Ozexpatriate Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Yes, but there are only 4 main roads to choose from when modelling the UK post 1923. You also have to look at the demographics of the customers - in most cases interest in a particular line drops off sharply outside its historical boundaries. You won't find many PRR models (or modellers) in Portland, Oregon (nor even in Niagara Falls, New York). Only a few of the western roads (e.g. SP, UP, ATSF, etc.) seem to have a wider appeal. This is very true, it was a big eye-opener for me as I model Southern but most of our trips to the States have been on the west coast, where anything east of the Rockies is quite hard to come by. On the other hand, my favorite shop in Florida has a great selection of south eastern road names. True indeed. The SP has an understandably big following here in Portland. A good example is the Spokane, Portland & Seattle Railroad. It's popular here and used very impressive motive power (like this), but I can't imagine anyone east of Idaho is the least bit interested. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 True indeed. The SP has an understandably big following here in Portland. A good example is the Spokane, Portland & Seattle Railroad. It's popular here and used very impressive motive power (like this), but I can't imagine anyone east of Idaho is the least bit interested. I live east of Idaho and I'm interested in it....! If the desire to model something is there, stock availability is just a minor issue to overcome... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
highpeak Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I think once you decide to model a road or a period that is outside the era you accept that there will be more work involved in modelling not just the motive power but things like passenger rolling stock, cabooses and some signature items of freight rolling stock. The emphasis shifts not from waiting for somebody to make R-T-R models for your road to looking for things to adapt, trying to find decals, searching for parts and so on. You'll either be scratch building or accepting compromises. You can have a lot of fun along the way! The focus in this thread has been on steam engines, but you could have the same discussion on passenger cars and cabooses once you move away from the big roads or back further in time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted March 23, 2012 Author Share Posted March 23, 2012 I live east of Idaho and I'm interested in it....! If the desire to model something is there, stock availability is just a minor issue to overcome... too true. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 SP&S I live east of Idaho and I'm interested in it....! If the desire to model something is there, stock availability is just a minor issue to overcome... This and this are interesting sites for the SP&S modeller - they pop up quickly on google, so doubtless you've seen them. The Hobby Smith in Portland has commissioned a SP&S SW-9 from BLI plus others. I've no connections other than I'm a happy customer of The Hobby Smith. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I think once you decide to model a road or a period that is outside the era you accept that there will be more work involved in modelling ......You can have a lot of fun along the way! The focus in this thread has been on steam engines, but you could have the same discussion on passenger cars and cabooses once you move away from the big roads or back further in time. ...Or modern-day Short Lines and Regionals.... For example, there are no decals made for the Minnesota Commercial Railway, as far as I know, although Atlas has done a Boxcar, and admittedly the loco types are probably also readily available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashley Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 I'm afraid the 'unique designs to each road' argument still hasn't convinced me. You'd be hard pushed to find any off-the-peg designs on mainline british railways until the class 59/66 (ROD excepted). Even smaller lines who bought in from manufacturers tended to get unique designs and when large companies bought in it was to their own design (I'm think Black 5s especially here, but I'm sure there's loads of others). It may not convince you, but the theory fits the facts, and until a better theory comes along it will have to do. Basically any british steam loco built post 1923 only ever had two owners (operating railroads!) at most and each design had the unique characteristics of their line. This doesn't seem to have stopped the British model manufacturers. America is a vast continent. The East/West divide is a physical things that colours people's perceptions. Furthermore, the American RR scene has not been coloured by enforced government interference at the level that the British one was; ther is no equivalent of the grouping or nationalisation. My understanding of the American RR development has been driven by technology and market forces, and is much more akin to the British Pre-Grouping scene that is only now (last 20 years or so) going through a market driven rationalisation of providers i.e: the big amalgamations like NS and BNSF etc. In my opinion, as such the market on the modelling side is more fragmented, meaning smaller amounts of each RRs models is highly likely, add to this the historical freelance local line model RRs that use to be seen when steam was popular e.g: G&D, C&S etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave1905 Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Part of the issue was that smaller model engines were notoriously poor performers. The size of the motors and the grear trains, the power pickups were all technically challenging to get get good performance. That's why a lot of the older HO steam models of smaller engines are somewhat overscale (to accomodate a larger open frame or pancake motor). As a result older prototype engine models gained a reputation as low quality and as operation became more important, people shied away from them. That lowered the chances that new equipment would be produced. The less equipment was produced, the less population and the fewer impulse buys were made. Thus the death spiral of pre-depression, pre-WW1 equipment. The irony is that as technology improved, the ability to produce high quality, good running, smaller engines improved. Some of the modern Roundhouse engines I have are as good as any diesels I had purchased prior to going to the 1900 era. People say that steam, small steam doesn't sell. That's because there is no infrastructure behind it, no cars. Probably the most sophisticated early steam (pre-WW1) equipment is made by Roundhouse. People say that early steam doesn't sell. If that was true then the hobby shop shelves, swap meets and a E-Bay should be awash in those models offered for sale. In reality those models are extremely rare, compared with other models. You can find dozens of WW2 era, older design, poor running engines and a few of the newer big engines. But the stuff that "doesn't sell" is sold out. Granted its never going to be a huge part of the market, but whats the real market for Erie Triplexes and Aerotrains? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted March 24, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 24, 2012 On the subject of "old" steam, there's a very interesting article on an O gauge Civil War era layout in the latest issue of MRP. What's interesting to my eyes is how modern a lot of the rolling stock looks compared to equivalent British designs of the 1860s. And the 4-4-0s of course are just gorgeous... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 My understanding of the American RR development has been driven by technology and market forces, and is much more akin to the British Pre-Grouping scene that is only now (last 20 years or so) going through a market driven rationalisation of providers i.e: the big amalgamations like NS and BNSF etc. Some similarities, many differences. The megamerger era that produced the likes of NS, CSX, UP and BNSF has parallels in the airline and aviation manufacturing industries. It's mostly derivative of business conditions in the last quarter of the 20th century. British pre-grouping also had lots of governmental 'involvement' in terms of requiring acts of Parliament to authorize railways. Aguably, Congress was also involved in promoting many pioneering efforts with land grants, notably on the CP/UP transcontinental railroad. Government has influenced railroads in the US though certainly not as much as nationalization in the UK. The banning of steam on Manhattan did a lot for electric traction at the turn of the 20th century. The Interstate Commerce Commission had a lot of influence on how the railroads did business. The USRA managed the wartime railroads at the end of WW1. Amtrak is of course a Federal government entity (technically a nationally owned corporation). But the biggest influence on US railroads is the immense distances involved. Compared with the UK, the distances make passenger rail less competitive (than aircraft) and bulk freight rail more competitive (than trucks). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 25, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 25, 2012 A casual glance through ebay just revealed a Bachmann HO 2-6-0, new, with rather fine-standard wheels and Soundtraxx sound fitted - about £83 including postage to Europe. This is from a seasoned ebay seller. The model may not be great - but how many UK steamers of any sort come sound equipped at that sort of price? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Hale Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Iain Rice's rebuild of the Bachmann 2-8-0 in MR has always been my own articular favourite, especially as it is featured in one of Kalmbach's excellent books (which one?). If I was not so heavily committed to building BR(S), this would one loco* have been my motivation for changing to a shortline. Tim *Unless I could buy a Sunset N&W 'Mollie', then I would have created a slice of the Appalachian's in Dorset. Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 I had a look a two flyers lying around the house over the weekend - the Walthers flyer for March 2012, and Historic Rail for Winter 2012. Between them they are promoting for immediate sale the following (smaller than 4-8-4) workhorse H0 locomotives, not counting the specialized logging locomotives or the civil-war era stuff: 0-4-0ST dockside B&O (Life-Like by Walthers) 0-6-0ST unlettered (Bachmann) 0-6-0 USRA GN, ATSF, UP** (Bachmann)* 4-4-0 American (Modern) Ma&Pa, SOU, unlettered (Bachmann) 2-6-0 Alco Mogul: PRR, NYC, CB, ATSF, UP, B&M, CN, UP (some DCC, Bachmann) 2-6-0 Mogul: DRGW (Roundhouse by Athearn) 2-6-2 Baldwin Prairie: UP, NYC, (Bachmann) 4-6-2 Pacific SP, unlettered, B&O, PRR, ATSF, UP, CPR, CN (some DCC, Mantua)* 4-6-2 K4 Pacific: PRR (Bachmann Spectrum) 2-8-0 Balwin Consolidation: WM, UP, ATSF, NKP, LNE, SP (DCC, Bachmann) 4-8-2 Mountain SP (Athearn Genesis) * Different tenders offered ** Different UP liveries offered Some of these suit the pre-WW1 period and most would suit the between the wars period. This is limited to what stock national retailers are trying to clear, not what shops might have, or what is on the way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave1905 Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Only the Roundhouse 2-6-0 is really appropriate for pre-WW1. The rest are post WW1 designs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Only the Roundhouse 2-6-0 is really appropriate for pre-WW1. The rest are post WW1 designs. Dave, I thought the Bachmann 'modern' 4-4-0 was advertised to suit the early 1900s. What period does this design represent? Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
highpeak Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Dave, I thought the Bachmann 'modern' 4-4-0 was advertised to suit the early 1900s. What period does this design represent? Thanks. One of the versions of the Bachmann engine purports to represent MEC 84, which was indeed built in 1901 as Somerset Railway number 2. Now, the engine bears a decent resemblance to MEC 4-4-0s that were originally built around the turn of the century but most of the published photographs of those engines are taken at a much later date. Looking at a couple of pictures of Somerset Ry engines when fairly new (source: Best of Maine Railroads, Ron Johnson) I would say that the Bachmann model looks more modern. The cabs and domes and headlight on the engines as built are different, and the smokebox on the model looks quite different. It's a nice model and is quite close as-is to some of the MEC engines as running in the 30s but looks like it would need some changes to represent the engines as built. I've been tempted by it a time or two, but the 4-4-0s had gone well before the period I am modelling (early to mid 50s). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 26, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 26, 2012 Ebay (US) currently has better than 20 different adverts for BLI 2-8-2s, both light and heavy with a choice of roadnames. There are also PRR M1a and M1b on offer, as well as bigger and more exotic locos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave1905 Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 The Bachmann Spectrum models can be backdated to represent pre-WW1 models by replacing the headlights and changing details. As delivered they are engines from the 1920's at the earliest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
highpeak Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 The Bachmann Spectrum models can be backdated to represent pre-WW1 models by replacing the headlights and changing details. As delivered they are engines from the 1920's at the earliest. That tallies with what I was seeing with the 4-4-0. That engine is pretty close to both MEC and B&M engines in the 30s. The 2-6-0 which is sold as a B&M engine is not as good a representation. The cylinders and valve gear are wrong as is the cab. Some older B class Moguls had a cab a bit like the Bachmann one, but the signature elements of a B-15, which were pretty late survivors on B&M branchlines and commuter service, are the arched cab window and the cylinders, neither of which are present on the Bachmann engine. You could get there, but it would be a bit more work than just moving sand domes around. The Bachmann 2-8-0 is a reasonable stand-in for a lot of Northeastern 2-8-0s, though it looks a bit on the chunky side to me. I'm not criticising Bachmann here, at least there is the basis for a representative if not exact steam roster for the later steam era. The BLI Mikes look good, getting hold of one seems to be the biggest issue. I've had one on order with my local hobby shop for weeks with no sign of any progress. MEC had half a dozen USRA light Mikes and the BLI one is a good match, the most obvious difference being a big air reservoir underneath the smokebox, which shouldn't be too difficult to add. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Grant 4472 Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 A casual glance through ebay just revealed a Bachmann HO 2-6-0, new, with rather fine-standard wheels and Soundtraxx sound fitted - about £83 including postage to Europe. This is from a seasoned ebay seller. The model may not be great - but how many UK steamers of any sort come sound equipped at that sort of price? I got a soundchipped one from Model Junction for £86.00 which arrived today. Nice looking engine, but I haven't tried it out yet. I'll report back when I get the layout back up BTW, the soundchipped ones are sold out now Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 27, 2012 And someone was looking for a N&W 4-8-0 ..... http://cgi.ebay.fr/BRASS-LAITON-LOCO-4-8-0-NORFORK-WESTERN-1053-MIB-/200734400909?pt=FR_YO_JeuxJouetd_TrainsElectriques&hash=item2ebcb3e18d Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 ^^^ Nice! I would say that currently, the US steam market is in a similar situation to what we had in the UK a few years back, if this trend continues we may yet see a lot more of the smaller, more useful locos coming out - in time! One can only hope this proves to be the case, in which situation we may well see the beginning of an era where a lot more steam based layouts start appearing. Cheers, John E. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gwinnett Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 And someone was looking for a N&W 4-8-0 ..... http://cgi.ebay.fr/B...=item2ebcb3e18d Oh la la. Je l'aime Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Steady on, Jon! Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave1905 Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 A lot of it boils down to creativity and luck finding parts. I have been playing around this evening in the basement and think I can get a reasonable P&R class B2-b 0-6-0 (Built ca 1870's, model as was in 1900) by combining a surplus Mantua 0-6-0T mechanism with a boiler and tender off an Aristocraft 4-2-2 basket case (from the 1960's or 1970's) with tender trucks off a Bachmann old timer 4-4-0 fitted with Intermountain 28" semi-scale wheels. If I could get ahold of another boiler I would consider making one with a 2 or 3 axle tender. It will make one amazingly ugly engine. 8-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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