Peter Kazmierczak Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Just had another look at the film and at the beginning of the journey the staff walk past a power car with red seats. Hence, the possible colour of seats in a Midland Pullman set were: Red/Blue/Red for one half set and Blue/Red/Blue for the adjoining one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted July 7, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 7, 2012 And Bachmann clearly do want to get it out in two liveries! [tongue in cheek mode] Why not do a network rail livery [/ tongue in cheek mode] Or would that make it a yellow pullman. (B) Where's my coat?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Well, knock me down with a feather duster.... thanks to my lovely other half Sue, I now have a copy of Kevin Roberton's BP 'Supplement' book, an early and very unexpected birthday present which arrived today, so.... diving in with both feet and checking the photos and captions in both books very carefully, I think we're now a lot closer to unravelling the mystery of the 'custard dipped' livery as applied to the Bachmann model, and just as importantly, what kind of treatment the power car at the other end was given. On pages 62 and 63 of the Supplement there are five black and white photos of the 'custard dipped' ex-Midland six-car set stabled just outside the Pullman Shed at Old Oak, taken by Electrical Fitter Derek Everson on Wednesday 8th November 1966 ; the power car at the Paddington end is M60092, which is wearing the srange 'apron' shaped yellow panel seen here (and earlier on in the thread) on another ex-Midland power car M60090 at Swindon Works in July... http://www.flickr.co...ool-bluepullman ... while the one at the country end is M60093, which has had the all over yellow end applied as per the previously doubted Bachmann realease. Now then, tying this in with the 'test run at Newbury' photo posted further up the thread is the fact that the yellow on M60093 is quite workstained (noticable in the side profile shot on page 63) which suggests Derek's photographs were taken after a test run, which logically in turn means this particular unit went out on the mainline with two different versions of yellow end treatment. Whether or not anyone else captured it on film in this condition during this short test run phase we may never know, but from the above, it seems that the livery as applied by Bachmann is basically 'half right'. Bearing in mind that the 'Midland Pullman' logo was left intact during the test runs, it would be quite easy to replicate this set just by painting out part of the yellow area on one of the power cars to match the flickr shot above. It's clear from previous posts that this strange livery variation is not everyone's cup of tea to start with, but having looked at Kevin's books again, I'm tempted to go with the 8/11/66 photos when I acquire a set. Not having a layout to run it on at present means it doesn't necessarily have to 'fit in' with anything else, and besides it would make for an interesting model. Whether it ran like this for one day or one week makes no difference to me.... any thoughts gents? I have the supplement too and the photos point to the custard-dip livery being applied to only one end of a set. I have yet to see any evidence that both ends of a set carried the livery style. Bachmann appear to be confident of its authenticity so perhaps they could point us to conclusive evidence that both ends of a set carreid the style and confirm the vehicle numbers? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 It's clear from previous posts that this strange livery variation is not everyone's cup of tea to start with, but having looked at Kevin's books again, I'm tempted to go with the 8/11/66 photos when I acquire a set. Not having a layout to run it on at present means it doesn't necessarily have to 'fit in' with anything else, and besides it would make for an interesting model. Whether it ran like this for one day or one week makes no difference to me.... any thoughts gents? If ever there was a train that justified the use of Rule #1, this is it! I agree that a train running even once is ample justification for modelling it. On a similar note, I am planning to run a 6-car BP in original livery on my WR layout because I prefer this livery. I don't like the yellow ends and Bachmann (justifiably) don't seem likely to produce the 8-car version any time soon. Kev Robertson's book features a shot of an MR pullman still in original condition working the Paddington - Oxford service. The MR sets may have received yellow ends soon after they arrived on the WR but for me, any time at all in original livery is sufficient for me to run one in that condition. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 If ever there was a train that justified the use of Rule #1, this is it! I agree that a train running even once is ample justification for modelling it. On a similar note, I am planning to run a 6-car BP in original livery on my WR layout because I prefer this livery. I don't like the yellow ends and Bachmann (justifiably) don't seem likely to produce the 8-car version any time soon. Kev Robertson's book features a shot of an MR pullman still in original condition working the Paddington - Oxford service. The MR sets may have received yellow ends soon after they arrived on the WR but for me, any time at all in original livery is sufficient for me to run one in that condition. Are you referring to the photo on page 146 of the book, where the caption mentions a possible Paddington - Oxford service...? If so, this is possibly wrongly identified since the station doesn't resemble any of those actually on the route (I sign the route and don't recognise it!). I strongly suspect the picture was taken eslewhere possibly on a test run, at an earlier date than the Padd-OXF Pullman ran... it started in early '67, by which the time both six-car sets had already been fitted with the MW gear and had the yellow ends applied. All go isn't it...! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy P Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Whilst taking on board all that has been said regarding the liveries available to Bachmann, and considering what we see at times from the RTR suppliers, I wonder if there would be any takers for an ex-midland 6-car issued in a livery style as seen on the WR but leaving the individual modeller to make the necessary adjustments (jumper cables etc.) to their own satisfaction. RP. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I have the supplement too and the photos point to the custard-dip livery being applied to only one end of a set. I have yet to see any evidence that both ends of a set carried the livery style. Bachmann appear to be confident of its authenticity so perhaps they could point us to conclusive evidence that both ends of a set carreid the style and confirm the vehicle numbers? I honestly don't think they did Robert... I have a feeling Bachmann just looked at the photos of M60093 on page 63 in Kevin's Supplement and decided they'd do both power cars with the all over yellow ends and leave it at that, without making the connection that the other end of the same set is shown on the opposite page with a different style of yellow end. Personally I have no quibble with Derek Everson's information on his photos or Kevin's captions that go along with them, Derek has had some of his other Old Oak shots from the same period published in recent years and as far as I can see the dates of those and info in his captions are spot on (by identifying and checking livery dates with other locos in the background I can pin dates down accordingly). *Having re-read what I've just typed above it may seem like I'm having a crack at Bachmann here, far from it though, I'm just making the point that I think they only have it half right and Derek and Kevin have got it right on this occasion. As I've said before, I do understand why a lot of potential buyers are put off by this livery but, as it stands, anyone who does buy this version has three alternatives regarding what they can do with it.... 1. just run it straight out of the box as it is in "it's my layout and I'll run what I want'' mode, 2. leave one power car as it is and partially repaint the other to match the photos on page 62 of the Supplement and the flickr photo linked earlier, to represent the unit on the test runs down the Berks & Hants line in November '66, 3. go the whole hog and repaint both ends to match (see pages 64 and 65 of the Supplement) and add their own multiple working gear, to represent an ex-Midland Pullman six-car set as running on the Western Region from early '67 onwards. Hope that's clear! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I honestly don't think they did Robert... I have a feeling Bachmann just looked at the photos of M60093 on page 63 in Kevin's Supplement and decided they'd do both power cars with the all over yellow ends and leave it at that, without making the connection that the other end of the same set is shown on the opposite page with a different style of yellow end. Personally I have no quibble with Derek Everson's information on his photos or Kevin's captions that go along with them, Derek has had some of his other Old Oak shots from the same period published in recent years and as far as I can see the dates of those and info in his captions are spot on (by identifying and checking livery dates with other locos in the background I can pin dates down accordingly). *Having re-read what I've just typed above it may seem like I'm having a crack at Bachmann here, far from it though, I'm just making the point that I think they only have it half right and Derek and Kevin have got it right on this occasion. As I've said before, I do understand why a lot of potential buyers are put off by this livery but, as it stands, anyone who does buy this version has three alternatives regarding what they can do with it.... 1. just run it straight out of the box as it is in "it's my layout and I'll run what I want'' mode, 2. leave one power car as it is and partially repaint the other to match the photos on page 62 of the Supplement and the flickr photo linked earlier, to represent the unit on the test runs down the Berks & Hants line in November '66, 3. go the whole hog and repaint both ends to match (see pages 64 and 65 of the Supplement) and add their own multiple working gear, to represent an ex-Midland Pullman six-car set as running on the Western Region from early '67 onwards. Hope that's clear! Hi Nidge, I wouldn't say you were having a crack at them but I did post some way back http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/47862-Bachmann-midland-pullman/page__st__250&do=findComment&comment=723471 that they're indeed aware of the inconclusive information and the assumptions on which the production of the livery are based. Questions seem to persist here and on MREmag as to why they don't produce the later WR liveries without folk sitting down and reading up to learn that reproducing some kind of Triang retro-look would just be wrong. I honestly think Bachmann have gone as far as they can in delivering an alternative that is credible. Even worse would have been people clamouring for an alternative livery if it had only announced a single all over Nanking release. To return to Colin's post: http://www.flickr.co...ol-bluepullman/ if the Bachmann livery is so rare that it requires such intensive research to prove it actually ran at all, and even then it is only "half right" in that the power car at the other end did not match, then my thoughts are as follows: Bachmann can either sell the custard dip version for a small production run and let it become a collectible item, and then produce the more normal yellow version later OR Admit that the model is not very typical and, if it is not too late, replace the custard dip livery with a more typical one. The answer is A, but only half right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Whilst taking on board all that has been said regarding the liveries available to Bachmann, and considering what we see at times from the RTR suppliers, I wonder if there would be any takers for an ex-midland 6-car issued in a livery style as seen on the WR but leaving the individual modeller to make the necessary adjustments (jumper cables etc.) to their own satisfaction. I think that if people are confident enough to add their own MU cables then painting the yellow warning panels on would not be a problem. You could start with the original livery, add yellow panels and remove the Midland branding. I suspect that would easier than trying to match the nanking blue paint in order to reshape the panels on the full-yellow-end version. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEngineShed Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 orcadian, on 07 July 2012 - 13:48 , said: And Bachmann clearly do want to get it out in two liveries! [tongue in cheek mode] Why not do a network rail livery [/ tongue in cheek mode] I'm all for a Network Rail WR eight car set if it will get us there... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 they could do the very first variation with half white kitchen cars and no pullman crest on the front, at least there is some footage of that on test. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I think that if people are confident enough to add their own MU cables then painting the yellow warning panels on would not be a problem. You could start with the original livery, add yellow panels and remove the Midland branding. I suspect that would easier than trying to match the nanking blue paint in order to reshape the panels on the full-yellow-end version. I'd say if you were going down that route it would actually be easier to start with the custard dipped version and repaint the nanking blue areas, as the touched up parts on the real power cars didn't quite match the existing blue paint - see my post slightly earlier in the thread which mentions the colour photo published in Model Rail a while back! Andy - thanks for that BTW - just something I thought worth a recap (I can't remember how far back I originally mentioned it!), the earliest published photograph I've found so far of one of the modified ex-Midland six-car sets in public service on the WR appeared in an article in Traction Magazine and shows power car W60093 at Paddington at the head of the 12.15 to Oxford on Wednesday 22nd February 1967.... a pertinent detail being that it has now lost it's LMR prefix for a WR one, the chances are this was done when the MW gear was fitted after the November '66 test runs were complete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy P Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I think that if people are confident enough to add their own MU cables then painting the yellow warning panels on would not be a problem. You could start with the original livery, add yellow panels and remove the Midland branding. I suspect that would easier than trying to match the nanking blue paint in order to reshape the panels on the full-yellow-end version. Spot on!! Personally I have more interest in the original Midland Pullman but I am fascinated by the ongoing debate. I suspect that now we are seeing what Bachmann have achieved, More people than might have been expected are showing interest in an item that not long ago dare not speak it's name. Regarding the "retro Tri-ang" liveries, I can understand Bachmann's reluctance to go down that route though I would bet that a fair few of the new product will be purchased due to nostalgia for an old train set as much as for the units themselves. RP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted July 8, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 8, 2012 I suppose it was down to a choice between an accurate but very short lived livery, or a longer lived livery with the jumper cable detail inaccurate. At a first glance the latter seems more acceptable to the "average" modeller even if not 100% true to prototype. If I were making decisions in Bachmann I would go for the latter, but then I'm not! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Wouldn't Bachmann have had an eye on the jumper-fitted power cars when designing their moulds in the first place, to accommodate this variant? Or maybe not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Wouldn't Bachmann have had an eye on the jumper-fitted power cars when designing their moulds in the first place, to accommodate this variant? Only Bachmann can answer this question for sure but I think they probably did. Someone observed a fine mould line just behind the cab which would be consistent with a "slide" (these are used to change just one part of a tooling). I have not seen it myself yet but if it is there the it suggests Bachmann have planned ahead for the possibilty. Denis Lovet's quote above was that Bachmann "would need to modify the tooling" for the later WR cab fittings. Whether this implies a modular cab, a new power car tooling or reworking the existing tooling is not clear. I am frequently guilty of leaping to conclusions based on the flimsiest of evidence so I shall try to hold my horses on this subject. I would like to think that if the initial run sells well then the modified front end version might be on the cards at some point. The thing to remember is that Bachmann are not likely to announce that the later version is going to be following in 12 months time because they want people to buy now[/now]. HOw many people would hold off if they knew for sure the later version was coming? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Hi Nidge, I wouldn't say you were having a crack at them but I did post some way back http://www.rmweb.co....250#entry723471 that they're indeed aware of the inconclusive information and the assumptions on which the production of the livery are based. Questions seem to persist here and on MREmag as to why they don't produce the later WR liveries without folk sitting down and reading up to learn that reproducing some kind of Triang retro-look would just be wrong. I honestly think Bachmann have gone as far as they can in delivering an alternative that is credible. Thanks for that - I missed the post you refer to as I haven't been following this thread the whole way through. So, Bachmann are doing a livery they are not sure is entirely genuine (ie whether both power cars carried the all-over yellow). It's good to see they acknowledge this. They really need to look into modifying the ends to carry the jumpers as I reckon they would sell more of that version in the two liveries combined than of the original because some will have room for a 12-car set or might have one in each livery (not that I think they ran like that in service as the two six-car sets were repainted in close succession in 1970). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 9, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2012 If ever there was a train that justified the use of Rule #1, this is it! I agree that a train running even once is ample justification for modelling it. On a similar note, I am planning to run a 6-car BP in original livery on my WR layout because I prefer this livery. I don't like the yellow ends and Bachmann (justifiably) don't seem likely to produce the 8-car version any time soon. Kev Robertson's book features a shot of an MR pullman still in original condition working the Paddington - Oxford service. The MR sets may have received yellow ends soon after they arrived on the WR but for me, any time at all in original livery is sufficient for me to run one in that condition. Having now got access to a copy to look at that picture I can confirm Nidge's comment that it isn't on an Oxford working. In fact the pic wasn't taken anywhere between Paddington & Oxford via Didcot and looks to me to be most likely at a station on the Joint Line (Saunderton, on the Up Main, is my current choice but it does need some more research to establish a definite answer). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Downendian Posted July 9, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2012 An 8 car WR Pullman as per early 1970s? Reverse Blue/Grey. Perish the idea, that would be frothing wouldn't it surely? Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted July 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 10, 2012 Conclusive proof that a six-car Midland Pullman set worked a special from Bristol to Bournemouth over the Somerset & Dorset sometime in the early 1960s - this footage is believed not to have come from Ivo Peters, but the notes with the film states that the camera man had gone out for a days photography on the line and that this had come along unexpectedly. He hung around and captured the return working, too... Thanks to Richard from Bachmann for his very kind cooperation! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Shocking; is there no end to one man's efforts to re-write history. It's bad enough getting people to understand the scope or limitations of where something can be legitimately used or seen and then you come along. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Having now got access to a copy to look at that picture I can confirm Nidge's comment that it isn't on an Oxford working. In fact the pic wasn't taken anywhere between Paddington & Oxford via Didcot and looks to me to be most likely at a station on the Joint Line (Saunderton, on the Up Main, is my current choice but it does need some more research to establish a definite answer). Having another think about that particular photo Mike, a thought occured this morning - given that it was most likely taken after both of the Midland Pullman unit's had ceased working out of St.Pancras, it could well be the set which we've already seen here on flickr... http://www.flickr.co...57628092080622/ the other end of which still had the original paint job on the power car... http://www.flickr.co...57628092080622/ .... this to me seems the most likely expanation anyway . I really do wish I'd paid more attention to the tales some of the old hands used to tell me at Old Oak back in the 80s, two of the senior men in the Birmingham Link I worked with regularly were in the BP Link in the '60s - I wish I'd known more about it at the time so as to ask them what they remembered from those days. Too late now, alas. CK - can we look forward to a long lost batch of Ivo's photos appearing soon I wonder...."Ivo Peters & The Somerset & Dorset - The Blue Pullman Years" !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Nidge - does that powercar have a white window surround, and the lower yellow warning panel? I can't tell on this monitor. Looks rather smart that, as an inbetweener sort of livery. Possible livery variant? EDIT: Nope, forget that, just seen the picture to the left of it where the window surrounds are yellow. But again, that looks a more interesting livery variant than the all over yellow ends (personally speaking). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 EDIT: Nope, forget that, just seen the picture to the left of it where the window surrounds are yellow. But again, that looks a more interesting livery variant than the all over yellow ends (personally speaking). I am inclined to agree, and assuming that the photo in Kevin Robertson's book is of the opposite end of the same set (which we know from the B&W flickr images was still in original livery) we have a possible candidate for a livery that was used on the mainline and not just applied in the depot. This is a possible combo that might satisfy those who want to run the current version on the WR and be historically accurate. Personally I think I will stick to the original blue version even though I have a WR layout. Rule #1 still applies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 10, 2012 BUT ... the set at Swindon has the yellow nose London end which is the same end that is visible in the Saunderton(?) pic - assuming that it is Saunderton and that the set wasn't turned. But a more critical difference is the 'non-yellow' end in the Swindon pics has ohle warning stickers on the white window surrounds, which don't seem to be present in the set at Saunderton(?). So as we count the angels dancing on the head of a pin we now have an interesting variant with ohle warning stickers on a non-yellow end - was that done at Swindon I wonder? Overall I reckon Karhedron has the answer - apply Rule No.1 because we'll probably never know the answer to all the other imponderables of various experiments and changes which seem to have taken place - transiently - at about the time the 6 car sets arrived on the Western Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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