Ebay no longer cheap

[trisonic]

What's the position on VAT with regard to items sold on Ebay in the UK?

 

I ask because there are some mutterings going on in the US about both Federal taxes and local State taxes being ridden roughshod over.

 

Best, Pete.

[Deathsleigh]

Going back to the kit topic , I occasionally look for 7mm loco kits that have been abandoned and have , in the past , got some superb bargains. For example last year I picked up a LNWR precursor tank which just required painting and brake gear doing for a shade over £100. Took me 4 hours to get it into traffic.

One strange thing that I've noticed is when a 7mm loco is advertised,invariably it is complete but never with any brake gear! I've never been able to fathom this!

[The Stationmaster]

What's the position on VAT with regard to items sold on Ebay in the UK?

I ask because there are some mutterings going on in the US about both Federal taxes and local State taxes being ridden roughshod over.

Best, Pete.

I presume the usual arrangements apply as to any normal auction in that if I as an ordinary individual sell through EBay there should be a VAT charge solely on their commission/charges - in very simplistic terms = item sells for £100, the [EBay] commission etc is, say, 10% = £10 and the VAT is only charged on that £10. However if a retailer is selling through EBay I cannot see how they can avoid a VAT liability on the sale price because they are conducting a retail transaction on an item which is subject to VAT - therefore they are paying several times over and I can quite see why Gareth sees it as an expensive way for a trader to sell .

 

I'm not sure what would happen (or should happen) if you were to sell through EBay into the UK. The normal position is that if an item is imported for auction VAT is payable on the hammer price as well as on the auctioneer's commission/charges, so there are two lots of VAT (which should be charged separately).

Edited September 25, 2011 by The Stationmaster

[John M Upton]

I vaguely recall reading something, may have been as long as two or three years ago now that the Inland Revenue were starting to look at how income from on-line auctions and car boot sales etc could be taxed as they have become increasingly aware that many so called 'private' sellers are actually making a substantial living out of this and not paying any income tax or business rates on the proceeds which they would be if they were a business seller.

 

I gather the consensus was that it was virtually unenforceable but the tax man is lurking in the shadows and one day he will pounce...

[hayfield]

Taking the thread back to "Ebay no longer cheap" it is if you are prepared to look for items.

 

This week I brought 4 sealed packets of PC sprung buffers, each packet I got for the starting price of 99p, also from the same chap I got an unopened packet of Cambrian 2 brass brake standards for £1.80. Each item had P&P of 80p which the seller kindly reduced to £1

 

Another lot had a pair of K's GWR Dean bogies (1 side casting broken) and a jumble of wheels, for 99p + 2.50 p&p. I have 1 K's Dean bogie (other got broken) but within the wheels were 3 pairs of Kean type spoked wagon wheels, 1 pair of Romford plain 12mm wheels and 3 x 14mm Romford coach wheels.

 

The bargins are still there, but have to be found

[Scott]

The bargins are still there, but have to be found

 

Have to agree, its all about timing and a bit of luck! I have managed to pick up Airfix mk2D coaches for £5 or less on eBay. At trader stands today at the Cathcart show they were available from £7 to £12. I've also picked up a mint version of 37185 for £16 where it is reguarly available for over £30 in the 2nd hand department of model shops.

[hayfield]

 

Have to agree, its all about timing and a bit of luck! I have managed to pick up Airfix mk2D coaches for £5 or less on eBay. At trader stands today at the Cathcart show they were available from £7 to £12. I've also picked up a mint version of 37185 for £16 where it is reguarly available for over £30 in the 2nd hand department of model shops.

 

 

I tend to keep away from second hand trader stands at shows, I may be plain unlucky but whatever I look at is very expensive. I have seen badly built wagons starting at £5 each, kit built locos in at best average condition starting from £80 normally over a £100. I know little about RTR stock, but the prices they ask for them are astounding. I even blinked at the prices on the Model Railway Clubs stand at Alley Palace. OK the traders have to make a profit and they have costs to cover. But knowing the prices you can buy at on Ebay its a much better place to buy and you get recourse to faulty goods.

 

No wonder some think their models are worth more than they are, perhaps it is the fault of second hand traders putting sky high values on models and joe public thinking they can copy their prices.

 

Auctions do set a value of what something is worth, its just if 2 or more want the same thing sometimes the value is pushed up. Over time items settle down to a market price noprmally lower than you would pay a dealer.

[Colin_McLeod]

 

Auctions do set a value of what something is worth, its just if 2 or more want the same thing sometimes the value is pushed up.

 

It's the price that gets pushed up, not the value.

[coachmann]

When folk say they got a bargain, what did they save...£2.00 on a £5.00 item? £15.00 on a £60.00 item? Wow! Too much aasssing around for my taste, I'd rather throw the money down the drain than leave meself open to some pee-taker. Much simpler to buy the things I actually want off Hattons, Amazon and my regular suppliers and help keep someone who pays rates and taxes in business.

[The Stationmaster]

Auctions do set a value of what something is worth, its just if 2 or more want the same thing sometimes the value is pushed up. Over time items settle down to a market price noprmally lower than you would pay a dealer.

 

As Colin has already said - auctions set a price, not a value. And at the high end that merely indicatse the most which one person out of two is prepared to pay for something, although at the low end the lowest price acceptable by the auctioneer generally indicates where his valuation/pricing level lies (which might not equate with that of 'the market'). The other thing about auctions is that prices can reflect 'fashions' in collectability which is massively different from the intrinsic value of items. Generally judging by what I have seen, and occasionally bought, average r-t-r locos in good condition come out around £20 - £40ish each although some can reach double that or more; I have seen nicely built and painted 4mm kitbuilt locos going for as little as =£15 each (a lot of various LNER types) while quality built and painted 4mm kitbuilt can easily reach the upper hundreds of £s with 7mm going into 4 figures.

 

Judging by some of the stuff seen in the 'Ebay Madness' thread the mark-up by dealers who I know buy at the auction I sometimes attend will vary between an absolute minimum of 50% and several hundred percent (I think the highest I've seen was in excess of 400%). In comparison dealers in some areas of ephemera are only putting on a mark-up of 20-30% albeit with occasional exceptions either way; the 'retail price' of stuff going from auction through antique dealers and 'antique fairs' is often about 30-40% but will occasionally go over 100% or even - very rarely - 200%. The only other everyday area I know of where the general level of mark-up between auction prices and likely/actual retail prices is consistently as high as model railways being sold through Ebay is jewellery but that is more a consequence of the level of auction prices in that area rather than subsequent greed on the part of the auction buyer.

 

Coach is, I think absolutely right (and I've even seen things go in auction for far more than the usual retail price!) plus if you've got the opportunity and the nerve buying at auction can be worthwhile, assuming you've got somewhere to get rid of the stuff you don't want when you buy mixed lots.

[PhilH]

When folk say they got a bargain, what did they save...£2.00 on a £5.00 item? £15.00 on a £60.00 item? Wow! Too much aasssing around for my taste, I'd rather throw the money down the drain than leave meself open to some pee-taker. Much simpler to buy the things I actually want off Hattons, Amazon and my regular suppliers and help keep someone who pays rates and taxes in business.

 

To more than a few people £15 is the difference between being able to afford something or not. Railway modelling should not solely be for the better off.

 

In my experience ebay is the complete opposite of 'aasssing' around, I don't understand how it is more difficult than using any of the suppliers you named.

[lonesome_whistle]

 

To more than a few people £15 is the difference between being able to afford something or not. Railway modelling should not solely be for the better off.

 

In my experience ebay is the complete opposite of 'aasssing' around, I don't understand how it is more difficult than using any of the suppliers you named.

 

I'm not sure anybody said that railway modelling should be just for the better off. However, if one puts a cost on one's time, then the time used to save that £15 could probably have generated more value had it been used differently. If, though, you're sat at work getting paid to surf (as I am now*) then it might be worth the effort.

 

*And, no, I'm not going to tell you the name of my employer..

[Brinkly]

I think it depends on what the item is; I still manage to get some real bargains from ebay. Only last month I managed to get three Bachmann GWR ventilated fruit vans for £4.00 each, with sensible postage rates. Last time Hattons stocked them I think they were in the region of £6.50-£7.00 each. I’ve also been lucky in the past with 57xx bodies; a seller on there last year had a lot with the wrong number, I managed to get four for £4.00 each (I think a large number of RMWebbers got bargains there!). Last week I saw one for £19.99 on there!

 

Having said that the last time I bought a loco off ebay was quite a long time ago as most seem to go for prices that I am not willing to pay. At Scaleforum this year I managed to buy Prairie Tank 5552, which was a limited edition Kernow Model Centre model for £35, which hadn’t even been run. Currently on ebay a ‘professionally weathered’ example is listed at a £49.99.

 

Part of the reason I feel that ebay prices have risen is because the big shop’s prices have risen too. Not so long ago you could purchase a 57xx for £35.00 from Hattons. The same model (different number) now retails for £54.00, so I believe this is another reason why ebay prices have risen. All ebay sellers are doing are copying the trends of the market.

 

Regards,

 

Nick

[coachmann]

Railway modelling should not solely be for the better off.

Talk is cheap. Ebay ain't! All I see is an extention of flea markets where spivs take everything out of the hobby and put nothing in. Pssst, wanna Class 24 'Experiment'?

[PhilH]

Talk is cheap. Ebay ain't! All I see is an extention of flea markets where spivs take everything out of the hobby and put nothing in. Pssst, wanna Class 24 'Experiment'?

 

I suppose that's one opinion. Other opinions are, of course, available.

[Kenton]

I vaguely recall reading something, may have been as long as two or three years ago now that the Inland Revenue were starting to look at how income from on-line auctions and car boot sales etc could be taxed as they have become increasingly aware that many so called 'private' sellers are actually making a substantial living out of this and not paying any income tax or business rates on the proceeds which they would be if they were a business seller.

 

I gather the consensus was that it was virtually unenforceable but the tax man is lurking in the shadows and one day he will pounce...

Not so. There are two areas that are targets for investigation and can reap quite significant rewards in back tax and penalties.

 

The first is the seller who is obviously trading but is not declared as a trader to the revenue. An instant penalty and a whole series of prior year's tax payments and fines. It is fairly easy for the Revenue to obtain details of sales income but very much more difficult for the "trader" to prove purchase price as record keeping will likely to also be in a non-business like state.

 

The second is the declared trader who is off loading items through an ebay guise of being an individual. They are selling items on ebay to avoid paying taxes that they would otherwise pay through their shop. The classic example here would be selling items without charging and declaring VAT through ebay when they would normally pay VAT through the shop - their profits are high enough to have to registered.

 

The latter is much less likely for sales of low ticket / low volume items and so much less likely to come to the Revenue's attention. The former would certainly be one of the many aspects looked at if the individual concerned came up for "random" investigation. This could even be someone who has the majority of their income under PAYE.

 

But as always much of it depends on unusual or suspicious income or activity. Remember that Paypal is a bank and under the same rules so all payments made through Paypal can be traced.

[Catkins]

I've just quickly scanned through this, and I feel that a balance is in order -

Over the past week, I have purchased Two Lima Deltics for £32.00, and that includes P&P - yet I have seen 7 Lima HO mark 2's go for £35.01.

 

I will not buy a new or currently available item from Ebay, but I might use ebay for the unusual or second hand items (until I can start searching on here ) such as the HO scale mark 2's.

I will admit that the prices that some items go for can be eye wateringly steep, but I suspect that part of it is driven by the private "traders".

 

P.S. any one got any Lima HO scale Mark 1's or Mark 2's?

[The Stationmaster]

Prices are a two way thing in any sort of auction, including Ebay. In other words things will only sell for high prices if two 'someones' are prepared to pay those prices and the only way sellers can push up prices on their own is to offer stuff only at a 'Buy It Now' price (which I presume is not permitted?).

[Kenton]

They could put it on with a reserve.

[darren01]

HI

I used to use Feabay a lot in the past for railway stuff, but now even second hand wagons are going for more than i would pay at my local model railway shop.

About 90% of the stuff for sale now is buy it now at over inflated prices , the last thing i did buy was a box van ,and that was over a year ago!.

[John M Upton]

Just took a punt at a Rails of Sheffield Ltd Edn Bachmann 47145 and was astounded to get it earlier today for seventy one notes plus postage!! First real proper bargain I have had for a long time!!

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

just stand clear of any playing those games and wait for the following bus, on that route or elsewhere (like here) everything turns up at a sensible price eventually...

 

This is an incorrect allusion. The bus behind will charge exactly the same price as the one in front. That is because the fares are controlled by the local authority using subsidy ( sometimes ) and bus fares are capped and it is an unwise move to go under that cap unless there is severe competition and the bus operator has done his sums very carefully.

 

EBay is not so regulated and is a free market in microcosm. Private sellers are dwindling away as prices drop for them but they also see these inflated price sales going through. It is always strange how your identical article seems to fetch less even when equally well presented. Yes, there are bargains to be had but they are increasingly difficult to find in amongst the vast bulk listings of the inevitable junk which endlessly re-lists itself.

 

The biggest barrier seems to be the search engine results which require much research using lots of key words plus mis-spells and model numbers to locate the item you are looking for amongst all the other similar items

[Colin_McLeod]

For checking misspellings try http://www.goofbay.com/. Warning: type "Hornby" at your own risk!!

 

 

This site contains other tools including snipe etc. There is a also a forum dedicated to e bay discussions.