Prof Klyzlr Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Dear RMWebbers, Was just struck by a thought as I watched some of the "Sweet Home..." vids on YT. I percieve (with the full understanding that all I'm seeing is a few minutes of YT vid), that there's little/no footage of the operators conversing with the viewers or "working the crowd"... Is this a "UK thing", are the YT vids simply "not representative of the UK exhibition experience", or is the layout soo "Manual User Interface"/"Direct Drive" intensive that operators are obliged to "face the layout" at all times (with the possible risk of being percieved as ignoring, or worse actively "turning their back on" any viewers who are looking at the layout)? Please, this is not intended as a derogatory comment, I love the modelling Jon G has turned out in the "Sweet Home" layouts, its just a noted observation from a fellow Exhibitor... (and prompted by an intense curiosity as to what conditions/factors/design-issues are creating this operator-behaviour situation...) Happy Modelling, Aim to Improve, Prof Klyzlr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Graff Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 I'd rather have the operators in the front of the layout so I can ask them questions. To have them hidden behind it feels a bit "private" to me, especially if it has a big backdrop.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof Klyzlr Posted November 23, 2011 Author Share Posted November 23, 2011 I'd rather have the operators in the front of the layout so I can ask them questions. To have them hidden behind it feels a bit "private" to me, especially if it has a big backdrop.... Dear M, Understood, (Placing the layout between the operator and viewer is an effective "crowd barrier" to interaction, esp if there's a backdrop of any significance...) but if the operators are spending significant time standing between the layout and the viewer aisle, facing the layout (IE with their back to the audience), is that an equal/bigger issue? Happy Modelling, Aim to Improve, Prof Klyzlr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewC Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Interesting that this has come up. SWMBO and I last night were talking about if and when we ever get Essex completed and exhibited. The chat turned to a trip down memory lane as we remembered one gent from our club. He had no interest in operating the layouts but loved to talk. His job at exhibitions was to be "front of house". Peter knew every loco, wagon, coach, and square inch of all the layouts over the years and could answer any question put to him. That allowed the operators to well err operate. I'm just wondering if some layouts would benefit from having one of the operators rotate into a PR or tour guide position during exhibitions allowing the other operators to concentrate on running the layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 As one of the "operators", for the first exhibition, you actually need to have your back to the audience to concentrate on where your train is and switching the turnouts" - that doesn't stop the public asking questiopns, or you from answering them, but it does involve you turning your head to answer them. Jon has added a second operating position for "run throughs" so there are usually two operators about. It does, however offer the thought that perhaps the runthrough operator sets up his train, and actually plugs in his controller at the front so that he can talk to the viewers - however this does add the problem of whent to stop his train as he can't see how far into the fiddle yard it has progressed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 I think this is always a difficult one - whilst I agree that you want to appear approacheable you also need to be working the layout, and that if done properly needs a degree of attention and concentration.....and if you don't pay attention and concentrate then you either end up 'aimlessly' moving things back and forth (whereby folk think there's nothing happening and whinge/wander off) or making mistakes (whereby folk think you don't know what you're doing and whinge/wander off)... Andrew's suggestion of a 'front of house' person is a very good one if you can staff it, my only query is that at remote shows would most EM's be happy to fund travel/accomodation/food for somebody to sit there and not work the layout? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony_S Posted November 23, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 23, 2011 I saw Jon's "Sweethome Chicago" at Alexandra Palace a few years ago. There was plenty of train movement even though Jon was chatting to me about the locos on the layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcanman Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Hi, This is an interesting thread. As I watched SHA being operated from the front , it was great for me to be able to meet and chat to the operators, Jon and Jack, whilst conscious that I didn't want to distract them too much while they were concentrating on switching. While I was there, there was plenty of chat with other punters and I felt it added to a more friendly ambience. The very first layout I ever saw being being operated from the front was the late Mike Scott's timesaver, 'Little Switch'. Mike loved to chat and explain switching moves. An real inspiration. I think operating from the front works best for small / medium layouts but large club tail-chasers are probably best being operated from the rear. regards, Mal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewC Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Andrew's suggestion of a 'front of house' person is a very good one if you can staff it, my only query is that at remote shows would most EM's be happy to fund travel/accomodation/food for somebody to sit there and not work the layout? Too true but unless the layout is a virtual one man band there would hopefully be at least 2 operators off shift at any one time. One could be resting/eating/touring layouts, while the other would be the "front of house". I know that personally when I'm operating someone else's layout I find that its difficult to carry on a conversation while trying not to have the train do a freestyle dive off the end of the fiddleyard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted November 23, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 23, 2011 Andrew's suggestion of a 'front of house' person is a very good one if you can staff it, my only query is that at remote shows would most EM's be happy to fund travel/accomodation/food for somebody to sit there and not work the layout? They can always be a signalman I think operating from the front works best for small / medium layouts but large club tail-chasers are probably best being operated from the rear. Widnes is not small, but we have a signalman who sits at the front and chats to anyone who wants to discuss things (its generally me), the drivers (operators) are in the middle. Too true but unless the layout is a virtual one man band there would hopefully be at least 2 operators off shift at any one time. One could be resting/eating/touring layouts, while the other would be the "front of house". I know that personally when I'm operating someone else's layout I find that its difficult to carry on a conversation while trying not to have the train do a freestyle dive off the end of the fiddleyard. We take 6-8 operators with Widnes, we have 2 signalmen to control the layout and typically 4 drivers, that means we have 2 spare men, if one of those had to sit at the front (ignoring the fact that we already do that) during their time not operating, it would mean very little break time, that wouldn't work I'm afraid. (If we only have 6 then generally, aside from a quick grabbed lunch, I don't get any break during the show which is why I never see the other layouts) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted November 23, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 23, 2011 Too true but unless the layout is a virtual one man band there would hopefully be at least 2 operators off shift at any one time. One could be resting/eating/touring layouts, while the other would be the "front of house". I know that personally when I'm operating someone else's layout I find that its difficult to carry on a conversation while trying not to have the train do a freestyle dive off the end of the fiddleyard. Ah but thought of that Andrew... thats why 'Roundhouse' has a quarter inch lip all the way round so the heavier locos wont push the buffer stops off and take a dive to the floor!! Yes. Having someone out front does create quite a bit of interaction with the viewers as you have probably experienced when operating on 'Roundhouse'. Luckily if the operator on this section is distracted and has to stop operating for a short while, hopefully there is enough interest going on elsewhere.. more luck than planning but not all layouts can do this. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 They can always be a signalman Which is I think where we are with RS Tower, we have a tower operator (signalman) out at the front....being worked on by a friend of the group is a rendition of a US&S CTC panel to make it look rather more authentic than the current setup. I think once we have that my current thinking is he will end up towards one end of the layout side-on to both the layout and public, and sat lower down so most folk look across him. There *may* also be a switch crew out there working one of the outlying industries. It's still a juggle with the tasks though, it has been known for the signaller to become engrossed in a conversation as the layout grinds to a halt for instance...and whilst in that role at Exeter last year I did have one moment when I had a question coming from a member of the public behind me, a request for a movement from a crew member in front of me, plus a request for clearance off the branch coming in by radio into my ear at the same time... Interesting to note that we have similar crew sizes (and similar issues if there aren't enough of them) to you Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 This all depends on two things the type of layout and the type of "character" of the operator. In some cases having an operator in front of the display is a distraction - the viewer does not want always to ask questions and often those that ask questions gat quite involved in a discussion and then form a view block to other viewers - this can be incredibly annoying. A similar situation can happen when the operator sees their role at a show to meet up with old friends and spend endless time chatting about everything other than the layout. I'm afraid I take the view that the layout is there for my benefit as a paying visitor and should be operating and viewable in its glory not out of action and obscured. But there can be similar problems with layouts with operators hiding from interaction with the public, even to the oint of ignoring questions. I have seen it and experienced it, and it is not always when the operator is concentrating on some display movement for the other viewers. There is nothing worse IMO than a big layout with half a dozen operators huddled in a group discussing the merits of the previous night's hospitality or the football progress, ignoring both the public and the layout operation. Now it is a difficult problem. Not every layout owner/operator is extrovert enough to really engage with the public. In fact many seem positively shy and despite being very knowledgeable about their layout and in modelling general, seem to be very reluctant to share that knowledge. I have mixed feelings on the subject. When it is done really well and doesn't detract from operation then I like to have the modeller at the front. For a guest/stand-in operator it must be very difficult until they are very familiar. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted November 23, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 23, 2011 For me it's pretty simple - if you want a decent backscene, and the layout near eye level, you've got little option but to operate from the front. On Cogirep and Paynestown, I stand at the left end of the modelled part of the layout, so there's little or no interruption in sight lines for viewers. Most of the shunting moves can be done from this position since I use automatic uncoupling and I know where the magnets are. I've operated Marc Smith's layouts in similar fashion. Personally, I love the interaction you get from being up front, as well as the chance to offer the controls to an interested youngster. I'm not knocking layouts that are operated from behind of in the middle; it's a trade-off as always. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted November 23, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 23, 2011 Most of our small informal group are quite happy to interact with the viewers. However, some can operate and talk (some times with mixed results) whilst some will stop operating to talk. Its a difficult thing to manage as too much interrupted operation means we don't get invites from managers watching at the time, or too much regimental control of operators means that we don't get enough operators giving up their spare time as their enjoyment dwindles if they feel they are ' at work' and hence we cant do as many shows. Therefore, (I believe anyway) that we have a fairly relaxed time and reasonable self discipline the majority of the time. Also as the layouts we operate are not club ones but individual peoples creations, its often difficult to give all the answers asked. Especially hard for some is when it comes to the technology. Some of this has been overcome by putting up basic information on how we use it on a sheet on the front of the layout which the operator can refer to when asked any such questions. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave1905 Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Most of the exhibition layouts in the US are the modular club type where there is a big loop. the operators stand in the middle and face the crowd. Upside: The operators always face the crowd and are available to answer questions. Some shows I've been to, the club has actually designated a person to to go around, either inside or outside the loop and engage the viewers. Downside: with the operators inside the operation generally is limited to a "NASA mission" (try and keep as much equipment orbiting with nothing hitting the ground). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewC Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Therefore, (I believe anyway) that we have a fairly relaxed time and reasonable self discipline the majority of the time. Which is one of the reasons I enjoy outings with the layouts. I just wish I had more free time to come along more often. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted November 23, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 23, 2011 It's still a juggle with the tasks though, it has been known for the signaller to become engrossed in a conversation as the layout grinds to a halt for instance...and whilst in that role at Exeter last year I did have one moment when I had a question coming from a member of the public behind me, a request for a movement from a crew member in front of me, plus a request for clearance off the branch coming in by radio into my ear at the same time... Interesting to note that we have similar crew sizes (and similar issues if there aren't enough of them) to you Dave. You need a M.I.L.F to soothe your fevered brow ! Indeed, similar layouts in concept and operation so I guess the problems, too big, too expensive are applicable to both. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 I noted Jack's comments in the Sweethome thread about the difficulty of operating and talking to people... It's a fine balance, isn't it? I like to be able to see an operator, at least, just in case I might want to ask something... there are some layouts on the Show circuit which hide them completely!! The downside to "front" operators is that they can block the view at times. As this subject is posted in the USA/Canadian Section I relate it most to the Trent Valley Show. It was my impression this year that most of the layouts were operated from the front. Some operated from behind had no backscene or a low one. Although my own layout was set quite high, and has high backscenes, because of it's design I'm more-or-less to one side of it, and people spoke to me quite readily, as well as over the hidden sidings, which had a lower back board. "To one side" is probably the best position; the best example I've seen was Chris Gilbert's "Haston" (now sold and resident in Scotland I believe), although that depends on how long the layout is, of course.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewC Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 <silly mode> Why not take a leaf out of the trade show book. Get some nice eye candy in front of the layout to chat with the punters. A glamour model wearing the appropriate liveried bikini perhaps. (must avoid tempting comment about her having to change hourly for a post privatisation layout ) </silly mode> Once again everything comes down to a compromise. If the costs and operator resources can bear it then a dedicated PR person works really well. If not then all we can do is try and balance our enjoyment with the operation and the interaction with the public. Some do this better than others. I'm a miserable old b*gger so I tend to try and hide at the back of the layout where possible. I'm going to have to find a sucker people friendly operator or 2 for Essex if and when it hits the circuit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 <silly mode> Why not take a leaf out of the trade show book. Get some nice eye candy in front of the layout to chat with the punters. A glamour model wearing the appropriate liveried bikini perhaps. (must avoid tempting comment about her having to change hourly for a post privatisation layout ) </silly mode> On the plus side, nobody would notice if you SPAD... Some do this better than others. I'm a miserable old b*gger so I tend to try and hide at the back of the layout where possible. I'm not exactly a natural 'people person' either I have to admit... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveB Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 I operate two of my layouts, Hoxie Harbor and Kuppla Yard from the front. This is a great way not only to encourage verbally interaction ,but also to give 'selected' members of the public an opportunity to operate the layout. I always try to get the kids involved, as they are the future of our hobby. (Jordan's son is my 'assistant operator' at TVNAM and he and his friends take over the layout!!). It can be a bit difficult to work to any pre-conceived plan, by hey, most of the public just want to watch something moving! My latest layout, the Dan Patch Line, was shown at Gosport last Saturday, and is operated from behind the backscene.I must say that I felt as if it were me on show, as well as the layout. It's definitely a different feeling. As a visitor, I would be more likely to interact with an operator in front of a layout, but that's a personal choice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted November 23, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 23, 2011 I operate two of my layouts, Hoxie Harbor and Kuppla Yard from the front. This is a great way not only to encourage verbally interaction ,but also to give 'selected' members of the public an opportunity to operate the layout. I always try to get the kids involved, as they are the future of our hobby. (Jordan's son is my 'assistant operator' at TVNAM and he and his friends take over the layout!!). It can be a bit difficult to work to any pre-conceived plan, by hey, most of the public just want to watch something moving! We have plenty of guest operators running Widnes, if we notice someone who appears keen we ask them if they want a go - nothing to do with running from the front or the middle or the back, it's to do with watching the watchers. All the guest operators get basic signal and MILF training and all appear to cope well, we had around 10 guests,of varying ages, at the recent Merseyside show and no crashes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted November 23, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 23, 2011 One advantage of the DCC wireless operation we now employ is that the operators can move about. On 'Roundhouse' the old panel was either rmounted on the front at one end of the layout or the side of the layout depending on the space available at an exhibition. Now with the wireless throttle the panel has gone and operators doing the switching (shunting) can now move around as they please either mingling with the viewers or moving out of their way. We do have one operator in particular who often lets the kids or adults have a go on the wireless throttle but he is also large enough to reach over the three foot wide baseboards from the back to do this aswell!! As to the glamour model... still working on that one but dont tell my other half!! Ian Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigZ Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Most of the exhibition layouts in the US are the modular club type where there is a big loop. the operators stand in the middle and face the crowd. Upside: The operators always face the crowd and are available to answer questions. Some shows I've been to, the club has actually designated a person to to go around, either inside or outside the loop and engage the viewers. Downside: with the operators inside the operation generally is limited to a "NASA mission" (try and keep as much equipment orbiting with nothing hitting the ground). Lot of that is true. We're a bit different. We look at the main lines as moving scenery to keep the punters happy. But we have extensive secondary trackage where we can play/shunt to our hearts content. The main lines run smoothly and reliably enough that one person typically looks after them, often walking around the outside to chat. Plus we have very little in the way of backdrops so the guys inside are more accessible for interrogation We were set up a couple of weekends ago here in Raleigh, NC...some on-board footage here cab ride style. Turn down the volume as there's a lot of audio dreck here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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