Parkside BR Tube Wagon-Loading Information

[46444]

I'm currently in the process of constructing a Parkside BR Tube wagon in the unfitted format.

 

I've made some tubes with flanges from plastic tubing and was wondering how loads were fixed in the wagons on the prototype.

 

Presumably, there were some wooden chocks or a cradle to prevent movement but would they have been bound together? Also would slings have been attatched to the loads to aid lifting?

 

As an aside regarding this kit, I'm expecting it will need compensating and have made allowances for this if necessary, but so far so good. What are other peoples experiences of the running of this wagon.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[Bernard Lamb]

It depends to some extent on the diameter of the tubes. Large gas pipes, I just happen to have seen a photo yesterday, are laid side by side two wide in the wagon sitting on timbers. They have a straw muff round the end as packing to prevent damage to the flange. Smaller tubes would probably be in bundles. I only know these from road transport.

I find compenstaion is an advantage on longer wheel base wagons but others do not find any problem in their running quality when built rigid.

Bernard

[RANGERS]

They were usually in bundles of about 10 - 20 tubes, dependent on the diameter and any specific customer requirement. The base of the wagons would have timber battens laid across and sometimes if the bundles were a reqular shape, further battens would be laid across between bundles. This aided slinging them for unloading as well as helping prevent any transit damage. In some instances, battens could be placed vertically against the sides of the wagon to prevent movement.

 

If the tubes were of a specialist or high quality variety, they batches could sometimes be individuallly wrapped, often the ends of batches would be wrapped in polythene to prevent water ingress. They would generally be sheeted but not always, it was only mandatory for the specialist stuff to be sheeted. This was usually the responsibility of the consignor, in the case of BSC at Corby, the wagons would be sheeted as soon as they'd been loaded in the bay and then the sheeting would be checked by the wagon dispatcher as he was compiling the consist record after the wagons had been passed from BSC to BR.

 

I've never seen it in a tube wagon but very high quality tubes would be laid out individually with battens between each layer and timber blocks or wedges between tubes. This was more common with bolster wagons I believe. These methods date from the 1970s but I doubt it was much different before then, the wagon sheets would have been canvas tarpaulins in earlier days instead of the blue plastic sheets of the latter BR era but the basic principles would have been much the same I guess.

[46444]

Hi Bernard,

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

Yes, I should have mentioned the size of the tubes I have made. These are 6cm long so I can fit 3 abreast and 6 in total, with plenty of room around the sides for access or packing. So may be I need to add some representation of straw packing by the sounds of things.

 

Thanks for the running tips also. I've weighted the wagon with 20g of self adhesive alloy wheel balance weights which keeps it firmly on the track.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[46444]

Hi Rangers,

 

I knew a man from your neck of the woods would know the answers! Guess where my model version of this wagon is coming from?

 

It sounds as if I do need to add some battens across the base of the wagon then as well. Some coffee stirrers may fit the bill here.

 

I thought the loads would be sheeted to protect them so this is an option, but ideally I'd like to leave the load on show. Which leads me to the question as to how tubes where finished? Would they have been untreated, primed or finished? I guess this may have depended on the customers requirements?

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[RANGERS]

Hi Rangers,

 

I knew a man from your neck of the woods would know the answers! Guess where my model version of this wagon is coming from?

 

It sounds as if I do need to add some battens across the base of the wagon then as well. Some coffee stirrers may fit the bill here.

 

I thought the loads would be sheeted to protect them so this is an option, but ideally I'd like to leave the load on show. Which leads me to the question as to how tubes where finished? Would they have been untreated, primed or finished? I guess this may have depended on the customers requirements?

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

 

Technically you're modelling pipes not tubes!

 

I don't know where the distinction between the two came but generally anything above 300mm (12") were classed as pipes, below this were tubes. I can't say too much about pipes other than all the pics I've seen have had them loaded individually, side by side and unbanded.

 

Tubes were usually finished in bare steel unless the customer requested they were treated. Corby could galvanise them but bitumen coatings were appiled elsewhere if required. Apart from galvanising, tubes are rarely finished inside. The sockets are screwed on to threads on one end of the tubes after they're cut to length. This was usually the task of the youngest employees and many Corby employees started their careers here.

[46444]

Thanks again Rangers for clarifying this information.

 

So I've modelled Tubes as opposed to pipes have I? Did Corby make tubes as well as pipes? Just a matter of interest really, because I would like to think this model would have originated in reality from Corby.

 

As you say, I'll finish the tubes/pipes as bare steel either way.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[Webbo]

Mark,

If I remember correctly, (the aging grey matter, or whats left of it don't help), I was told by a bloke who worked at Staveley the difference between a pipe and a tube is:- a pipe is measured on the outside dia and a tube is measured on the inside dia. Again if memory serves correctly most pipes/tubes left there coated. Don't know about Corby though.

Alan

[Bernard Lamb]

 

Technically you're modelling pipes not tubes!

 

I don't know where the distinction between the two came but generally anything above 300mm (12") were classed as pipes, below this were tubes.

 

The Tube in london is larger than 300mm.

Bernard

[Pennine MC]

It sounds as if I do need to add some battens across the base of the wagon then as well. Some coffee stirrers may fit the bill here.

 

 

I'm surprised this hasnt been mentioned, but many, possibly most, Tube wagons had battens permanently fitted to the floor to raise the load up. Pics showing this are not common, I doubt there was a standard pattern/spacing but a minimum of four would make sense, and they'd not be as wide as a coffee stirrer - timber probably 3 or 4 inches square would suffice. I have got a half done wagon somewhere and IIRC I used 40 thou sq. microstrip

[46444]

Thanks Alan and Penine,

 

I'll amend the batons accordingly when I'm next working on the wagon.

 

As for you Bernard-that's a terrible joke!

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[Bernard Lamb]

Sorry.

Bernard

[46444]

Sorry.

Bernard

 

No need for apologies Bernard-your comment was said in good humour.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[billbedford]

In general pipes had flanges, tubes didn't. Pipes were usually cast iron, tubes mild steel, hence pipes were thicker in section. Pipes were usually carried with the flanges at opposite ends of the wagon in alternate rows. It was not permitted to have the widest part of pipes or tubes in the top row of a stack come above the top of the wagon side.

[46444]

Thanks for your reply Bill.

 

Thankfully the pipes I have modelled are a single layer so won't come above the wagon sides.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[RANGERS]

Thanks again Rangers for clarifying this information.

 

So I've modelled Tubes as opposed to pipes have I? Did Corby make tubes as well as pipes? Just a matter of interest really, because I would like to think this model would have originated in reality from Corby.

 

As you say, I'll finish the tubes/pipes as bare steel either way.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

 

I had to consult a higher authority on this one (a now retired crane driver who probably saw the inside of more tube wagons than maybe anyone else!)

 

There is a technical difference between a tube and a pipe, he didn't know what it was but as a rule of thumb, anything up to a foot in diameter was a tube and anything over that was a pipe, simple!

 

Corby only produced up to around 400mm diameter, none of the mills had the capability to roll anything bigger than that and the vast majority of output was up to around 280mm. Depending on the ultimate use, there were four basic types, three welded and one which involved forcing a mandrel through a solid cylindrical ingot to produce a seamless tube, most boiler tubes are made this way, quite a spectacular process but one which is no longer in production at Corby.

 

One of the welded types produced an end flange flush with the overall diameter which when combined with a reduced diameter section on the opposite end, allowed them to be joined end to end, mostly for the oil and gas industry. Size produced was dictated by using varying sizes of rolls in the mill or rolling to a standard size and then stretching the length to reduce the overall diameter. This can be done hot or cold, depends on the ultimate usage.

 

On the subject of loading, up to the sixties, wagons would have been "loose loaded" with batches of tubes bundled together held only by the slings. They would have been seperated with timber battens between them, both horizontally and sometimes vertically as well. 4" x 4" was a rough size of the battens (I remember from pre-central heating days, sawn into 8" lengths it made great firewood as well!) Once steel banding became commonplace, batches would be banded together, depending on the size of tube, up to 25 in a batch would be banded together.

 

He couldn't recall battens being fixed in wagons but most did have a fair amount of timber lying around inside, residue from previous deliveries. It was a no-no to load wagons above the height of the sides but this rule might have been an old fashioned method of ensuring they weren't overloaded. The former timber wagons, (hi-sides as they became known) were loaded in the same way but he seemed to think they were of higher capacity being higher sided. Sheeting was optional, it went on if the load specified it or if the sheets/ manpower were available, in reality a fair amount was sheeted. Bogie bolsters were used for extra long lengths or in the absence of tube wagons, they were unpopular as they took up too much room in the loading bays, reducing the number of wagons which could be loaded at any one time and requiring additional shunting to move them which with no loco permanently attached during loading, took a lot longer and affected production bonuses.

 

Shipping of tubes by rail dwindled through the 80s and all but died out with the demise of Speedlink. Sadly none of the mills at Corby is rail connected now although there is still capacity to load wagons in the slittling plant where the coil trains are received. No one seems to know when the last tubes were shipped by rail but early 1990s seems to be the best guess. All outbound traffic is now by road in curtainsiders, containers and some on flatbed trailers.

[46444]

Rangers,

 

Thanks for this in depth reply-it is much appreciated and now I can load my wagon appropriately.

 

Just measured my pipes I made and these measure out at a scale of just below 400mm so thankfully I'm safe on that count.

 

Packing will be added from appropriate size plasticard and slings probably made from dental floss tape. I'll post some images of the wagon on my blog when it's finished.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[Arthur]

There's no technical distinction between tube and pipe, certainly not by material nor size, though convention has it that larger diameters tend to be referred to as pipe. End use/user will often have their own convention and we talk about water pipe and boiler tube though both might be of steel and the same diameter. Stewarts and Lloyds, long the countries largest steel tube maker, and who acquired the largest cast iron pipe maker, Stantons, in 1939, refer to both pipe and tube for the same product. For example their Vulcan Works at Motherwell made hydraulically welded steel tubes (their description) from 15" up to 72" diameter

Iron pipe has flanges cast in simply because it's easier to cast them in place as a jointing system rather than to try and weld together heavy iron sections on site. Steel pipe is made plain with flanges welded on if needed, but much steel pipe is simply continuously welded on site.

Small diameter wrought iron tube was long ago replaced by cheaper steel tube, either welded or seamless, depending on duty.

Larger diameter pipes could be made of spun iron (Stanton's speciality), cast iron or welded steel from rolled plate.

The main tube and pipe mills in this country were those making steel tube and pipe formerly belonging to the Stewarts & Lloyds Group in Birmingham, several works in Scotland and the largest at Corby.

Large diameter welded steel pipes were also made by South Durham Iron & Steel at Hartlepool, this mill is still operating.

Stanton produced spun iron pipe and Staveley cast iron pipe.

 

Here are some photos, all at Stewarts & Lloyds works.

 

Pipe being loaded in a Tube Wagon for Export

 

 

The following two are at their British Tube Works, Coatbridge.

 

 

 

One at the Corby Despatch Warehouse

 

 

A pug hauls a train for despatch at one of their works

 

 

Arthur

[Webbo]

Arthur.

Fantastic photo's at least it's solved the original question, and now I know how to load my wagon. In reality there is no difference between a pipe and a tube then.

Alan

[Arthur]

Arthur.

In reality there is no difference between a pipe and a tube then.

Alan

 

Correct, people ask what is the difference, usually expecting the answer " tubes are up X" diameter and pipes anything larger" but there is no agreed X so you cannot strictly define one from the other.

 

 

[RANGERS]

Fascinating pictures there, my father started his 44 year career in the steel industry with S&L at The British Tube Works before transferring to Clydesdale Works (he was from Mossend) and thence to Corby in 1949. The Corby warehouse pic could be one of the mill despatch bays, I don't know the warehouse area but most despatch was (and still is) direct from the mills, reducing the need for handling of product and risk of damage. Limited stocks are held to satisfy peaks and troughs in demand for standard product.

 

The clue is in the stacks being at right angles to the rail line, this being in line with the mill process which delivers the finished product in this direction. Loading on to the wagons then requires the load to be turned through 90 degrees into the wagon. I'm not certain but I believe the stacks are parallel with the loading bays in the warehouse, loads coming in are craned off the wagons (road wagons nowadays) and straight into the stacks, the reverse taking place when they're sent out.

 

I'll make further inquiries with folks who'll know better, the pics will interest several folks I know.

[Arthur]

Rangers, I'm sure your dad wasn't alone in moving from Scotland to Corby! S&L encouraged quite an Exodus. I've quite a few S&L images if you are interested though I'll need to scan them. They were one of the steel companies which produced a number of promotional publications over the years.

Arthur

[46444]

Thankyou Arthur for those photographs which must of been taken in the 1930's and 1940's looking at the wagon liveries.

 

They certainly give an indication as not only to loading but the protection given to the finished product. Are those wraps around the pipes/tubes with Stewart and Lloyds made of canvas?

 

I wouls certainly love to see some more photographs if possible.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[billbedford]

Most of the LNER pipe wagons were branded 'Empty to Staveley Works NE' or 'Empty to Stanton Works Ilkeston NE' while the tube wagons were branded 'Empty to Sheepfold Coatbridge'. So from the railway's point of view there was originally a difference between the two traffics.

[RANGERS]

Most of the LNER pipe wagons were branded 'Empty to Staveley Works NE' or 'Empty to Stanton Works Ilkeston NE' while the tube wagons were branded 'Empty to Sheepfold Coatbridge'. So from the railway's point of view there was originally a difference between the two traffics.

 

As the pipe wagons were shorter than the tubes, maybe length of the load was the dictating factor on their ultimate destination. The production methods of the spun pipes produced at Stanton dictated a shorter maximum length of pipe, hence the use of shorter wagons I guess. Many/ most of the LMS and early BR standard tube wagons were branded with Empty to Corby & Weldon where the narrower bore welded and seamless tubes had little or no restriction on their ultimate length, Corby's longest tubes were those used in Operation Pluto which were wound onto drums for shipping, they were each around 500 yards IIRC, quite a length for one wagon!