Bachmann Midland Pullman

[43179]

If you have a better design of coupling then please feel free to post it up here...

 

bearing in mind that it has to carry a 4-pole electrical connection and have sufficient strength to work the close coupling whilst resisting the forces of motors at each end of a rather heavy six coach train,

 

Back to my reference to Japanese n gauge emus - why not use the actual gangways to make the physical coupling - and also contain the electrical connections - as I've said before - Japanese models sorted this years ago - no unsightly electrical connections , and not just close - but proper touching gangways.

 

tfn

 

Jon

[Ian Hargrave]

A theory postulated by quite a few WR Drivers was that they were got shot of because they would have shown up the HST when it arrived (i.e. the cab was more acceptable as a workplace than that of the HST?, I doubt if many Drivers actually travelled in them on the cushions; but I do think the catering service was far better than that on HSTs)

I can vouch for the quality of the catering and for its reasonable cost.I had an excellent on-board meal on the Paddington-Birmigham teatime Pullman in early 1964. I could actually afford it on a (then) young teacher's salary (£630 pa). The meal was great....the ride was rough,I'm afraid. B.R. Pullman catering was top-notch for the time and ordinary Restaurant Car catering wasn't bad,either,despite what legend may tell . Best meal on rail? A 1956 up South Wales Pullman (Car 37?) Cardiff-Paddington behind a Landore Castle.

[The Stationmaster]

 

The timing really is 'interesting'. Bachmann having previously expressed doubts about viability of this very product, then took the plunge - presumably based on good financial results in response to raising product quality - and now find themselves selling it in diffficult market conditions. You couldn't engineer a better test for what the market will really stand in pricing to get a better quality RTR product. Hopefully another significant way point in burying the old attitude of 'got to be cheap and cheerful for the OO market' which left our RTR bogged down in mediocrity for so many decades while HO improved steadily.

I bet Bachmann did a lot of very careful market research with retailers before they committed themselves! We don't know the scale of production or its economics but presumably they are in effect doing a limited edition so that will encourage those who might sit on the fence waiting for a price drop to come charging forwards as it might also encourage those who are the 'hmm, maybe' camp. Overall, like you, I've no doubt there is a market for better quality RTR and events of the last few years seem to have shown that but I suspect we are probably talking about a relatively small market - much akin to commissioned models perhaps with only 1,000 - 2,000 or so made.

 

If we transfer it to a larger scale let's look at two forthcoming examples from Hornby - you will perhaps buy an O1 and I will be buying a 72XX and both of these look to be to a pretty good standard, far better than the offerings of 20 years ago in the mass market. But how many of each will Hornby produce, will they still be thinking in 'toyshop' numbers yet produce more highly detailed and expensive models which might not have such a large potential market? Again we don't know the answer but if they get their numbers wrong and over-produce will they look with greater caution at the hi-fidelity market? I don't know but, whatever, I suspect anyone commiting in the way Bachmann has to the Midland Pullman will be doing some very careful market assessment first.

[nse_for_me]

Sorry if this has been posted previously but here is a rather nice you-tube video of the new set.

[Andy Y]

Sorry if this has been posted previously but here is a rather nice you-tube video of the new set.

 

 

Yup that's when the pics on Page 15 were done.

[gwrrob]

Whos going to be the first to show their own weathered example on here. Christmas has come early for some people.

[stewartingram]

But how many of each will Hornby produce, will they still be thinking in 'toyshop' numbers yet produce more highly detailed and expensive models which might not have such a large potential market? Again we don't know the answer but if they get their numbers wrong and over-produce will they look with greater caution at the hi-fidelity market? I don't know but, whatever, I suspect anyone commiting in the way Bachmann has to the Midland Pullman will be doing some very careful market assessment first.

 

During the mid-80's I went back to tech college to re-do an electronics/comms course for my new employer. This time round, one of the units for the course was Economics, in the context of an engineer wanting to run a business. A simple low level course, but something from that still sticks in my mind.

Basically, you do your market research, so you can forecast your sales over a period of time, and the price that the market will buy at. You have fixed costs per unit - each item uses X amount of plastic, Y amount of labour, etc, and you have variable costs - the factory costs Z amount to run (rent, heat etc) whether you produce 100 items or 100,000. (That's my simplified version btw). You decide that if you make N items in the '1st period' (say 1 year, or possibly longer), and sell them, at a certain price which includes your profit, then the R&D costs are paid for, in other words 'year 2' sees a bigger profit on each item.

Now take say a Hornby B12. Our 'year 2' is now actually around' year 50' - so no R&D, just fixed costs (with a small % of the total company variable costs added) so it maximises profits.

Take a modern example, say the Hornby 31 (ignore chassis problems though). My guess is that they have gone through 'year 1', possibly into 'year 2', but not continued production. Don't forget, if they produce a green one that is the main R&D. A later modified version, say grey one, will also incur a relatively small extra R&D for the mods, much cheaper than designing a completely new model.

There are many other examples of this restricted manufacture, possibly slightly more so with Hornby, but also with Bachmann etc.

Are we already seeing a change in how items are produced? Maybe the 'Year 1' is being reached ok, but with a higher initial launch price to recoup profits earlier. Then once sales have started to fall (to retailers of course) the model is rested, maybe for ever.

I feel that the BP will reach 'year 1' easily with the 1st batch, judging by feedback I've heard from retailers with pre-orders; maybe there won't be enough demand of guaranteed retail sales to the public for shops to put in a 2nd order with Bachmann, so they may not produce any more. A clever marketing ploy is the option of doing the jumpered cab ends however, which might tip the balance.

Factor in the cheap Chinese production over the last 10 years, and the increase in price has not really been noticed by us. Now take into account the inflated Chinese prices, and suddenly the price mark-up for earlier R&D pay-off bcomes rather noticeable.

 

Stewart

[Andy Y]

Maybe the 'Year 1' is being reached ok, but with a higher initial launch price to recoup profits earlier.

 

I believe that's the sound of a nail being well and truly hit on the head Stewart. We're going through a 'golden age' of numerous releases and exploration of niches, most of which are unlikely to have the volume of buyers or longevity of an A3 with Flying Scotsman on the nameplate or blue A4 with Mallard on it which will be perennial achievers. The nearest we've got to that from new releases is 'Tornado'. Any manufacturer who's got their accountant's head screwed on the right way round will try to make sure releases cover themselves in Year 1 or they're incurring a longer term liability rather than benefit.

 

Especially as a retailer commissioning a product of relatively limited run needs to make it pay this will increasingly set the stall out for product pricing. Don't expect prices to fall after Y1 though as the volumes manufactured will generally be smaller with higher costs per unit. Why? Because there'll be whole new raft of shiny things competing for the modellers pound in Y2 onwards.

 

Simplistically that's why certain products are not in catalogues for so long these days.

[petee19]

I have a BP on order and I understand that it will be ready for DCC,I still operate DC,but gather it should run without any problems.

 

What does concern me is the fact that it has two motors,can it be assumed that both will run at the same speed,if I run my two 4CEP's or two 2EPB's together, but not connected, eventually one will catch the other up,which signals to me that both motors are running a different speeds,is this likely to be a problem with the BP that one end will be running faster than the other.

[dibber25]

I have a BP on order and I understand that it will be ready for DCC,I still operate DC,but gather it should run without any problems.

 

What does concern me is the fact that it has two motors,can it be assumed that both will run at the same speed,if I run my two 4CEP's or two 2EPB's together, but not connected, eventually one will catch the other up,which signals to me that both motors are running a different speeds,is this likely to be a problem with the BP that one end will be running faster than the other.

 

I run two 4CEPs and an MLV together and don't have any problems. Yes, there may be a slight variation in speed if you run them separately but it is unlikely to be a problem when they are coupled together with a pretty rigid coupling system. The BP shows no signs of any problem. The mechanisms run beautifully together. The model is DCC FITTED. It runs fine on analog but you must NOT run it on analog if you are using high frequency (Relco-type) track cleaners.

CHRIS LEIGH

[stewartingram]

I have a BP on order and I understand that it will be ready for DCC,I still operate DC,but gather it should run without any problems.

 

What does concern me is the fact that it has two motors,can it be assumed that both will run at the same speed,if I run my two 4CEP's or two 2EPB's together, but not connected, eventually one will catch the other up,which signals to me that both motors are running a different speeds,is this likely to be a problem with the BP that one end will be running faster than the other.

I keep hearing this chestnut of 2 motors not being compatible. Maybe it is me, but in all my modelling years I've never really had a problem running 2 locos double-headed (which is effectively what the BP is). And I'm talking 2 different locos, not 2 more or less identical ones.

For instance, I've had a 1970's Triang-Hornby 4472, that is the one with an X04 in the loco, 20:1 gearing, large drivers, which would probably run at a scale speed of 140-150mph. Coupled to it I've had my old faithful Wills J69. A heavy whitemetal loco with small wheels, 80:1 gears, a 5 pole (MW005?) motor inside giving it a top speed of 40-50mph I guess. Coupled together, they find their own levels. As the J69 is heavy, no dragging along by the A3; no wheelspin by the A3 either. Nor was there any noticeable increase in motor temperatures.

Yes I've seen a very lightweight loco - such as one of the Lima 'toy' locos -spinning merrily when coupled to something heavy & slow, but that is hardly a fair comparison?

I've had problems where each loco has had intermittent pickup, causing jerky running of either loco, but again with good pickups, as most now have, that isn't an issue.

I've not seen a BP run yet, apart from the Bacchy video, but I've been told it is superb. Let's not worry too much about this guys!

 

Stewart

[Crewlisle]

I raised this problem with Bachmann earlier this year because I was concerned about jacknifing if the leading motor hit a 'dead' section with a motor at the front and back and would the motors be running at the same speed. Bachmann's reply was, 'There should not be a problem as the coupling socket arrangement chosen for the model would not allow jackknifing.' This is very reassuring as I will be running it at a scale speed. My original more detailed comments were on reply 228.

[Ian Hargrave]

I keep hearing this chestnut of 2 motors not being compatible. Maybe it is me, but in all my modelling years I've never really had a problem running 2 locos double-headed (which is effectively what the BP is). And I'm talking 2 different locos, not 2 more or less identical ones.

For instance, I've had a 1970's Triang-Hornby 4472, that is the one with an X04 in the loco, 20:1 gearing, large drivers, which would probably run at a scale speed of 140-150mph. Coupled to it I've had my old faithful Wills J69. A heavy whitemetal loco with small wheels, 80:1 gears, a 5 pole (MW005?) motor inside giving it a top speed of 40-50mph I guess. Coupled together, they find their own levels. As the J69 is heavy, no dragging along by the A3; no wheelspin by the A3 either. Nor was there any noticeable increase in motor temperatures.

Yes I've seen a very lightweight loco - such as one of the Lima 'toy' locos -spinning merrily when coupled to something heavy & slow, but that is hardly a fair comparison?

I've had problems where each loco has had intermittent pickup, causing jerky running of either loco, but again with good pickups, as most now have, that isn't an issue.

I've not seen a BP run yet, apart from the Bacchy video, but I've been told it is superb. Let's not worry too much about this guys!

 

Stewart

Totally agree--no problems here,either

[Andy1963]

When I was trying to run full length HST's using the original Hornby power cars, I found they were not heavy enough or powerful enough to go up my curved inclines, especially with the dummy power car leading. I tried running 2 power cars, although it did not solve the climbing problem, they never caused any derailments as suggested above and they were seriously rubbish motors with rubbish pick ups. When this failed, I also tried 2 x Lima powered power cars and again, I had no derailment problems even with the light weight Joeff Mk3's I was using at the time. Unable to solve my hill climb problem I found a thread on this site by someone who had converted their buffet car to a powered car using a Bachmann DMU chassis. Inspired by this, I did the same and now run 2 dummy power cars with no problems at all. I am sure the BP will run beautifully with no jack knifing or derailing problems, but for a 6 car train having 2 motors is over kill, I don't know why they just didn't power one of the coaches like I have following the advise from a fellow modeller. Would have made the model cheaper.

[Coach bogie]

I don't know why they just didn't power one of the coaches like I have following the advise from a fellow modeller. Would have made the model cheaper.

 

It may not be cheaper. Economies of scale figures may show it more economical to set up production line for just one powered car rather than two separate lines, one for powered, one for dummy (with extra tooling costs for non powered section of model). With a one off run, as this appears to be, I can see the cost of two production lines being greater than a single line, even if the overall single line raw materials cost are greater.Current design by Bachmann requires a machine set up for only three individual vehicles with detail alterations at livery stage. With a dummy car they would be producing four, with the requirement for a separate undeframe tooling for the non powered section.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[stewartingram]

As I've understood it so far, and I may have got this wrong, so can anyone confirm please?

 

The Bacchy 6-car BP is actually 2x 3-car units, running back to back.

 

Within each unit there is a motored power car and 2 trailers. All vehicles have lighting, with through wiring between cars (of each unit, but not between sets) and pickups on each wheel. There is also a separate DCC chip in each unit,

 

So the pickup arrangement is - as I would prefer it to be OTT thus giving better reliability.

 

Is the above correct or have I got it wrong?

 

Stewart

[Trains4U]

As I've understood it so far, and I may have got this wrong, so can anyone confirm please?

 

The Bacchy 6-car BP is actually 2x 3-car units, running back to back.

 

Within each unit there is a motored power car and 2 trailers. All vehicles have lighting, with through wiring between cars (of each unit, but not between sets) and pickups on each wheel. There is also a separate DCC chip in each unit,

 

So the pickup arrangement is - as I would prefer it to be OTT thus giving better reliability.

 

Is the above correct or have I got it wrong?

 

Stewart

 

Correct Stuart.

 

The coupling between the two half-sets has no electrical connection.

[Colin_McLeod]

That should be easy to fix.

 

Two track wires run through the corridor connection would mean both halfs would have pick up on all pick up wheels of the train thus really minimising the risk of stalling. I would keep the DCC side of things separate to avoid problems.

[Trains4U]

I don't think it needs fixing colin!

With pickup for each motor on 12 axles should be sufficient to prevent stalling.

 

there are no guarantees as to what might happen if you link the two sets electrically (Circuit board arrangements/ lighting etc) even if the decoders are replaced with blanking plugs.

 

i think the work and risk outweighs any percieved necessity (Unless you have two-foot long neutral sections on your layout?).

[stewartingram]

Correct Stuart.

 

The coupling between the two half-sets has no electrical connection.

 

Thanks for clarifying that Gareth, just as I expected then.

 

Stewart

[Colin_McLeod]

Might be a problem if you run into a dead section, for example some automated circuits. In that situation, the front half would stop and the rear half would still be pushing, If the two halfs are connected, then nothing stops until the whole train is in the dead section.

 

Connecting the pick up should not cause problems, as there is a parallel electrical connection through the track anyway. As stated above I would not connect the DCC side of things.

 

 

Colin

[two tone green]

No reason at all not to connect things together from a pick up point of view, makes electrical sense for running reliability and as Colin says, has knock on effects with automated running.

 

Also from a Railcom point of view, if the train is seen as one big long one rather than two separate ones, irrespective of which end enters a detection zone first, it is picked up and identified.

 

I have a Hornby HST with decoders in each end and cars wired through for better pick up for traction and lighting power and also to report the train with Railcom from either end. Works well.

 

You must remember through with the current configuration of railcom, only one railcom unit per block can be detected so if you have two railcom enabled decoders, you must turn railcom off in one of the or you will have problems.

[45568]

The model is DCC FITTED. It runs fine on analog but you must NOT run it on analog if you are using high frequency (Relco-type) track cleaners.

CHRIS LEIGH

 

Thanks for underlining this Chris. I do use Relcos, they are wired into the circuit, and I already have a good friend on standby to de-chip! Any loss of lighting variables will not detract from the unit!

Cheers,

Peter C.

[Blobrick]

Well if all the Midland Pullman sets have already sold, that must bode well for a possible WR set?. The trouble is if not, then the only option is a Midland set just as they were transfered to the WR in 1966, however I think they had the MJ cables fitted before they entered revenue earning traffic, so a crew training run is the only excuse left!!

 

Bob.C

 

Well I ve been searching though all the infomation that I can find and I have been unable to find any photos showing a Midland Pullman unit on the Western after transfer in 1966, before the fitment of the MU jumper cables, so looks like Mr Bachmann wont be getting any pennies from me this time!

[The Stationmaster]

Well I ve been searching though all the infomation that I can find and I have been unable to find any photos showing a Midland Pullman unit on the Western after transfer in 1966, before the fitment of the MU jumper cables, so looks like Mr Bachmann wont be getting any pennies from me this time!

Well they definitely ran on the WR in that state - but almost certainly never like that in public service. Already much discussed earlier in this thread with attention drawn to various published photographs.