squeeze my favoured design into is around 3'6" deep by dint of using 18" radius curves and having part of the layout folded when not in use. This isn't ideal if I can find an alternative so I've started looking at other space options.

 

So that's the history, so to speak.

 

The garage is integral to the structure of the house and directly accessed from the house. It has had the roof insulated and floor boarding laid over rubber matting on the concrete floor. The Up and Over door is unlined but a false insulated partition had been erected on the inside thereof. There's no fixed heating but the internal garage door can be left open to share heat from the house and there is a small oil filled radiator to provide supplementary heat if required.

 

The garage currently contains several woodworking machines includinga lathe, numerous quantities of wood (some natural and some part man made e.g. plywood) and a large chip extractor. The floor and wall mounted cupboards contain hand and power tools and numerous other domestic items. With the exception of the lathe, all machines are on wheels.

 

The lathe has seen little use for several years and now that my convenient source of disposal of turned items has gone I doubt it will see much use in the future and I wouldn't really be missed if I disposed of it. A large space would be freed up in the garage if the lathe and associated rack of turning blanks is also disposed of.

 

Re-arrangement of the remaining woodstock - mostly off cuts of sheet material - and the machines could, I think, free up an area at least 7ft square and probably even larger. However, and there's always one of them!

 

I don't use the machinery excessively but it is used far more than the lathe and is often useful for those jobs around the house, our daughter's house (and the school where she teaches). So I'm loathe to be rid of them. I have thought of partitioning the woodworking area but I doubt I'd have enough room to manipulate anything other than small pieces of wood and very little man made boards within the oartioned area.

 

I already seem to manage to carry sawdust and wood chips into the house from the garage so am only too well aware of the likelihood of the impact of the output from the machines and tools.

 

My question is "Has anyone else built a layout in a garage that they also use for routine woodworking - a notorious originator of dust - and what impact, if any, has that had on their layout?

[HLT 0109]

An interesting problem! An integral garage sounds like a good place for a layout but the need to use most of the space for handling large pieces of wood and creating copious quantities of sawdust does rather put a dampner on the idea. If the layout were made as a portable one, it could be dismantled to facilitate the woodworking and could then be easily covered with a cloth to protect it from dust. However, if you want a permanent layout, I wonder whether you could make the baseboard so that it can be folded in half when you want to do woodworking; ie so that half can be raised to the vertical position thus creating a barrier between the woodworking and the layout to protect it from damage and giving more space to work in. A dust cover could then be attached to the garage wall and draped over the raised section. There is plenty of advice on this forum and elsewhere on how to deal with the track connections on folding layouts - obviously easier with only one or two two tracks crossing the join and at rightangles.

 

I must admit that I have not done any of this but I am sure it is possible. On the other hand, do you have available space in the loft ....?

 

Harold.

[Ray H]

There is available space in the loft and there would be more if we cleared some more clutter out. Unfortunately the headroom isn't good except directly under the ridge and even that is a squeeze.

 

I haven't ruled the loft out but it would really need to be the subject of a conversion and I've no idea what price they start from. The garage loft wouldn't be any use as it is too small.

 

I haven't totally given up on kidnapping more room indoors but would like to explore the various aspects of other options that I might be able to try before making a final decision.

 

It isn't so much that I use the woodworking machines that often, more a case of Sodde's law If I got rid of them (and they weren't that cheap) I'd immediately find a use for them (and if I didn't, my daughter probably would find me something to do that needed them)!

[Donw]

In my experience sawdust gets everywhere and some machine produce very fine sawdust which is even worse so I don't think sawdust and a scenic layout could live in the same space. If you are such with the small space the option of a station in the 10ft6inx2ft with a folding/packaway sections for a continous run may be the best solution unless you fancy N gauge. I would start on that you will learn a lot as you go and you may find other solutions to the space as time goes by. These could be a garden shed, moving the machinery into a workshed....

I carried out a loft conversion and put in a properstaircase near floors a bathroom and a 23ftx11ft railway room. Family circumstances then forced a moved. I did fully recover the costs in a higher price for the sale despite the property crunch. Not much use if you cannot afford the conversion or the extra mortgage payments if you borrow.

Don

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Radical thinking. Tell your daughter her inheritance has come early, and set up the woodworking shop in her home. Teach her how to use the machines as an added bonus. Fabricate your layout structure there, build the layout in your cleared and largely dedicated ex-garage/workshop...

[westcountryman]

Hi,

We've just had our loft converted, & have ended up with two decent sized bedrooms & a bathroom, with still more space still free for potential layouts in the future, & it cost roughly £25,000/30,000.

Obviously this included a finish to a very good standard, & all of the bathroom fixtures & fittings. I have to stress that this a the North Devon price, so possibly expect to maybe pay a bit more elsewhere, & that it was a fairly simple exercise to submit plans & get them passed by the local authorities.

So good luck with wherever your layout ends up, my main one is resident in our insulated garden shed, but, like I say, I've got plans for at least one of the bedrooms!

Cheers

Rob

[Ray H]

Our daughter is an assistant head teacher and barely gets time to eat and sleep let alone worry about using woodworking tools - but I take the point. I can't remember the last time she had a complete week away from school even during the holidays.

 

Her house is only small and her garden shed is already full with no space in the garden for a second. She'd love a garage but has to manage with off street parking so that's not an opportunity either.

 

We have a garden shed belongs to the gardner (my domestic manager) whom I doubt would sanction a second shed as she'd loose too much of the already tiny garden.

 

I guessed that mixing layout and machines was probably a non starter but I thought I'd ask to see if anyone else had managed to find a solution for mixing the two.

 

Thanks for the thoughts though.

[Deano]

If space is a premium, then I guess you will just have to make the garage work.

 

Just take sensible precautions, perhaps buy a cheap earlex vacuum cleaner to zap up the wood after use? Or set the same vacuum cleaner up as an extractor???

 

Make sure rolling stock is boxed away and the layout foldaway or lifts away into ceiling and covered. I'm sure you can make it work given the time to clean after you've machined some wood.

[Ray H]

I had an idea that that would be the likely figure - a lot just for a railway room. We've a four bedroom house and there's only two of us. We keep one bedroom (other than ours) ready for guests although apart from daughter who stays occasionally - she only lives ten minutes walk away - I can't recall the last time it was used as such and it always seems to take an age to prepare it (i.e. remove everything that we've slung on the bed) whenwe've had guests in the past!

 

The fourth bedroom is a little over 6ft square and is really too small for much more than the small office (of mine) that it has always been. The fouth bedroom, basically 7ft by 10ft, is where the presnt BLT resides (against one wall). The rest of the room is used domestic storage and where the other half has her office table. This is the room that I'd ideally like to expand the railway to fit, possibly even exchanging "office" space with my wife. Alas, I can't see how I can fit railway and all my other bits in the same room and still use the layout.

 

Unfortunately the dear lady is not too well at present so discussions on property deals are out of the question for the time being!

[HLT 0109]

I would think seriously about the loft and I wouldn't bother with an expensive conversion. My layout is in my loft and, like you, I can only stand up in the centre. I made an insulated enclosure, with the baseboards laid around the periphery. At the edges, the ceiling is only about 3' off the floor. My solution is that I normally operate from the centre and have a chair if I want to operate from the end. Some of the track-laying and scenery was a bit difficult but it worked. It depends of course on the design of the roofspace but what I did was quite easy and the weight is all borne by the main structural timbers or the party wall. Access is by a loft ladder with only a 2' square hatch opening

[ELTEL]

Old problem we never have enough space, as that new layout you wish to build is always larger than the allocated space.

 

I had the same problem and last I took the bold step to convert the internal garage into a proper modelling room. 16' x 8' my only restriction was that it still had to accommodate two upright freezers for all the produce from the allotment (the good lady's hobby)

 

Oh and I had to fund it

 

The total project came in at about £4000 which included planning postion, removal of the garage door a wall and double glazed window fitted and new floor, plastered, electrics and 3 double B&Q wall cupboards

 

A lot cheaper than moving house

 

The new home layout is now 17' x 2'3"

 

Oh how I wish it had been a double garage!

 

If you want help or advice send a PM

 

Terry

[Ray H]

The houses opposite have double garages - envy! Mind you, those envious thoughts were, at one time, directed towards using (all that) space for woodworking - we recently fitted out a narrowboat, nothing special but a lot cheaper than buying a ready made one!

 

The machines don't see that much use but as I have them I'm a tad loathe to get rid of them as they make life so easy (and would be very helpful for baseboard building).

 

The loft space access is only about 2ft square and that concerns me as my age advances and I presume my mobility decreases. Perhaps I need to look more closely at fitting a proper loft ladder which would require enlarging the opening. It would also be nice to have even a small window so I could tell if the sun was shining! (HLT; did you make the loft changes yourself and how much insulation did you fit? We only appear to have stud walls upstairs, does that make a difference as far as load bearing is concerned?)

 

I had a friend as a kid whose dad was a railwayman. They had a large loft layout but it was only comfortable up there for part of the year. I presume modern insulation soles that problem

 

I've recently been helping a friend exhibit his layout and have really enjoyed doing so and would like to think/hope that my layout may one day be invited to a show. Consequently I need to make sure that whatever I build is compact enough to fit through any access opening.

 

Thanks for all the ideas, please keep them coming.

[ELTEL]

Yes all the same problems.

 

I was lucky that a lot of clutter including wood and associated tools were donated to my local railway club. As I only live a mile away I can and do use the clubs facilities for the larger projects Baseboard building etc this leaves my model room for the layouts and modelling both for my own and club projects.

 

Tried the loft many years ago, and you have highlighted the problems, the idea of transporting a portable layout from loft to the car would not be easy and will get worse as you get older.

 

How about a purpose built workshop in the garden for your woodworking equipment and then convert garage.

 

Just a thought

 

Terry

[HLT 0109]

Ray,

 

I did make the loft changes myself but lighting and some flooring was already in situ when I bought the house (bungalow) in 2006. It was built in 1965. I did have some qualms about the effects of getting older but, actually, I have found that constantly climbing into the loft is keeping me supple! I can't really comment on the suitabliity of your house for the extra weight in the loft - you might need expert advice. In my case, I screwed the main supports to the party wall with next door, and to the main roof supports which are fixed to beams across structural walls.so I figured i was OK. Nearly four years on and no problems. The boards are 4' x 2' x 12mm ply and there are about sixteen of them so there is quite a bit of weight (plus of course the chipboard for the flooring). Nothing can be wider than 2' because of the hatch opening.

 

The enclosure is simply plaster board fastened to the cross-beams of the house. I did not provide any framework because it is almost impossible to lean against them as they are at the back of and almost entirely behind the baseboards. Each piece of plasterboard is about 3' x 2'. For insulation I used 2" thick celotex insulation board with aluminium foil on both sides - bought in 8' x 4' sheets and cut with a craft knife to get it through the hatch opening. I nailed them to the rafters - not thinking that the hammering might loosen the tiles! (The neighbours were very tolerant). In the event I was OK but i have recently made a small extension in the same manner and screwed the insulation to the rafters. I did get a price for a velux window - about £750 + VAT; it was cheaper to buy a portable air conditioning unit which I vent into the rest of the loft. I only need to use it occasionally. For cold weather I have a fan heater that I need to run only on a low setting. The total enclosure is 15'6" x 11'3".

 

If you are planning a portable layout, I tend to agree that the loft is not a terribly good idea but, for a permanent layout I think it is great.

 

Harold.

 

I thought a picture might help.

[Ray H]

Many thanks Harold.

 

What decided you on 50mm thick celotex?

 

I think we'd probably need to move our access hatch if the loft became a railway room as a ladder in position at the present hatch location blocks access to the bathroom.

 

I've just checked again and we only appear to have studdng internal walls upstairs so I doubt that I could go overboard with what goes in the loft. That said, we have had two people up there on several occasions and aren't aware of any problems that that caused.

 

I take it that you have built insulated stud walls at the two ends of the room.

[HLT 0109]

Hi Ray - sorry you have to wait so long for a reply - evenings are my time for RMWeb.

 

I can't remember the sequence of the thought process but, as I bought everything on the internet, I was keen to get as much as possible from one place to save on delivery charges and I got the baseboards, softwood and insulation from the same place. The benefits of the celotex are a) it is very light and easy to handle, B) it cuts easily for awkward places, c) it is rigid so is fastened under |(rather than between) the rafters, thus leaving air space under the roofing felt, d) it doesn't sag, e) it is soft if you bang your head which is why it is attached to the sides of the joists, f) I have found it to be a very good heat insulater. There is something supposedly equally good as an insulater that comes in a roll (can't remember its name) but it would have been much more expensive.

 

Loftladders can be a nuisance when lowered. I have a concertina type that needs no headroom in the loft. I have fitted it closer to one side of the opening than the other so that I can get past it to the rooms - OK if you are not of big build as my hallway is only 3' wide - but it happens to be next to a bedroom door when it is lowered so opening the bedroom door makes it easier.

 

As I said earlier, I cannot comment on how much weight your loft could take but whatever the total weight of the layout, it would be quite well spread if care is taken in planning the legs.

 

If the wall at the left of my picture is the one you mean, that is the party wall with my neighbour. It is covered in hardboard on to which my artistic son painted the backscene. The opposite wall (not in the picture) is where my cold water tank is and I cobbled together a frame of sorts onto which is attached single-skin platerboard so as to exclude the tank from the enclosure. I couldn't in all honesty call it a stud wall - it is frankly a bit of a bodge but it has taken the backscene well enough. None of the walls of the enclose that I have constructed is insulated other than by the single-skin plasterboard but it seems to work pretty well. I have a Min-Max thermometer in the enclosure and I have not seen it below 0c. Without the air conditioning unit, it has reached 40c but I have not had any problems with the layout as a result of the temperature changes.

 

As a matter of interest, I have covered the floor in foam rubber tiles - the sort used in children's play areas. They fit together like pieces of a jigsaw and are easily cut with a craft knife. They have made it easier on the knees and backside and prevent the clatter when you drop a screwdriver. On the other hand, if the screwdriver falls blade first, it will pierce it like an arrow.

 

I hope this helps your deliberations.

 

Harold.

 

edit - not sure how the funny face got there!

[Ray H]

Many thanks, once again. Will toss it in the melting put and see whether I manage to cook up something reasonable or end up with a sticky mess.

[edcayton]

For me there's no question. I'd go for a roundy in the 10x7 room. I would have it as high as I could to maximise storage space underneath it, and also to make the "duck-under" at the doorway as easy as possible. I would either re-hang the door to open outwards, or fit a folding type door (keeping the old one to put back should I decide to move later)'.

 

There is something magical about being in the middle of a roundy; it's like being part of the little world you have created.

 

Ed

[Ray H]

Luckily the door's no problem in the 10' x 7' room. Layout height is flexible although having said that the current layout started out on legs. However, since we moved the layout and it went from resting on its legs to resting on the shelving units, the height has increased by 2½ inches and that seems to have mead a considerable difference to the feel of the layout.

 

The 10' by 7' room is certainly the favourite and I need to decide whether I attempt to use all of it or whether I plan around only using part of it. It's all down to a bit of negotiation now I think!

[Pennine MC]

 

edit - not sure how the funny face got there!

 

Because you've typed a 'b' followed by a bracket, it recognises that as its 'code' - put a space between them and it'll go away.

[HLT 0109]

Because you've typed a 'b' followed by a bracket, it recognises that as its 'code' - put a space between them and it'll go away.

 

Thanks for that - I will watch for it in future.