Bacup - Mills in the hills

[Sasquatch]

Great set of pictures Jason. Looks like I might just have to fork out for the postage for this issue!

[Jaz]

Great set of pictures Jason. Looks like I might just have to fork out for the postage for this issue!

Not yet having managed to catch this one in the flesh.....so will I

[Jason T]

So how much freight stock is too much freight stock for a relatively small terminus station with a small goods yard? Answer: Probably more than I already have.

 

The thing is, I really enjoy building wagon kits; you could say that I am addicted to them. And recently, that's pretty much all I have been doing.

 

The seven 21 ton hoppers were bought from Tim, who had progressed four of them to the point of the hoppers, supports and solebars. I got the other three to the same level and then added all the fiddly bits like brake levers, hopper levers and the bloody handrails. Only one has wheels as Tim never included them (I didn't expect them as I imagine that he had swapped them for EM ones).

 

The Palvan and Pipe wagon have been seen before but joining them are ywo RCH seven plank wagons and a BR 13 ton open wagon (with sheet rail).

 

I've got a lot of painting and weathering ahead of me, especially as I also need to paint the two Cambrian Salmon bogie rail wagons and the Cambrian 5 plank wagon I built last month.

 

 

 

Still to start is a BR Pipe wagon (the one mentioned above is an LMS one)

[Worsdell forever]

More wagons! and you'll need some in EM sometime soon...

[Mark Forrest]

[wagon pedant] your Pipe is a Tube [/wagon pedant]

 

Good to see some more kit built wagons being built.

[Jason T]

Some of the hoppers have the brakes gauged out to EM clearances (you don't really spot that they aren't perfectly in line for OO unless you get up close and at a funny angle).

 

You're right Mark but then, as a fellow kit addict, I'm not surprised

[Andrew P]

Hi Jason, the wagons look good, just need to convince Jeff that a kitchen table has more than one use at 8 am, its has the other 23 Hours on which to do the wagon building and painting.

 

Looking really good mate, I'm so envious, but I daren't  use a knife yet, hahah.

 

All the best mate.

Bodge.

[Timara]

Looking good there Jason!  You remember I said I was sure I had another?  Guess what I found last night while looking for something else....  Unopened too.

 

Mind if I ask what buffers you've used?  LMS perhaps?

 

Cheers!

[Jason T]

Yep, Lanarkshire ones mate. Not only do they look better but I am a clumsy sod and have lost count of the number of times I have snapped off the bufferheads on Parkside kits so nowadays I replace them when building the kits.

[mark axlecounter]

Hi Jason hope all is ok you can never have to many wagons or coaches for that manner.

what do you use for the numbers and the id plates

 

Mark

[Jason T]

I use Modelmaster decals mate, although I have been known to use individual HMRS Methfix transfers once (never again )

[mark axlecounter]

Thanks Jason I built a few but I did not know where to get the transfers

[Kingmoorkid]

I saw this and thought of you.  Making a pleasant change from the usual industrial tanks LYR Class 27 was out and about on the Embsay and Bolton Abbey line on Tuesday, just about 10 miles from your front door!

 

Just getting some of those 21t hoppers onto my workbench - picked up a couple of cheap Parkside kits from Dave's Cherished Trains at Hellifield station (if you haven't been well worth the relatively short trip as you never know what might be for sale).

 

Kingmoorkid

 

 

 

 

[bluebottle]

I saw this and thought of you.  Making a pleasant change from the usual industrial tanks LYR Class 27 was out and about on the Embsay and Bolton Abbey line on Tuesday, just about 10 miles from your front door!

 

 

..........................................................

Kingmoorkid

 

 

 Lovely! This picture is worthy of study by anyone aiming for an impression of depth on a narrow baseboard at near eye level, using a flat, simple background behind and slightly separated from the trackbed behind a low rise from the baseboard edge.

[LNER4479]

So how much freight stock is too much freight stock for a relatively small terminus station with a small goods yard? Answer: Probably more than I already have.

 

The thing is, I really enjoy building wagon kits; you could say that I am addicted to them. And recently, that's pretty much all I have been doing.

 

The seven 21 ton hoppers...

 

Dare I offer a critical comment in respect of wagons on your otherwise superlative layout?

 

Have you thought about the traffic (and therefore the wagon types) that would be handled at Bacup and the facilities required for loading/unloading them? Unless I'm very much mistaken, the 21 ton hoppers were bottom discharge only and therefore would require a coal staithe arrangement in the yard if they are being depicted as delivering coal to Bacup (if other stations on the branches were so fitted and there are to be depicted as 'en route' then I apologise!). They were very much a development of the NER slope-sided wooden body coal (hopper) wagon to matched the extensive use of coal staithes in the North East, although their use became more widespread in BR days. I'm not sure if there is a direct ancestral link, but BR's MGR hopper wagons (and indeed the modern bogie coal hopper wagons) all work on the same principle, all coal-fired power stations being equipped to handle bottom discharge wagons.

 

Although I haven't seen them on your Bacup (I don't think), tank wagons would be another example of a vehicle that would require specialist emptying/filling equipment in a goods yard to justify their use.

 

Of course, all this might not bother you in the slightest (my layout, rule 1 and all that) and there are always plenty of 'likes' (me included!) whenever we see a carefully weathered goods trains in such a gorgeous setting, irrespective of where the wagons are going to and from.

Edited July 17, 2014 by LNER4479

[Jaz]

Dare I offer a critical comment in respect of wagons on your otherwise superlative layout?

 

Have you thought about the traffic (and therefore the wagon types) that would be handled at Bacup and the facilities required for loading/unloading them? Unless I'm very much mistaken, the 21 ton hoppers were bottom discharge only and therefore would require a coal staithe arrangement in the yard if they are being depicted as delivering coal to Bacup (if other stations on the branches were so fitted and there are to be depicted as 'en route' then I apologise!). They were very much a development of the NER slope-sided wooden body coal (hopper) wagon to matched the extensive use of coal staithes in the North East, although their use became more widespread in BR days. I'm not sure if there is a direct ancestral link, but BR's MGR hopper wagons (and indeed the modern bogie coal hopper wagons) all work on the same principle, all coal-fired power stations being equipped to handle bottom discharge wagons.

 

Although I haven't seen them on your Bacup (I don't think), tank wagons would be another example of a vehicle that would require specialist emptying/filling equipment in a goods yard to justify their use.

 

Of course, all this might not bother you in the slightest (my layout, rule 1 and all that) and there are always plenty of 'likes' (me included!) whenever we see a carefully weathered goods trains in such a gorgeous setting, irrespective of where the wagons are going to and from.

Would you happen to know of a link to a picture portraying how the coal was dispensed? Staithes tend to look as though they are set off to the side of the rails....so was there a moveable conveyor belt or similar....or perhaps a simple shute....that moved the coal from the wagon to the staithe.

I am sure that I should be able to track the answer down. 

I did google straithes but just got the standard stone or wood structure....no sign of how the coal was moved from wagon to holding place. And now you have pointed this out. I would be very interested in the manner they operated.

I am off to google again including operation etc and adding the hopper. But if you are aware of any good examples. I would be very grateful for your helping me out.

 

Edit= ah!!!! My error in believing staiths were only the simple ground ones modelled by the likes of Hornby. Does this mean coal drops often had those shuts on them? So vehicles could back in nd the coal be dropped either into the storage area below...or directed on to the back of a lorry?

such as this?

http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&docid=ZQeMM3VWmy8GTM&tbnid=WAXzo2nMJ4Tk7M:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidheyscollection.com%2Fpage48.htm&ei=anvHU6L2FaGu0QWSgYGwDw&bvm=bv.71198958,d.ZGU&psig=AFQjCNHf_PxtlG4B_5kpgotrJ_MnAxZ7jg&ust=1405668412228639

 

In which case I have a different question. Can anyone direct me to a correctly modelled version?\Thank you.

 

Would the resin COAL DROP building from Hornby that I have bought and used on our Goathland section of AV have been tall enough to support these type of chutes? 

 

I also found this, but too early for us and not mechanised 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13253&start=25

Edited July 17, 2014 by Jaz

[Jason T]

You're right Graham, there are absolutely no provisions for unloading hopper wagons on the layout and likewise, no facilities for the grain wagons that appear quite frequently. However, especially for the latter (and I admit that the ones I have may not be the exact wagons used in reality) there were a number of industries with private sidings on the line and as such, it is assumed that they are worked up to the terminus, sorted and then dispatched to their respective locations / industries as required.

 

I did read somewhere (the article escapes me now) that there were private sidings to a mill near the engine shed (situated some way down the Rochdale branch) and that wagons to and from them were worked by locos coming off trains at the station and going to the shed for servicing. Now this may have been in earlier times but it does, in my mind at least, give some justification for the more obscure wagons, as does other stock being marshalled at Bacup to serve goods yards on the branches that were served in the up direction only.

 

Not only do these assumptions allow for a greater variety of stock but also add to shunting / remarshalling puzzles and the number of goods trains that can be run in a session.

 

Edit: you'll also never see a hopper in the coal siding, they are always sat in the holding sidings

[Jock67B]

Morning Jason,

I can support that idea from my time living in the maisonettes adjoining Hurlford shed in the fifties. What were known as 'Hurlford Mineral Sidings' ran alongside the housing blocks and though predominantly serving coal traffic from the many mines around, the yard was also used to marshal goods traffic for the then busy Nith valley link between Glasgow and Dumfries, Carlisle and greater England beyond. The other side of the main Dumfries road on the Darvel branch saw a private siding which ran into the factory of a large sanitary ware manufacturer (Google Howies of Hurlford and you'll see how big this enterprise was, particularly in Victorian times when the supplied the wares for London public loos and very many railway station facilities.). So we often saw wagon loads of toilets, mixed with bolster wagons, banana wagons, farm produce, tankers, etc. etc. The yard had its own dedicated signal box for marshalling local and express freights without any sort of handling facilities for loading/off-loading! The village also had a couple of large foundries, making things like ships propellers etc. and they could often be seen on their special wagons in the yard. More sinister was the produce of 'Ardeer' on the Clyde Coast where Nobel had units producing all manner of munitions and so in the war years and for some time after, gunpowder vans weren't unusual as well as wagons carrying bombs etc. We even had Whisky from Johnnie Walkers of Kilmarnock whose warehouse now covers the site!

I will never be able to afford to model the variety, and neither do I have the time to produce all that I observed there!

History lesson over but I hope it helps - there is a photo of the yard in the LMS engine sheds book that deals with the G&SWR and this supports my comments admirably.

Kind regards and look forward to seeing 'Bacup' in print soon,

Jock.

[LNER4479]

You're right Graham, there are absolutely no provisions for unloading hopper wagons on the layout and likewise, no facilities for the grain wagons that appear quite frequently. However, especially for the latter (and I admit that the ones I have may not be the exact wagons used in reality) there were a number of industries with private sidings on the line and as such, it is assumed that they are worked up to the terminus, sorted and then dispatched to their respective locations / industries as required.

 

I did read somewhere (the article escapes me now) that there were private sidings to a mill near the engine shed (situated some way down the Rochdale branch) and that wagons to and from them were worked by locos coming off trains at the station and going to the shed for servicing. Now this may have been in earlier times but it does, in my mind at least, give some justification for the more obscure wagons, as does other stock being marshalled at Bacup to serve goods yards on the branches that were served in the up direction only.

 

Not only do these assumptions allow for a greater variety of stock but also add to shunting / remarshalling puzzles and the number of goods trains that can be run in a session.

 

Edit: you'll also never see a hopper in the coal siding, they are always sat in the holding sidings

All very plausible(!) and as I partly suspected. Although you don't say it (edit - oops, sorry, I can see you sort of did), I assume that some of these sidings could only be worked in one direction only (quite a common occurrence) so the traffic would have to go past the intended destination then run round and head back to get access (or do the reverse as empty wagons). As you say, an excellent excuse for running a variety of wagons and shunting puzzles galore!

Edited July 17, 2014 by LNER4479

[Jason T]

I did sort of say it, when I mentioned working the yards from the Up direction only although I suppose that regardless of which direction the yard was accessible from the main lines (assuming just one, or much easier to work in one direction than the other) then it would result in either full or empty wagons being marshalled at Bacup. 

 

Jock, thanks for the info, it is much appreciated and first hand knowledge and descriptions of workings will always be beneficial to someone who was born after the interesting days of the railways had passed ( )

[LNER4479]

Edit= ah!!!! My error in believing staiths were only the simple ground ones modelled by the likes of Hornby. Does this mean coal drops often had those shuts on them? So vehicles could back in nd the coal be dropped either into the storage area below...or directed on to the back of a lorry?

such as this?

http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&docid=ZQeMM3VWmy8GTM&tbnid=WAXzo2nMJ4Tk7M:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidheyscollection.com%2Fpage48.htm&ei=anvHU6L2FaGu0QWSgYGwDw&bvm=bv.71198958,d.ZGU&psig=AFQjCNHf_PxtlG4B_5kpgotrJ_MnAxZ7jg&ust=1405668412228639

 

In which case I have a different question. Can anyone direct me to a correctly modelled version?\Thank you.

 

Would the resin COAL DROP building from Hornby that I have bought and used on our Goathland section of AV have been tall enough to support these type of chutes? 

 

I also found this, but too early for us and not mechanised 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13253&start=25

Hi Jaz,

 

Larry has modelled a version on his Greenfield layout. If you go on his thread and just go back a page from where he is currently, you can see it on the shot with all his newly-repainted coaches in the goods yard. In this example, it looks like the shutes are out to the side as you say and possibly just direct the coal straight down into a pile of the ground (from where it would have to be shovelled into the back of the lorry, or individually bagged). In more sophisticated examples, it think it would be retained in a bunker then a measured amount discharged straight out into the lorry when required. Others may comment more knowledgeably but the key thing is a height difference. I presume the one at Goathland is an example of a standard NER installation for a country goods yard where the quantity of coal involved was quite small and might just arrive one wagon at a time.

 

Oops, sorry Jason - hi-jack alert

Edited July 17, 2014 by LNER4479

[Jason T]

Not at all Graham, hijack away. 

The L&Y weren't adverse to coal drops either. Holmfirth, for example, had coal drops.

[Worsdell forever]

Have a look at my Felton Lane thread (link in signature) for a fairly detailed description of how I built my coal drops (NER called them coal depots), the photos should show how they were worked. 

 

The NER built some 20t steel bodied hoppers in the early 20th century followed by some 30 & 40 ton bogie hoppers so well in advance of most others. 

[Alister_G]

Have a look at my Felton Lane thread (link in signature) for a fairly detailed description of how I built my coal drops (NER called them coal depots), the photos should show how they were worked. 

 

The NER built some 20t steel bodied hoppers in the early 20th century followed by some 30 & 40 ton bogie hoppers so well in advance of most others. 

 

 

 

Seagoon: He was a tall, vile man, dressed in the naval uniform of a sea-going sailor. Under his left arm he held a neatly rolled anchor, 

while with his right he scanned the horizon with a pair of powerful kippers.

 

 

 

Completely off topic, but whenever I see Paul's signature, I keep wanting to go.

 

AHOY!...

 

Ahoy!...

 

AHOY!...

 

Ahoy! Pull up a bollard!

[coachmann]

Not at all Graham, hijack away. 

The L&Y weren't adverse to coal drops either. Holmfirth, for example, had coal drops.

The coal drops wall and shutes came away intact during dismantling and I have just been outside to look at it, but its gawn! Someone else around here is obviously modeling coal drops...