EBay madness

[Enterprisingwestern]

2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

So you wrote to Hattons, they replied, and you fired back some abuse. Well done. Your parents must be proud of you.

 

34 minutes ago, Swissrail said:

I wouldn't know. They're both dead.

 

There speaks a moderator, ooops sorry, administrator.

Sometimes I despair.

 

Mike.

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Chris M said:

When I occasionally look at Hattons secondhand it does seem laughably over priced. So I merely don’t look their very often if I am after something. Telling them that have got their prices wrong does seem to be a strange way to waste time. They know far better than us what they can sell at what price. 

 

Well I looked at the item in question.

 

It's one that is "sold out" at Hornby Magazine. So if you want that one, you've got to pay what the seller wants or do without. 

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/1291404/dapol_hm010_po06_diesel_brake_tender_b964038_in_br_green_special_edition_for_hornby_magazine_pr/stockdetail

 

Sour grapes I think.....

 

 

Jason

[NHY 581]

I wouldn't get too out of shape with Hattons. Here's another retailers offer...though not on ebay. 

 

 

 

Hattons, by the way, seem to have sold theirs. 

 

Rob. 

 

 

[NHY 581]

This however is on ebay, adding weight to Hattons assessment........

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/166112929484?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=8jFad_5RSxG&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=7pDx9g0GQlm&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

Rob. 

 

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

So you are an expert at retail then.

 

Might be worth considering that Hattons have been in business since the 1940s.....

 

They've got one. When the Hornby Magazine models sell out, they'll probably still have one. How much will it be worth then? It's basic capitalism. They aren't a charity doing people a favour.

 

 

Jason

Looking at the prices that Hattons and TMC (this may also apply to other large online retailers) ask for some second hand items they are offering for sale, it does seem that they are either,

 

1.  Out of touch with current market prices.

2.  Unaware that new examples of the same items are still manufactured.

3. Unaware that comparable products are available at often significantly lower prices (this applies especially to kits).

 

It is also clear however, judging by eBay, that there are also buyers who are equally ignorant of the last two points.  As my interest is for kit building pre-group models and I have ongoing searches for such items on eBay, I see this on an almost daily basis. There are some products, such as D&S kits, that are  bought for silly prices, even where they have passed into the hands of another manufacturer. I am never sure if it is because they are bought by collectors rather than model makers, or people don't exercise due diligence when buying such items.

 

Hattons and co are perhaps mislead by a belief that such prices are the norm and the market has sufficient "fools" to justify such pricing and /or that their are people who must own these "rare" items. If they are wrong, then they can offer at a lower price.  X

 

The fact that Hattons have been in business since the 1940's is irrelevant. It is their current sales policy that is under discussion, which is clearly influenced by being able to reach a very wide market through the internet..

[Steamport Southport]

6 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Looking at the prices that Hattons and TMC (this may also apply to other large online retailers) ask for some second hand items they are offering for sale, it does seem that they are either,

 

1.  Out of touch with current market prices.

2.  Unaware that new examples of the same items are still manufactured.

3. Unaware that comparable products are available at often significantly lower prices (this applies especially to kits).

 

It is also clear however, judging by eBay, that there are also buyers who are equally ignorant of the last two points.  As my interest is for kit building pre-group models and I have ongoing searches for such items on eBay, I see this on an almost daily basis. There are some products, such as D&S kits, that are  bought for silly prices, even where they have passed into the hands of another manufacturer. I am never sure if it is because they are bought by collectors rather than model makers, or people don't exercise due diligence when buying such items.

 

Hattons and co are perhaps mislead by a belief that such prices are the norm and the market has sufficient "fools" to justify such pricing and /or that their are people who must own these "rare" items. If they are wrong, then they can offer at a lower price.  X

 

The fact that Hattons have been in business since the 1940's is irrelevant. It is their current sales policy that is under discussion, which is clearly influenced by being able to reach a very wide market through the internet..

 

But why does it need discussing? Someone doesn't like their prices, tough. Last time I looked they weren't a charity and their second hand prices were always on the steep side. I've been using them since about 1976 and my family for a lot longer.

 

This item is no longer made. it's an older version. I won't mention the "M word" and the fact you can easily change the numbers if you want.

 

Besides Hattons don't sell on eBay so why are they being brought up in this thread?

 

 

Jason

[NHY 581]

From personal experience, as related elsewhere, I "wishlisted" a couple of items recently with Hattons. A week after, I received an email advising that one of these items had come into stock as a pre-owned item. A phone later, I had purchased this item and another similar item, thanks to the lady I was speaking to checking if any others were available. 

Well priced and delivered within days. As described and very satisfactory. 

 

So, they did very well in my book..

 

Rob. 

Edited May 21, 2023 by NHY 581

[Phil Parker]

50 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Looking at the prices that Hattons and TMC (this may also apply to other large online retailers) ask for some second hand items they are offering for sale, it does seem that they are either,

 

1.  Out of touch with current market prices.

2.  Unaware that new examples of the same items are still manufactured.

3. Unaware that comparable products are available at often significantly lower prices (this applies especially to kits).

 

It is also clear however, judging by eBay, that there are also buyers who are equally ignorant of the last two points.  As my interest is for kit building pre-group models and I have ongoing searches for such items on eBay, I see this on an almost daily basis. There are some products, such as D&S kits, that are  bought for silly prices, even where they have passed into the hands of another manufacturer. I am never sure if it is because they are bought by collectors rather than model makers, or people don't exercise due diligence when buying such items.

 

Hattons and co are perhaps mislead by a belief that such prices are the norm and the market has sufficient "fools" to justify such pricing and /or that their are people who must own these "rare" items. If they are wrong, then they can offer at a lower price.  X

 

The fact that Hattons have been in business since the 1940's is irrelevant. It is their current sales policy that is under discussion, which is clearly influenced by being able to reach a very wide market through the internet..

 

Spend any time looking behind the scenes at any major retailer operating in the second hand market and you'll be both amazed and impressed at the sophisticated setups involved. 

 

They know what they can sell items for, and that's why all their second hand teams are growing in size. This is NOT an amateur, paste table operation. You don't run a successful business over several years by not knowing your market. 

 

No one is forced to buy this stuff. If you don't like the price, walk away.  Bargains are available, if you are willing to search. 

[Bucoops]

So, ebay.

 

This feels a tad optimistic, and quite surprising it's the MRC selling at that price?

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/145068804578

[SteveyDee68]

8 hours ago, Swissrail said:

preying on the ignorant.

This is the bit which I wholeheartedly agree with - as @Phil Parker points out, Hattons et al have sophisticated operations designed to extract as much money out of customers as is possible, as is the case with any capitalist business (goal #1 : make as much profit as possible)

 

However, it is easy to say “do some research” but novices have no idea where to look, or what questions to ask.

 

Maybe this would make a good article for a magazine, with a proper discussion on the merits and pitfalls of buying secondhand from retailers or eBay, and pointing newbies in the direction of help (model railway clubs, RMWeb etc).

 

I do have to admit, though, that I often find myself in a position of wanting to message various sellers with a blunt message similar to @Swissrail!

 

(Oh, look, a sensible contribution from me, for once!!)

 

Steve S

 

PS

In other news, still watching what happens with the “Pug” for sale on eBay, as mentioned a couple of pages back! 

Edited May 21, 2023 by SteveyDee68
Corrected incorrect corrections by autocorrect!

[Type 2]

9 hours ago, Swissrail said:

I wrote to Hattons and pointed out this fact to them. Their response was classic early 21st century euphemistic focus-group generated claptrap:

 

"Thank you for contacting us today.

Our pre-owned items are priced by our expert pre-owned team according to a variety of factors such as current market, availability and currency demand and use this data to accurately value the items in our pre-owned range."

 

Annoyed by such blatantly rhetorical drivel, I responded:

 

"Your "team" is not very expert if they can value a second hand item that is available new from the manufacturers at more than double their retail price. Your statement is complete twaddle designed to disguise the fact that you're a bunch of utter chisellers preying on the ignorant."

 

So there! 😁

How embarrassing, what do you expect to gain from sending that message?  And how are the preying on on the ignorant.  No one is forced to buy from Hattons

 

The ignorant one appears to be you in this case

Edited May 21, 2023 by Type 2

[kernowtim]

I have spent too much money recently with Hattons, mainly on American outline 3 rail O gauge, which I considered was at a very reasonable price, although there is are often

Price differences on similar models, I usually went for the cheapest!

Also some items in my basket were "no longer available" when I tried to pay, identical models  have resurfaced on ebay at a far higher price and some have even sold!

Other items were paid for,and didn't arrive as they were put on back order, apparently someone else had completed their purchase of the same items at almost the same time which allowed them to be sold twice..

[kernowtim]

And now for something completely different, A Plasticine diesel shunter?

Lima motor bogie could be useful if it runs OK, I have one with a split pinion!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125940040815

[Jol Wilkinson]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Spend any time looking behind the scenes at any major retailer operating in the second hand market and you'll be both amazed and impressed at the sophisticated setups involved. 

 

They know what they can sell items for, and that's why all their second hand teams are growing in size. This is NOT an amateur, paste table operation. You don't run a successful business over several years by not knowing your market. 

 

No one is forced to buy this stuff. If you don't like the price, walk away.  Bargains are available, if you are willing to search. 

Phil,

 

having had a career in the motor industry working for three different multi national companies, involving sales, marketing and customer relations, I wonder if I would find their operation sophisticated. My experience is one of the reasons I find the activities of the large model railway retailers of interest.

 

As a modeller of the LNWR, I am very dependant on kits to create the models I want, so have a good knowledge of what is and has been produced and the usual pricing of both current and no longer manufactured models and kits on the market. Those items do appear on some of the large retailers online sites, including through eBay. 

 

As you say, you don't have to buy and I don't,  as Hattons very rarely have anything of interest to me. Some of the other large retailers occasionally do have , including Rails and TMC, but their pricing  is often very optimistic, or at least is to one who does research what is available on the market. That includes eBay, s/h sellers, bring and buy stands at shows, etc. 

 

Jol

[Swissrail]

1 hour ago, Type 2 said:

And how are the preying on on the ignorant.  No one is forced to buy from Hattons

You know very well how. By relying on those who don't know any better accepting their price as fair because of their company's supposed reputation.

There seems to be a feeling amongst some here that attempting to screw people over is a perfectly acceptable aspect of healthy business practice. The view seems to be " if they're dumb enough to go for it, let them"... morality and ethics be damned.

I for one would like to see some decency in these matters so if I see someone trying to be a bit of a greedy $hit, I'll call them out on it and I don't much care if the laissez faire capitalists here find it "embarrassing".

Edited May 21, 2023 by Swissrail

[Darius43]

This used to be a fun thread with humorous posts making fun of ridiculous items put up for sale on eBay with frequent ridiculous digressions.   
 

Of late it seems to be a front for people railing against retailers pricing items too high, an issue which is anything but new. 
 

By all means take up these issues in private communication with the retailer in question but please don’t give us line by line coverage of said communication - it comes across as fanaticism (irrespective of whether one has swallowed an economics textbook).

Cheers

 

Darius

 

[Type 2]

41 minutes ago, Swissrail said:

You know very well how. By relying on those who don't know any better accepting their price as fair because of their company's supposed reputation.

There seems to be a feeling amongst some here that attempting to screw people over is a perfectly acceptable aspect of healthy business practice. The view seems to be " if they're dumb enough to go for it, let them"... morality and ethics be damned.

I for one would like to see some decency in these matters so if I see someone trying to be a bit of a greedy $hit, I'll call them out on it and I don't much care if the laissez faire capitalists here find it "embarrassing".

So I'm a laissez faire capitalist then?  

 

Explain how it is a retailers fault if someone doesn't do their research when buying something from them that can be had cheaper elsewhere?  

 

Explain how a retailer will break the news to their staff when they have to make redundancies due to failing to make enough money to cover their overheads?   How would you react in that situation?  

 

Explain why its unfair to someone who sells something on eBay for way more than it can be bought elsewhere.  Should they be forced to refund the excess?  Would you?  I guarantee you wouldn't.

 

It may have escaped your notice but model railways is not a billionaire making industry.  A company making profit is not 'screwing people over', they are trying to survive.  It's got nothing to do with morals and ethics, these are discretionary spends, not food and water.

 

 

 

[MrWolf]

1 hour ago, Darius43 said:

This used to be a fun thread with humorous posts making fun of ridiculous items put up for sale on eBay with frequent ridiculous digressions.   
 

Of late it seems to be a front for people railing against retailers pricing items too high, an issue which is anything but new. 
 

By all means take up these issues in private communication with the retailer in question but please don’t give us line by line coverage of said communication - it comes across as fanaticism (irrespective of whether one has swallowed an economics textbook).

Cheers

 

Darius

 

 

Well said Darius

 

Here we are, potentially on the verge of World War Three, our own country has gone to the dogs and this page is getting mad about a hobby which has always been expensive.

That energy and time could be put to far better use. I'm exhausted just reading it.

 

Rob

 

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by MrWolf
Added a bit.

[33C]

3 hours ago, kernowtim said:

And now for something completely different, A Plasticine diesel shunter?

Lima motor bogie could be useful if it runs OK, I have one with a split pinion!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125940040815

That's a great example of "make it yourself". I like it!

[33C]

1 hour ago, MrWolf said:

 

Well said Darius

 

Here we are, potentially on the verge of World War Three, our own country has gone to the dogs and this page is getting mad about a hobby which has always been expensive.

That energy and time could be put to far better use. I'm exhausted just reading it.

 

Rob

 

 

Yes Biggus, get yourselves a cheapo battery train set, some cardboard and a hot glue gun and have a bit of fun! 😄

Edited May 21, 2023 by 33C
add letter

[kevinlms]

5 hours ago, Type 2 said:

How embarrassing, what do you expect to gain from sending that message?  And how are the preying on on the ignorant.  No one is forced to buy from Hattons

 

The ignorant one appears to be you in this case

Just an expectation that Hattons (or any other large retailer) should ask and get approval of a 'fair price' from the eBay Madness warriors on RMweb. Problem solved, or will it?

[Jol Wilkinson]

10 hours ago, Type 2 said:

Explain how a retailer will break the news to their staff when they have to make redundancies due to failing to make enough money to cover their overheads?   How would you react in that situation?  

 

It may have escaped your notice but model railways is not a billionaire making industry.  A company making profit is not 'screwing people over', they are trying to survive.  It's got nothing to do with morals and ethics, these are discretionary spends, not food and water.

 

Don't forget that the now large online retailers are also, in large part at least, responsible for the loss of many of the local high street model shops, who couldn't compete with their mail order and online discounting. How did they celebrate putting others out of business?

 

Of course, they were simply appealing to the greed of the modeller who wanted cheaper prices, but which came first?

 

10 hours ago, Type 2 said:

It may have escaped your notice but model railways is not a billionaire making industry.  A company making profit is not 'screwing people over', they are trying to survive.  It's got nothing to do with morals and ethics, these are discretionary spends, not food and water.

 

A look at Hatton's accounts for 2021 on Companies House showed a profit of £623K after tax, 5% of turnover, an increase over 2020. Does this sound like a company trying to survive? They would appear to be very good at it.

 

As something of an aside regarding morals and ethics, should we expect any significant player in a market place to have any? We do with supermarkets, car manufacturers, water companies, etc. Are Hatton's, TMC, Rails, Hornby, Bachmann, etc. a special case?

 

Drifting back to eBay and other auction houses, at least the pricing there should find there own level. That isn't always the case however, as auction fever affects some people in their need to acquire a particular item, which can drive prices up excessively. It only takes two to tango, so when they are satisfied prices may fall back to a more realistic market level, but the "standard" has been set which tends to make sellers aim for higher reserve of BIN prices.  

[Paul H Vigor]

11 hours ago, MrWolf said:

 

Well said Darius

 

Here we are, potentially on the verge of World War Three, our own country has gone to the dogs and this page is getting mad about a hobby which has always been expensive.

That energy and time could be put to far better use. I'm exhausted just reading it.

 

Rob

 

 

I guess the model railway hobby has always been as cheap or expensive as an individual modeller wishes to make it? Newbie modellers starting from scratch, usually with big ideas and limiting themselves to state-of-the art RTR with all the popular gadgets and gizmos, will need deep pockets. Whilst time-scarred, grizzled, old-school modellers ferret about, find a 'sow's ear' in a '£1' box at a show and up-cycle it into something wonderful - or not!

 

That said, I still believe in rescuing models from the incestuous maelstrom of 'the trade' when I can.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Paul H Vigor
to add information

[Type 2]

21 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

Don't forget that the now large online retailers are also, in large part at least, responsible for the loss of many of the local high street model shops, who couldn't compete with their mail order and online discounting. How did they celebrate putting others out of business?

 

Of course, they were simply appealing to the greed of the modeller who wanted cheaper prices, but which came first?

 

 

A look at Hatton's accounts for 2021 on Companies House showed a profit of £623K after tax, 5% of turnover, an increase over 2020. Does this sound like a company trying to survive? They would appear to be very good at it.

 

As something of an aside regarding morals and ethics, should we expect any significant player in a market place to have any? We do with supermarkets, car manufacturers, water companies, etc. Are Hatton's, TMC, Rails, Hornby, Bachmann, etc. a special case?

 

Drifting back to eBay and other auction houses, at least the pricing there should find there own level. That isn't always the case however, as auction fever affects some people in their need to acquire a particular item, which can drive prices up excessively. It only takes two to tango, so when they are satisfied prices may fall back to a more realistic market level, but the "standard" has been set which tends to make sellers aim for higher reserve of BIN prices.  

A lot of small local shops went out of business due to owners retiring or selling up and no one being willing to take them on, added to high business rates.  Further a lot, of small shops simply do not move with the times and sell the same ranges year after year.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love local shops, would much rather shop in those than order online, those that were near me closed for retirement purposes, but they where still selling the same basic ranges year after year and never branched out to sell different manufacturers items, none of them did mail order, none of them had a website.

 

The big players such as Hattons and Rails have been in business for years, and moved with the times, reacting to the wider market and becoming almost 1 stop shops.  They are not solely responsible for putting small traders out of business. 

 

So what if they make good profits?  Isnt that what being in business is all about?  They are not charities, they sell discretionary spend goods to modellers who demand them.

 

Model railway retailers are not in the same league as supermarkets or car manufacturers, they are in comparison very, very small traders.

 

This hobby is only as expensive as you want it to be, but it's is not the retailers fault if you buy their product at twice the price of anywhere else.

[33C]

Why not bang off an email or ring up and make an offer on something you like that you think is reasonable? Most of the online retailers have a "make offer" option. I make a low offer and they come back with a counter offer. A bit of back and forth and we make a deal. Or I have offered a PX with stuff I don't need. What's the worst that can happen? They say no. No skin off my nose!