Heljan Beyer garratt

[Grovenor]

 

and it would be great if some kind RMwebber could show photos of what they have done

They already did, just look back through the topic. There is a choice of chinese motors fron eBay with a link quite early in this topic or Mashimas. Either way the motor is just a push fit but you need to remove the flywheel from the original motor and fit to the new motor shaft, which may involve shortening the shaft, and unsolder the motor wires from the old motor and resolder to the new.

Regards

[Downendian]

Thanks I did spend an hour or so reading through this thread, the only photos I recall were of the motor replacements. I'll take another look.

Neil

[JSpencer]

They already did, just look back through the topic. There is a choice of chinese motors fron eBay with a link quite early in this topic or Mashimas. Either way the motor is just a push fit but you need to remove the flywheel from the original motor and fit to the new motor shaft, which may involve shortening the shaft, and unsolder the motor wires from the old motor and resolder to the new.

Regards

And when you re solder the wires, make sure you them the right way round. Otherwise you will end up with a push-me pull-you!

[Downendian]

Sleepless night.

I spent a little time going through the thread to compile a list of photos of the remotoring projects for those contemplating the task, as I am. If I've missed anything please PM me with a link to the post.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/42598-Heljan-beyer-garratt/?p=2242674

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/42598-Heljan-beyer-garratt/?p=2265720

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/42598-Heljan-beyer-garratt/?p=2264948

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/42598-Heljan-beyer-garratt/?p=2298150

 

Neil

[adb968008]

Everyone seems frustrated... they want working garratts not legal Garrottings.

 

Given the issues I doubt any more garratts will be forthcoming, and everyone seems to want it, not wants to return it.

 

If you take out the legal, take out the politics then your left with a business opportunity...

 

If some sets up a remotoring / fitting service and offers this directly, or via a channel, Or the wider trade, then it sounds like there would be quite a few takers, and everyone wins ?

 

What's needed, a bulk alibaba order for 1000 or so motors at a few pennies and someone with the nounce to do it ?

If the problem is serious, then a show of hands (or motors) is needed to identify the scale of demand and an idea of how much people will be prepared to pay ?, given that a working one will appreciate considerably in value from the £200 initial investment to buy it, and a "standardised" solution to fixing it would be recognised in the future this may be a way to make everyone happy ?

Edited October 1, 2016 by adb968008

[Free At Last]

I am sure Hattons will be glad to take them back and refund the £199.00. They can then sell them on for more as like this one http://www.hattons.co.uk/224279/Heljan_266210_SAS_Beyer_Garratt_2_6_0_0_6_2_47971_BR_Lion_on_wheel_emblems_on_cabsides_block_styl/StockDetail.aspx

 "sold as seen - handrail on engine loose - front buffers missing - inconsistent runner, difficulty over points" for £230.00.

[jjb1970]

I am sure Hattons will be glad to take them back and refund the £199.00. They can then sell them on for more as like this one http://www.hattons.co.uk/224279/Heljan_266210_SAS_Beyer_Garratt_2_6_0_0_6_2_47971_BR_Lion_on_wheel_emblems_on_cabsides_block_styl/StockDetail.aspx

"sold as seen - handrail on engine loose - front buffers missing - inconsistent runner, difficulty over points" for £230.00.

I have no issue with that. If a retailer provides an honest description and sells something on the basis it is junk as advertised then the buyer knows what they're getting. I've put stuff on EBay where I've described various faults and been surprised by how easy it was to sell and the prices paid. However a new model should work out of the box.

[amdaley]

I am sure Hattons will be glad to take them back and refund the £199.00. They can then sell them on for more as like this one http://www.hattons.co.uk/224279/Heljan_266210_SAS_Beyer_Garratt_2_6_0_0_6_2_47971_BR_Lion_on_wheel_emblems_on_cabsides_block_styl/StockDetail.aspx

 "sold as seen - handrail on engine loose - front buffers missing - inconsistent runner, difficulty over points" for £230.00.

 

I've got no problem with any retailer making a killing from a model but the fact that the very same retailer was the one who sold such a poorly engineered model in the first place leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Many people bought this model thinking they were buying a quality product only to be let down by both the manufacturer & the retailer.

 

Yes they could get a refund but I'm sure people don't buy something just so they can get their money back.

Ultimately it was Hattons who were responsible & to top it all they try & sell some piece of junk that they had left over from the whole sorry mess for a healthy profit.

Shameful profiteering I call it.

To me this is just taking the mick & adds insult to injury 

[royaloak]

But then however you get a post such as 2211 which in effect undermines the complaints made with depressing frequency on this subject.There are those who it seems do not mind being presented with a product which isn't fit for purpose and who make a virtue out of putting it into working order and who disingenuously declare it's not Hattons fault and that they should not be held to account.

For some its called modelling or fault finding or just a curious fascination.

 

I have bought new models from Hornby, Bachmann etc etc which have had faults, I could have gone down the route of returning them and waiting for them to be fixed and returned or a refund offered but I chose the quicker and more fun get it apart and have a look routine, all of them I managed to fix by myself saving me the time and effort of traipsing off to the shop/post office.

 

Okay if I had bought one of these Garratts then it could have gone back or I might have decided to go down the re-motoring route, that would be my choice and I cant say which route I would have chosen but it would probably have been the re-motor route. 

Should I be put in that position, no of course not, but it is what it is and people will make up their own minds which route to take depending on their abilities or requirements, it is after all a free Country.

Edited October 1, 2016 by royaloak

[Re6/6]

One member in DRAG has tried tried unsuccessfully to convert his to 'P4' using the 'EM' conversion method published in the sadly now defunct 'Finescale Modelling Revue'. It could be that his particular one is particularly well glued together. Having to cut and 'micro-saw' the hard glued joints doesn't come easy to do to an relatively expensive but lovely model.

 

I reckon after I try using the same method with mine and probably failing l fancy the best method would be to build two new chassis (two Comet LCP 4 Fowler/Stanier 2-6-4T

cut down, but maybe the Ivatt 2-6-2T cut down might also do but haven't checked yet ) with new Mashima motors and somebody's gearboxes. I have the Ultrascales waiting!

 

BTW copies of the second part of the 'Revue' if anybody wanted one, may still be available from 'Titfield Thunderbolt' in Bath.

Connection declared as l know the proprietor very well!

Edited October 1, 2016 by Re6/6

[jjb1970]

If the problem is serious, then a show of hands (or motors) is needed to identify the scale of demand and an idea of how much people will be prepared to pay ?, given that a working one will appreciate considerably in value from the £200 initial investment to buy it, and a "standardised" solution to fixing it would be recognised in the future this may be a way to make everyone happy ?

Probably more happier than happy. Not sure many will actually be happy about buying a model then paying more money to make it work.

 

I'm a bit disappointed with the apparent lack of any willingness on the part of Heljan to offer a fix. Legally under UK consumer law this is not their immediate problem as it is the retailer who is liable. However, it is Heljan whose reputation has been damaged by all of this and other manufacturers have supported product even where they may not have had a direct legal obligation to do so as part of their commitment to customer care. Heljan may be doing nothing wrong here from a legal perspective, from a customer perspective I do think it has damaged their brand.

[John Isherwood]

Probably more happier than happy. Not sure many will actually be happy about buying a model then paying more money to make it work.

 

I'm a bit disappointed with the apparent lack of any willingness on the part of Heljan to offer a fix. Legally under UK consumer law this is not their immediate problem as it is the retailer who is liable. However, it is Heljan whose reputation has been damaged by all of this and other manufacturers have supported product even where they may not have had a direct legal obligation to do so as part of their commitment to customer care. Heljan may be doing nothing wrong here from a legal perspective, from a customer perspective I do think it has damaged their brand.

 

But if they announce tomorrow one of your 'must have' prototypes, would you buy one?

 

I know I would, and so would most other modellers.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited October 1, 2016 by cctransuk

[jjb1970]

But if they announce tomorrow one of your 'must have' prototypes, would you buy one?

 

I know I would, and so would most other modellers.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Must have - yes. Something that I'd like but was not really must have or which I thought would be made by somebody else (most models) - I'm not sure, this would influence my decision.

[micklner]

But if they announce tomorrow one of your 'must have' prototypes, would you buy one?

 

I know I would, and so would most other modellers.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

That somes up the problem nicely.

 

Offer for sale shoddy goods (of any type not just Model railways) and then some people are still daft (or whatever description you want to call them) and still buy one knowing its basically not fit for purpose (junk) .

 

Until some peoples attitude changed why would any maker bother upgrading the quality of his product, it costs him money and he knows he will still sell the product anyway.

 

As to Hattons on that listing above ,they cant even get which end  the missing buffers are on the Loco , total joke.

Edited October 3, 2016 by micklner

[John Isherwood]

That somes up the problem nicely.

 

Offer for sale shoddy goods (of any type not just Model railways) and then some people are still daft (or whatever description you want to call them) and still buy one knowing its basically not fit for purpose (junk) .

 

Until some peoples attitude changed why would any maker bother upgrading the quality of his product, it costs him money and he knows he will still sell the product anyway.

 

As to Hattons on that listing above ,they cant even which end  the missing buffers are onthe Loco , total joke.

 

.... or we are just being pragmatic, knowing that there is little likelihood of a better option emerging in the foreseeable future.

 

Many modellers take the risk, knowing full well that any remedial works will be simpler, and probably cheaper, than building the equivalent kit.

 

I see RTR as a shortcut to a desired model, and if a little genuine modelling is required to bring the model up to my standards, then so be it.

 

I'm certain that today's models could be made absolutely perfect - at a price; but then we'd be back in that other thread, which bemoans the outrageous prices charged for models.

 

Pragmatism reigns OK !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited October 1, 2016 by cctransuk

[jjb1970]

.... or we are just being pragmatic, knowing that there is little likelihood of a better option emerging in the foreseeable future.

 

Many modellers take the risk, knowing full well that any remedial works will be simpler, and probably cheaper, than building the equivalent kit.

 

I see RTR as a shortcut to a desired model, and if a little genuine modelling is required to bring the model up to my standards, then so be it.

 

I'm certain that today's models could be made absolutely perfect - at a price; but then we'd be back in that other thread, which bemoans the outrageous prices charged for models.

 

Pragmatism reigns OK !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

In terms of fidelity to prototype I think that is true, however there is no excuse for a model to not work. Supplying a model which will not work is completely different to pragmatic compromises in terms of detailing.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...Not sure many will actually be happy about buying a model then paying more money to make it work...

 

 You have put your finger right on the main difficulty in any 'third party' remediation, assuming that somebody had a viable method in cost and fix time to make it a practical commercial offering. Starting with a customer group who enter the process already feeling more or less 'burned'. No thanks, that's the road to a world of pain.

 

... Heljan may be doing nothing wrong here from a legal perspective, from a customer perspective I do think it has damaged their brand.

 Heljan have done nothing wrong, nor have Hattons; and the responsibility toward the customer is exclusively Hattons.

 

Damage to Heljan's brand? Vanishingly small in my perception. I and others have gone right out and purchased the first UK steam subject they have released on their own account and it has generally gone over OK I think. Then there's folks frothing gently over some of the other announced steam product to come from Heljan. All the earlier Heljan diesel models I have direct experience of have been good too, there or thereabouts ranking with the better products from Bach and Hornby. Every OO RTR manufacturer with any sort of range has 'tripped up' within recent memory, and we are still buying...

[micklner]

 You have put your finger right on the main difficulty in any 'third party' remediation, assuming that somebody had a viable method in cost and fix time to make it a practical commercial offering. Starting with a customer group who enter the process already feeling more or less 'burned'. No thanks, that's the road to a world of pain.

 

 Heljan have done nothing wrong, nor have Hattons; and the responsibility toward the customer is exclusively Hattons.

 

Damage to Heljan's brand? Vanishingly small in my perception. I and others have gone right out and purchased the first UK steam subject they have released on their own account and it has generally gone over OK I think. Then there's folks frothing gently over some of the other announced steam product to come from Heljan. All the earlier Heljan diesel models I have direct experience of have been good too, there or thereabouts ranking with the better products from Bach and Hornby. Every OO RTR manufacturer with any sort of range has 'tripped up' within recent memory, and we are still buying...

 

You need to read the O2 thread as to build and design quality etc etc . The Class 14 motor burn outs are another example of the "quality" of their products.

[adb968008]

none of this is going to change anything, with regards the garratt, sooner we get past the denial stage and reach acceptance, the sooner a solution can be found.

 

bottom line, if Heljan re-engineered the garratt, and reissued it at 2017/8/9 prices... its going to be a £400+ model, or a reissue as is, more warts and all, will be at least £300.

when first released, everyone lauded what a bargain it was @£200.

 

what we have is what we have, return it, sell it or keep it.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I have read the O2  thread, last update 2 Sept. Not a lot going on. Gave my example a thorough pounding immediately it arrived, since there was something of a question mark over motor reliability raised by the Garratt, and it is well out of the 'infant mortality' zone for the motor now. Not saying it is perfect, it isn't. But as a model of a class that I can use, it's more than OK, and I am up for the O2/1 and O2/2. I'll give them a thorough work out on receipt too, and if they fail back they will go to the retailer. That's how the customer drives quality into a product, send it back when it fails.

[Ian Hargrave]

You need to read the O2 thread as to build and design quality etc etc . The Class 14 motor burn outs are another example of the "quality" of their products.

I think you will find that he has in fact contributed significantly to that thread IIRC.The 02 has had a mixed press and got off to a bad start.Speaking from personal experience ( never a good idea,it seems! ) of running two of them,they are excellent models with which to date I have had no difficulties.Their performance and haulage capability are superb.

 

Heljan are still dogged by the notoriety of the Claytons .As a matter of fact,they also make damned good models.True they have their moments ( chiefly in O gauge it seems ) but then consider if you will the little gem they produced in the Metro electric recently and to dismiss them out of hand is grossly unfair.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Ian Hargrave

[Ian Hargrave]

none of this is going to change anything, with regards the garratt, sooner we get past the denial stage and reach acceptance, the sooner a solution can be found.

 

bottom line, if Heljan re-engineered the garratt, and reissued it at 2017/8/9 prices... its going to be a £400+ model, or a reissue as is, more warts and all, will be at least £300.

when first released, everyone lauded what a bargain it was @£200.

 

what we have is what we have, return it, sell it or keep it.

Well done.....your key words and phrases being " in denial. " and " acceptance ".We already are on the £400 mark in any case with Bachmann's re released Midland Pullman.

[trw1089]

Well Ian I'm glad you O2 works because mine is a dog and how any manufacturer could come up with an interpretation of Walschaerts valve gear like Heljan did has got me stumped in this day and age, and that's when it doesn't just fall apart. But, I'm prepared to do what is necessary to get the loco running to my satisfaction . I have a running Garratt and I'm also prepared to work on it to keep it running as that's what modelling is all about, well for me. You and the others on this thread who gnash there teeth about posters like me somehow compromising your case for better quality is a fallacy. Manufacturers will be guided by one thing, sales. So you buying an O2 after having so many problems with the Garratt is far more compromising than a modeller who takes what they can get and is prepared to have a go.

 

You also mentioned the Blue Pullman, which when delivered from the manufacturer had wheel sets on the motor bogie more than 1.5mm out of gauge, and a power car that did not run. Did I return it or gnash my teeth about how terrible it all was? No, I disassembled it, fixed the problems and now it runs sweetly as ever. That's called modelling.

 

Tony

[Theakerr]

I watched the October issue of Thats Neat with Ken Patterson last night.  He was at a US modellers convention in St Louis and one of the comments made about a certain brand of loco was to the effect that 'It'd nice to get a loco that actually runs out of the box and does not require fixing'.  The comment struck home reminding me of this and other threads.  Perhaps it is a bigger and more common problem than we believe.

[jjb1970]

Maybe I'm lucky but almost all of my RTR models have worked perfectly well out of the box. Regardless of whether it is a Railroad model or high end full fat main range model there is no excuse for the model not being fit for purpose. If a handrail comes off in transit then fair enough I'll stick it back on, but if the mechanism is a dud or whatever then I'd just ask for an exchange or a refund.