Poor availability of US steam models

[Talltim]

Seeing the new Bachman announcements of more steam locos has prompted me to post about something I have been wondering for a while. Why is the range of model US steam locos so poor compared with the UK? (ignoring brass, they are kinda the equivalent of UK kits) There seems to be a reasonable range of the later and larger types, but anything older or small seems to have to be covered by very old mouldings or modifying Bachman locos. (I'm aware that older locos are also less well represented in the UK, but not to such an extent.)

While I am aware that with the US business model of independent loco building companies some locos are suitable for a variety of roads, but the bigger roads still built many of their own designs, yet my impression is that there many spurious liveried models out there, in a way not seen since the 70s here.

So why is the US offering poorer than the UK offering? Or maybe it isn't and I've misread it?

[Barry Ten]

I think the basic problem is that other than the Baldwin and USRA types - which as far as I'm aware are fairly well represented in HO and N - most of the other designs were confined to individual railroads or small families of regional railroads (eg the Berkshires on the van Sweringen lines). The history of American railroading is much more like our pre-grouping era than it is the Big Four - yes there are big companies like Union Pacific, New York Central and so on but these are still confined to specific geographic regions and there are dozens, maybe hundreds, of smaller regional companies. While it would be great for me if there was a range of accurate N scale Southern or Central of Georgia locos, the relatively small sector of the sales pie such models would account for would make them uneconomical.

 

There have been some conversion kits - eg, there is one to turn the Kato Mikado into a specific Southern prototype - but these are hard to obtain and for now I'm quite happy to run generic loco types or reasonable stand-ins. I might not accept it in HO but in N it seems like an acceptable compromise to get things running.

[Talltim]

I'd considered the fact that there were probably more loco types in the US than in the UK, but there is also a far larger market (I gather, this is always the argument for the reason why US models were of so much better quality for the price in the 80-90s) so it would presumably go some way to cancelling that out. Even if you ignore the smaller roads, there seem to be numerically very large classes of, for example PRR locos with no mass produced RTR models. For example there were 2,034 PRR H6s of various types, but no model. Compare to the Midland/LMS 4F (a slightly later loco I will admit) which is on its second model (and the Airfix one is still not bad despite its age)

[298]

There are similarities, for example the manufacturers seem to "cherry pick" popular prototypes and keep releasing all-new definitive models when other numerous examples should be represented, and assume certain roads are more favoured than others, but is this because they are unpopular because the models aren't currently available...?.

 

Personally I'm not too bothered what is or isn't available- If I want something, I'll build it, if I can justify buying it as a rare brass model that still requires some minor surgery, I will. There have been many Traction models produced in Brass and are still highly sought after, but only a few have made it into plastic.

[steve1]

From what I recall of Model Railroader articles over the years, there have been far less of the "Take RTR loco X and convert it into an ABC Railroad Mikado" than the equivalent articles in UK mags. On the other hand, there have been many diesel conversion articles.

 

When you look at it, quality/higher priced steam locos have only appeared in large numbers RTR in the last few years, such as the Bachmann range. Perhaps there isn't the demand?

 

steve

[Talltim]

It is noticeable that there has been a Bachmann led 'steam revolution' in the UK in the past ten years or so, and this started with predominantly BR, classes, i.e. ones that older modellers can remember and it has only once most classes have become available has there been a move to older and less universal locos. In the US locos the age of BR standards were diesels and you have to be pretty old to remember steam in use.

To argue against that, there are plenty of people that model thing before their time. Also, as touched upon above, some models seem to create their own markets, witness the Well tanks, and more generally the recent seeming reaching of critical mass of enough Southern (UK) models that means that modeling it with RTR stock become viable

[298]

Don't forget that steam was generally phased out alot earlier in the US than over here, so if anyone follows the 40 year rule then they are more likely to model the first to second generation diesel changeover. They also tend to build more operations based and sometimes fictional layouts where a close match could be re-lettered to suit their own Railroad.

 

Bachmann certainly created a market with their On30 range, It previously used to be a niche interest and I'm sure it's popularity was unexpected from all corners.

[highpeak]

What makes matters worse is the disappearance of a lot of the kits and parts that could, with some work, be used to make stand-ins. Bowser catered quite well to the PRR modeller, Roundhouse engines could be butchered into reasonable models, perhaps not up to current standards but better than nothing. You can still get hold of them via eBay, but the prices can be a bit steep.

There have been some interesting threads on Big Blue covering the building and adapting of these kits. The reality is that for a lot of roads the only way you'll get any steam is to butcher other models, and it helps if the raw materials are available and not too expensive.

[alastairq]

what we forget is that, over the past 50 or 60 years the US market developed along very different lines to the UK market...

 

Until recently, the UK really had RTR [basic, lots of shortcomings] from Hornby and Tri-ang, and onwards....plus the kit market.

 

whereas although the US started with 'almost-RTR [bowser, MDC, Mantua plus cheaper ranges from TYCO, AHM, etc... the more prototypical stuff came from the burgeoning [Japanese?] brass market.

 

 

Compared to this side of the Atlantic, prototypical models were more like RTR than kit.....and obviously, the more affluent US modeller was prepared to pay that premium.

 

For the Brit modeller, it was a case of 'kit, glue, solder and piercing saw', for the more 'ultimate' prototype model.

 

 

I had quite high hopes, at the time, for the various 'basic' brass locos...ie cheaper than usual, but add your own details? But, sadly, that was not to be..

[dave1905]

Most US manufactureres abandoned the steam era about 40 years ago. Every new engine with one exception has been a model of an engine in the 1930-1940's. There have only been a few models for the pre 1940's era(other than a craftsman kit) and virtually no new models of wood underframe cars (other than craftsman kits) produced in the last 40 years. Every older steam era car that is in procudction has be in production in one version or another for 35-40 years.

 

The manufacturers also realized they could charge more for a bigger engine, so you end up with more 4-8-8-4, 4-6-6-4, 2-10-2, 2-8-8-2, 2-8-8-8-2, 4-8-4, and 4-4-4-4 models than 2-8-0's. They make no sense from a prototype operations prespective, but modelers love them.

[TT3]

As a new US modeller it is pretty interesting to observe the differences in appoaches. I am modelling the PRR so diesels are no problem at all, rolling stock, not bad but for steam, I guess we are a little bit lucky to have the old superannuated minitrix decapods, k4s and 0-6-0s that can be modified into specific PRR prototypes.

 

I have found there is plenty of information in the form of RTR conversions, for example on my workbench are a few projects on the to do list - PRR H10 2-8-0 from minitrix B6 cab and K4 boiler and Bachmann consolidation, PRR L1 from GHQ body on kato mikado chassis, 2 X PRR I1 2-10-0 from a cut down minitrix decapod body and a PRR M1 from 2X trix K4s and a Bachmann heavy mountain chassis.

 

That will be the limit of my steam fleet, all need building and modifying to some degree so thankfully the supply of raw materials is still ok but kinda expensive.

 

What stuck me, partucilary for the PRR modeller was the similarity of the old 'Triang Princess to GWR castle' articules in the true kitbashing sence. Currently I am trying to pluck the courage up to strat cutting up the newish Bachmann steamers!

[dibber25]

When I first started modelling North American way back in the early 1970s I wanted to do a Civil War era layout - USMRR 4-4-0s and a stern-wheel paddle steamer. I went to Bernie Victor's wonderful record shop and he sorted me out three or four of the 'oldest' items of rolling stock you could get. They were Roundhouse and Athearn, and looking back, more suited to the 1920s/30s than the 1860s. I ran them with a Tyco 'General' 4-4-0 which was a CKD-style ready-to-run model but in unpainted self-assembly form. I still have it......somewhere. Sadly, mainstream RTR US steam extends mainly to celebrity locomotives such as the SP 'Daylight' and 'Big Boys' and 'Challengers' and that's about it. Incidentally, I was once told that the Rivarossi 'Big Boy' was the biggest-selling RTR locomotive of all time. David Boyle of Dapol, at that time, thought he could match it with an LMS Beyer-Garratt!

CHRIS LEIGH

[Talltim]

As a new US modeller it is pretty interesting to observe the differences in appoaches. I am modelling the PRR so diesels are no problem at all, rolling stock, not bad but for steam, I guess we are a little bit lucky to have the old superannuated minitrix decapods, k4s and 0-6-0s that can be modified into specific PRR prototypes.

 

I have found there is plenty of information in the form of RTR conversions, for example on my workbench are a few projects on the to do list - PRR H10 2-8-0 from minitrix B6 cab and K4 boiler and Bachmann consolidation, PRR L1 from GHQ body on kato mikado chassis, 2 X PRR I1 2-10-0 from a cut down minitrix decapod body and a PRR M1 from 2X trix K4s and a Bachmann heavy mountain chassis.

 

That will be the limit of my steam fleet, all need building and modifying to some degree so thankfully the supply of raw materials is still ok but kinda expensive.

 

What stuck me, partucilary for the PRR modeller was the similarity of the old 'Triang Princess to GWR castle' articules in the true kitbashing sence. Currently I am trying to pluck the courage up to strat cutting up the newish Bachmann steamers!

 

I don't really follow N gauge, I assume that is what you are talking about? If so I hadn't realised Bachmann made N stuff.

[PhilH]

Sadly, mainstream RTR US steam extends mainly to celebrity locomotives such as the SP 'Daylight' and 'Big Boys' and 'Challengers' and that's about it

 

Not sure this is strictly true, for instance the Bachmann Spectrum range features a few different examples, plus, if you are prepared to broaden the net and shop on Ebay or buy from the US Proto 2000 0-6-0 and 0-8-0 switchers, 2-8-4 and 2-10-2s are out there.

[Adrian Wintle]

There is a fairly large range from Broadway Limited (admittedly larger locos*):

 

http://www.broadway-...blueline-2.aspx

http://www.broadway-...paragon2-3.aspx

 

*note that the PRR used L1s Mikados (effectively equivalent to a USRA Heavy) for shoving cars around the Enola yards, so you don't necessarily need small locos...

 

Adrian

[Talltim]

I guess a lot of my problem is that I want earlier (pre WW1) locos. There aren't that many UK ones of them RTR either.

[Adrian Wintle]

I don't really follow N gauge, I assume that is what you are talking about? If so I hadn't realised Bachmann made N stuff.

 

In N-scale there is a reasonable list (some of which are junk)

http://www.visi.com/~spookshow/locolist.php?steam=1&nonbrass=3&sortby=4&Submit=Submit

 

Adrian

[Adrian Wintle]

I guess a lot of my problem is that I want earlier (pre WW1) locos. There aren't that many UK ones of them RTR either.

 

Almost nobody models earlier than the 1930s, and most seem to model 1940s-1950s if they model steam. This means that there isn't much commercial pressure to provide pre-WWI (or pre-USRA) models.

 

Adrian

[Talltim]

I guess this thread http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=64444 kinda sums up the (alien to me) reasoning behind the lack of steam in the US. Unlike the EMD/GE/Alco/Baldwin/etc diesels, which appeared on countless roads, most steam was specific to one or two roads and so won't sell as well in spurious liveries. On the face of it this seems reasonable logic for not producing steam loco models excepting the standards (USRA etc) and specials (Big Boy etc).

However, apply this same logic to the UK. Anything Pre BR is too distinctive to make in fake liveries so not economically viable, excepting some Coronations and A4s. Even BR standards don't have enough livery variations to be bothered with. Post BR, Hornby's Networker is produced in the livery of every TOC running any units in the country.

There's something wrong with this logic. If there is a market in the UK for a 3F produced only in real liveries why isn't there a market for the equivalent in the far larger US?

[Adrian Wintle]

I guess this thread http://forum.atlasrr...?TOPIC_ID=64444 kinda sums up the (alien to me) reasoning behind the lack of steam in the US. Unlike the EMD/GE/Alco/Baldwin/etc diesels, which appeared on countless roads, most steam was specific to one or two roads and so won't sell as well in spurious liveries. On the face of it this seems reasonable logic for not producing steam loco models excepting the standards (USRA etc) and specials (Big Boy etc).

However, apply this same logic to the UK. Anything Pre BR is too distinctive to make in fake liveries so not economically viable, excepting some Coronations and A4s. Even BR standards don't have enough livery variations to be bothered with. Post BR, Hornby's Networker is produced in the livery of every TOC running any units in the country.

There's something wrong with this logic. If there is a market in the UK for a 3F produced only in real liveries why isn't there a market for the equivalent in the far larger US?

 

Partly the issue is the sheer the number of railroads, and partly it is economics (and the two issues are tied together). From the 1920s there were really only four railways in the UK so you have 5 ranges (including BR standards) of locos that cover a substantial selection of the locos seen between the 1920s and the end of steam. In the US four railroads (say PRR, NYC, Reading, B&O) would cover a small geographic area (although substantially larger than the UK) and still not cover all the locos that would be seen in that geographic area, let alone in the country. Since modellers tend to have favourite railroads, producing the more esoteric locos for a given railroad (e.g. a PRR E6 atlantic) is likely not cost-effective due to the limited sales potential (which would also be very regional). The only things that would sell over the entire US are the USRA prototypes, which were used by lots of railroads, and the prestige locos that people will buy even if they don't model the appropriate railroad(s). Remember that, as a manufacturer, your potential market is only about 5 times the size of the UK market (just based on population - although there is probably a bit more discretionary spending), but is much more fragmented in its interests.

 

I'd be really happy if a manufacturer did a range of Pennsy prototypes in N, but I'm also realistic enough to realize that they probably wouldn't sell enough to recoup their investment except for a couple of prototypes (K4, I1, M1 would be the top ones).

 

Adrian

[CraigZ]

I'd be really happy if a manufacturer did a range of Pennsy prototypes in N, but I'm also realistic enough to realize that they probably wouldn't sell enough to recoup their investment except for a couple of prototypes (K4, I1, M1 would be the top ones).

 

Adrian

 

If you take a look at the plastic PRR steam produced in HO, apart from the K4 it's all "larger" engines - M1 Mountains, I1 Decapods, J1 Texas 2-10-4s, and the Q2. Meanwhile the H8/9/10 Consolidations were much more common as were the L1 Mikados. The feedback we get from manufacturers is that the production cost between a 'big' engine vs a small engine isn't that great, yet they don't believe that Joe Modeler will pay the same for a Consolidation or Mike as he will pay for a Mountain or Texas....yet the smaller prototypes are really what most of us would want for a home layout.

 

The Bowser engines were mentioned. Frankly, next to a BLI locomotive the Bowsers just don't run as well...noisier with higher amp draw. The exceptions are the late issue B6 0-6-0 and the A5 0-4-0. Bowser retrofitted the A5, and maybe it was a retrofit on the B6, with proper modern enclosed gear towers and a can motor. Those models run superbly, as good as anything from BLI. Yes, they're a lot of work but the B6 I built looks very very nice and runs great. I'd venture that if Bowser had fitted that drive into the older models they'd have sold better. See Jon Grant's 0-6-0 on his Sweethome Chicago videos...

[Oldddudders]

Well, let me see if I can remember what's in the US HO cupboard - quite a range, I think. Proto 0-6-0, Bachmann 2-8-0 (2), Genesis 2-8-2, BLI 2-8-2 (2 heavy, 2 light), Bachmann 2-10-0, BLI 2-10-2 (2), IHC 2-10-2, Bachmann 4-8-2 (2), BLI 4-8-4, Bachmann 2-6-6-2, Genesis 4-6-6-4, Proto 2-8-8-2. For 1950s steam that seems a reasonable mix - the 2-8-2 has been described as the standard freight loco, a Black 5 or Geep for its era, and none of the others quite reaches the celebrity status that is certainly true of many models, past and present.

 

If you are modelling a specific road, there may be problems, I do see that. But as a set of everyday workhorses, my collection suggests you can have a pretty good mix, I think, to look suitably US steam.

[alfsboy]

I think this is my first post on this thread so here goes .I'm often surprised just how much there is .My favorite steamer is the Frisco 2-10-0 and who would have believed Bachmann would make one in plastic .They were all PFM brass before .Their splendid range of useful steam locos is very useful especialy for that useful US cop out ,the freelance railroad .I am also surprised at Athearns SP MT series coming out and Broadway Ltds Pennsy locos , a bit too specific but great models .most US diesels were standard products produced on a production line so mainly similar whatever the road ,at least kit bashable .Its true the brass locos filled the gap .US locos were hard to make in plastic at least after the war and into the 70's .The plastics were not very bendy or too bendy and its only the modern plastics ,CAD design and cheap labour that makes the fine detailing and external piping on any US steam loco finacially viable today .I supoose we should be grateful for what we have ,not what we want .I stick to 0n30 for steam and modern LA for a diesel only layout .I do run my Frisco Decapod though .i do like interurban and keep a watchful eye out for a perchance PE steeple cab and that Bowser P E Baldwin VO 1000 with the trolley poles may even have run on my chunk of railroad years ago so is on my shopping list at some point just to own .

Martin

[CraigZ]

Well, let me see if I can remember what's in the US HO cupboard - quite a range, I think. Proto 0-6-0, Bachmann 2-8-0 (2), Genesis 2-8-2, BLI 2-8-2 (2 heavy, 2 light), Bachmann 2-10-0, BLI 2-10-2 (2), IHC 2-10-2, Bachmann 4-8-2 (2), BLI 4-8-4, Bachmann 2-6-6-2, Genesis 4-6-6-4, Proto 2-8-8-2. For 1950s steam that seems a reasonable mix - the 2-8-2 has been described as the standard freight loco, a Black 5 or Geep for its era, and none of the others quite reaches the celebrity status that is certainly true of many models, past and present.

 

If you are modelling a specific road, there may be problems, I do see that. But as a set of everyday workhorses, my collection suggests you can have a pretty good mix, I think, to look suitably US steam.

 

There is a fair amount available...but it's mostly very road specific and that's a bother if you're looking to be prototypically accurate. Every US road of any size had his own CMO or engineer who thought that HE knew what was best for HIS road. Consider the USRA freight cars - the resistance to them by US roads was enormous. The follow-on design that came close to being standardized was the 1932 ARA box car, and that was hardly standard - roads chose from multiple end designs, roof designs, door designs. So to this mentality we consider steam engines...and the resistance was even greater.

 

The IHC stuff is dodgy; the Bachmann non-Spectrum is dodgy; the Genesis Mike and Pacific are dead. If I'm modeling the Southern Railway or the Illinois Central or the Great Northern or even the ATSF I'm more or less out of luck for good steam power. It can't be had to the same level of accuracy as diesels, and even the basic 'guts' to use to build upon aren't there due to driver sizes or valve gear differences. It's really a very strange situation.

[Talltim]

Well, let me see if I can remember what's in the US HO cupboard - quite a range, I think. Proto 0-6-0, Bachmann 2-8-0 (2), Genesis 2-8-2, BLI 2-8-2 (2 heavy, 2 light), Bachmann 2-10-0, BLI 2-10-2 (2), IHC 2-10-2, Bachmann 4-8-2 (2), BLI 4-8-4, Bachmann 2-6-6-2, Genesis 4-6-6-4, Proto 2-8-8-2. For 1950s steam that seems a reasonable mix - the 2-8-2 has been described as the standard freight loco, a Black 5 or Geep for its era, and none of the others quite reaches the celebrity status that is certainly true of many models, past and present.

 

If you are modelling a specific road, there may be problems, I do see that. But as a set of everyday workhorses, my collection suggests you can have a pretty good mix, I think, to look suitably US steam.

 

The thing is, you have mentioned the prototype for none of those, just the wheel arrangement and model manufacturer. Imagine doing that for UK models, 'oh, this Bachmann (LMS) 4-6-0 will represent this (LNER) 4-6-0 and this (GWR) 4-6-0'. Or 'I've got a Midland 0-4-0, a GWR 0-4-2, a Southern 0-6-0 and an LNER 4-6-2 and an LNWR 0-8-0 Thats a good representation'

 

On a related note, did the PRR have more or less classes of steam loco than the GWR? There's certainly far more GWR locos available in plastic RTR

 

 

I realise that I come across as having a bit of a bee in my bonnet about this subject, and also that i am not going to be able to change the modelling habits of the US. I just find it wierd.