HSE jobsworths

[Stormbringer]

I had about 18 months ago a you lady in a Honda Civic type S clip the front of my truck at about 1am. No one was hurt, we exchanged details and went on our way. Within a week I'd had 2 calls from the vultures wanting to know if I wanted to claim, one of which was at 10am. Bearing in mind that I was on nights at the time this didn't go down too well.

 

With regard to HSE (Has Sense Escaped????) we had at the time to put "Adblue" (a urea and water mix [76% water i think] ) in our trucks, the company HSE bod decreed that we had to wear rubber apron, gloves and goggles just to pump it into the tank on the truck.

 

Pete

[meil]

With regard to HSE (Has Sense Escaped????) we had at the time to put "Adblue" (a urea and water mix [76% water i think] ) in our trucks, the company HSE bod decreed that we had to wear rubber apron, gloves and goggles just to pump it into the tank on the truck.

 

Pete

 

 

Did you ask him if he wore the same get-up when he pumped his own personal "Adblue" down the toilet? Or was he just taking the P**s?

[Harbottle]

If you want to see the 'stupid gene' in action just watch World's Craziest Fools on Sky 1. Some of these people are terminally stupid. I especially enjoy seeing skateboarders landing legs-akimbo on a fence or wall. Ouch!

Earlier this year I stopped at a pedestrian crossing when the lights changed. A teenager started to cross as soon as he saw the light turn green for him. He was listening to his iPod and was totally engrossed in his mobile 'phone. What he was totally oblivious to was the cop car approaching the crossing at considerable speed with it's 'blues and twos' on. I gave him a toot on my horn and when he stopped and looked at me I pointed up the road to indicate that he should take a look the other way. He did so just as the cop car shot past him. Do these electronic devices carry warnings that the user should occasionally look and check out what's happening around them?

[Fat Controller]

Was this a staged crash so he can get a nice fat cheque for doing your case. There was a program about people doing this and getting £3000 I think for whip lash.

I suspect not- he dealt with cases for the NUM. There have been instances of staged crashes which have resulted in prosecution- one large-scale scam in Manchester was initially discovered by local office workers, who noticed the same driver having rear-end shunts outside their office several times a day in different cars.

[stewartingram]

I work for a contractor on the Underground, maintaining comms equipment. One day I got a call to the Baker Street offices, above the station, where a radio was faulty. To cut a long story short, when I went into the room where the radio was, I touched a live wire inside the cabinet, receiving a mild shock off the 240v supply. Now before we get diverted, I'm a competent engineer with common sense, working inside a cabinet where I should have been, etc etc. Normally I would have carried on, but then thought, "this is the Underground, I have to play 110% by the rules", and duly reported to my (remote) manager who initiated the whole reporting process. To LU's credit, it was efficient, & the room was quarantined immediately pending investigation.

My manager turned up pretty quick and insisted on taking me to the local A&E hospital for a checkup though I felt fine. Personally, I felt it all was OTT but went along with it.

Anyway, the point is, what happenned at the hospital. I was booked in, and put on a casualty bed, where heartbeat checks etc were done. All was fine. I was then taken to be interviewed by a doctor. I think her attitude was atrocious, and follows the thinking of no-win no-fee that we are discussing. Upon entering her office, she very nicely introduced herself, & reading from my case notes started to ask questions, all good & proper so far, checking that I felt ok etc. She then said "of course, you will be making a claim?" as she went over to her filing cabinet to fetch some forms to fill in. Basically I said "no, I'm from the old school, I don't do things like that" or something very similar, & laughing it off. At this point her attitude became very stern, almost arrogant, dissapointed that I wasn't pursueing a claim, and I felt I was virtually pushed out of the room as the interview was quickly terminated. I do wonder if she was getting a backhander for referrals?

Incidentally, the reason I got a shock was that an insulating sleeve on the inside of the radio cabinet wasn't pushed over the mains terminals properly. And this was a radio that technically belonged to us, being leased to LU, so really our firm was responsible, though it was new and had been made in the factory like that.

Stewart

[leopardml2341]

But.....................

 

How many people would be of strong enough character to actually stand up and say (of their own actions) 'It was my fault' rather than trying to blame someone else and thus shirk their responsibilities to both themselves and others?

 

Contoversial? Maybe.

 

Edit - inability to spell ''controversial"

Edited July 3, 2011 by leopardml2341

[Baby Deltic]

I work for a contractor on the Underground, maintaining comms equipment. One day I got a call to the Baker Street offices, above the station, where a radio was faulty. To cut a long story short, when I went into the room where the radio was, I touched a live wire inside the cabinet, receiving a mild shock off the 240v supply. Now before we get diverted, I'm a competent engineer with common sense, working inside a cabinet where I should have been, etc etc. Normally I would have carried on, but then thought, "this is the Underground, I have to play 110% by the rules", and duly reported to my (remote) manager who initiated the whole reporting process. To LU's credit, it was efficient, & the room was quarantined immediately pending investigation.

My manager turned up pretty quick and insisted on taking me to the local A&E hospital for a checkup though I felt fine. Personally, I felt it all was OTT but went along with it.

Anyway, the point is, what happenned at the hospital. I was booked in, and put on a casualty bed, where heartbeat checks etc were done. All was fine. I was then taken to be interviewed by a doctor. I think her attitude was atrocious, and follows the thinking of no-win no-fee that we are discussing. Upon entering her office, she very nicely introduced herself, & reading from my case notes started to ask questions, all good & proper so far, checking that I felt ok etc. She then said "of course, you will be making a claim?" as she went over to her filing cabinet to fetch some forms to fill in. Basically I said "no, I'm from the old school, I don't do things like that" or something very similar, & laughing it off. At this point her attitude became very stern, almost arrogant, dissapointed that I wasn't pursueing a claim, and I felt I was virtually pushed out of the room as the interview was quickly terminated. I do wonder if she was getting a backhander for referrals?

Incidentally, the reason I got a shock was that an insulating sleeve on the inside of the radio cabinet wasn't pushed over the mains terminals properly. And this was a radio that technically belonged to us, being leased to LU, so really our firm was responsible, though it was new and had been made in the factory like that.

Stewart

 

I've had a few belts in my time from various machines. The last one was when I touched two sepparate machines simultaniously and got 240V right across my heart. I found that the earth wire in one of the mains plugs had corroded, and, due to the fact the machines had switched mode PSU's which reference ground, I got a handfull of volts. I had to report it and fill out all the forms, rest, etc.

[Pacific231G]

But.....................

 

How many people would be of strong enough character to actually stand up and say (of their own actions) 'It was my fault' rather than trying to blame someone else and thus shirk their responsibilities to both themselves and others?

 

Controversial? Maybe.

 

 

But but, how many people would be strong enough to stand up - especially to their boss - and say "this practice is dangerous, we shouldn't be doing this."

 

I thought the lady from the HSE's "Our job is to stop people being killed and injured at work" was entirely sensible and she clearly sees the dangers of a tick box compliance rather than sensible hazard assessment culture.

In my own industry all producers and directors had to have H&S training after a member of the public Michael Lush died on the Late Late Breakfast Show during a stunt in 1986. It was actually quite shocking to realise just how cavalier we'd all tended to be before then about safety and anyone who did query it was generally dismissed as a wimp. Nowadays I fill in a hazard assessment form everytime I go filming and they do make me think about potential hazards- not all of them obvious- though I'll guarantee that's not universally done.

Other industries were even worse.

Before going to Uni in 1970 I worked for a while in ships' engine rooms. We had no hard hats nor safety shoes despite a lot of overhead work, no hearing protection despite noise levels of about 110dB in some areas and the electrical distribution panel had open bus bars with just a single wooden railing as a barrier (think ship, pitching around in heavy seas, water, exposed terminals ..shudder) and just as a bonus we had machine tools in the workshop powered by open belts.

 

David

[coachmann]

Before going to Uni in 1970 I worked for a while in ships' engine rooms. We had no hard hats nor safety shoes despite a lot of overhead work, no hearing protection despite noise levels of about 110dB in some areas.....

Same in Pilkington Glass works plus renite sprays, oppressive heat, molten glass, asbestos coveyors and what-not. I've also worked as a bus guard on open platforms with nothing to stop me and the clientel falling off, steam locos shovelling coal forward on the tender while my mate blew the whistle to duck every few minutes...and so on. No doubt older members have stories to tell of working in the mine and shipyard, fire-fighting during the blitz, heroism beyond the call of duty and fighting the Japanese and Germans etc. But men were men.

[Pacific231G]

No doubt older members have stories to tell of working in the mine and shipyard, fire-fighting during the blitz, heroism beyond the call of duty and fighting the Japanese and Germans etc. But men were men.

 

And employers could kill and injure them with impunity. It's always amused me when they announce on the cross channel ferry that "this vessel meets all the latest safety standards". Well yes, it would be illegal for it to leave the berth if it didn't.

[Guest Max Stafford]

My organisation is very H&S conscious and enforces the rule that every single internal door in our office must be kept shut at all times, but it's quite happy to have a man work on his own for a whole evening or night shift with the nearest colleague 100 miles away as it's been deemed a manageable risk...

 

That's when you know you're a resource with no more value to them than a computer or a pair of boots.

 

If the wheel truly does come right off one night though it will cost them very, very dearly...

 

Dave.

[Guest Natalie Graham]

Surely there is no need for all these H&S regulations. As long as people are wearing a high vis. vest and a hard hat they will be immune from any danger.

 

There was a programme on the telly recently looking at industry in the past and one modern day employee, shown a film about a steelworks in the 70's, where men were manhandling giant ladles of molten steel and doing other, similar activites, was appalled by the scene he had witnessed. 'No-one was wearing high vis. vests or hard-hats' he complained with incredulity in his voice. The actual hazardous nature of what these men were doing seemed to be beyond his ability to comprehend.

[petethemole]

Hi-vis is compulsory on the vast majority of construction sites, only some small firms work on the 'as required' principle, where you wear it when vehicles or plant are moving. It makes sense though that people aren't in a position to not wear it. However, a site manager from a major nationally known construction company at a large spread-out site told me "it's not for safety, it's so we can see where people are". Being more visible doesn't make you safe from a careless plant operator or truck driver. I once had a narrow escape from a tipper driver working without a banksman and my boss recently had his arm broken when hit by a slewing digger bucket; the driver "couldn't see him" although they'd been machining all morning. H&S in the workplace law is a godsend in the construction industry and its fringes, like archaeology. Some of our working practices in the 70s were downright dangerous, and people got hurt.

Pete

[The Stationmaster]

The whole safety thing is a matter of balance but regrettably due to fear of the compensation culture there is an awful lot of imbalance. Similarly where you get a crossover between different approaches to safety you can end up with overkill - a site I was on earlier this year required you to wear steel toecap/insole boots, a helmet, safety specs, gloves, and a full orange overall in just about every outside area you cared to name even if you were just walking though it and a permanent way gang was expected to work in that level of protective clothing notwithstanding that any line they were within 9 feet of was very securely, and literally, locked closed against the faintest possibility of a train moving on it. Meanwhile elsewhere on another site we were advising the client against the wearing of safety helmets by shunters because of the dangers they created (which outweighed any safety advantage they might offer). The simple situation is of course that one size does not fit all and what is right in one place is overkill, or underkill, in another. And the biggest problem is that - increasingly it seems - people who have no experience or understanding are becoming involved in setting safety standards and creating the detail which often has teh opposite effect by bringing the whole idea of 'safe working' into disrepute.

 

As far as high vis clothing in a rail environment is concerned it has led to a sense of false security among some people and my training mantra for many years has been that the main thing a high-vis vest does is help the Driver of a train see you before his train hits you - with the potential advantage that he might have time to sound a warning.

[James]

I've seen a good few people who seem to think that Hi-Vis is some kind of force field which protects them!

 

I actually for those working on track (by working, I actually mean maintaining and working upon the infrastructure) the all orange rule works as even if you're bent over, crouching a driver is more likely to see some part of you and give you a warning. But for much of the time, and this covers red zone really, most people will have look out protection. One guy I worked with has always preferred all orange if he was going out IWA to give him self that bit of extra visability.

 

But helmets... There are so many times when they're a bloody nuisance! If you work with p-way they often fall off - I'll admit one shift when tjree of us were out cant painting we actually didn't bother with helmets. Constantly bending down and having them fall in paint wasn't ideal. Somehow I don't think putting nasty paint on your head after recovering it would be a good idea! However a daytime Tiii on a single track, freight only branch it was probably quite safe. And all this at the suggestion of the ES/Coss who was in charge!

[Guest Natalie Graham]

On the subject of helmets, where I live is a popular spot for universities to bring their new geology students as they can obtain nearly all the rock samples they need for their courses. Every Easter we get groups of students wearing their obligatory hard hats as they walk along the beach, among the holidaymakers, looking for their rocks. Quite what they are supposed to protect them from I have yet to work out, unless it's seagul droppings.

[Brinkly]

common sense (here we go again) would dictate that it would be better to wait and/or choose a safer method.

 

The one thing that bugs me more than anything else is the 'Caution, hot water' above sinks in public lavatories, well what do you bl**dly expect from a hot tap!? Spitfire ale?! Fair enough, wet floor sign, no problem with that, or 'duck' low beam, but caution hot water and normally it isn't even that hot, not compared to the temperature of the average woman's bath! (Stick your feet in and come back out within a split second with third degree burns!)

 

Completely stupid, the world has gone mad!

 

Regards,

 

Nick.

[coachmann]

However, a site manager from a major nationally known construction company at a large spread-out site told me "it's not for safety, it's so we can see where people are".

I can believe this. Now why would bus drivers in some companies wear high viz vests. Right, its so we know they are at the front of the bus. Buses running all day with headlights on too. Mmmm, must be Volvo's...

[James]

Buses running all day with headlights on too. Mmmm, must be Volvo's...

A number of IAM observers I've met actually recommend the use of headlights during the day.

[PhilJ W]

A number of IAM observers I've met actually recommend the use of headlights during the day.

Dipped headlights that is.

[Guest Max Stafford]

I rue the day my organisation discovered fluorescent yellow. OK I understand the need for it on traffic duties and football days, but the oft-mentioned excuse is 'to make you more visible'.

I thought we had big, pointy hats for that purpose...

 

Dave.

[James]

Dipped headlights that is.

I assumed people could work that out!

[PhilJ W]

I assumed people could work that out!

A lot of motorcyclists do not. (But this takes us into the grumpies thread territory.)

[RedgateModels]

Risk is a balance of likelihood and consequence, if the likelihood is 1/5 but the consequence is 5/5 the overall risk is 5/25... Negligible!

 

What some so called professionals fail to do is as you describe. Miss the final step - the sanity check and you get silly controls that mean conkers are banned etc.

 

We ran a course at work and one manager candidate was instant that we should include death as a consequence. They then went on to come up with an assessment that we would kill someone within a year. They could not see that their likelihood was way too possible. When questioned they admitted that we have NEVER killed anyone in 5 odd years of operation on the infrastructure or over the last 10 years that we have been maintaining machines.

 

Here's another good one:

 

a group of three employees are having a meeting in a room at a hotel that includes tea making facilities. This includes a kettle for boiling water - a hazard, yes.

 

Now how about control measures? - you've thought of using PPE, training, a tray to catch spills etc etc - now .....

 

Lock the meeting room door.

 

How can this control the risk? - you've reduced the number of people that can be exposed to the hazard to only three people - no members of the public or hotel staff can now get in. B)

[James]

We ran a course at work and one manager candidate was instant that we should include death as a consequence. They then went on to come up with an assessment that we would kill someone within a year. They could not see that their likelihood was way too possible. When questioned they admitted that we have NEVER killed anyone in 5 odd years of operation on the infrastructure or over the last 10 years that we have been maintaining machines.

At my previous employer we had one manager tell us that our 'target' across the business was 1.2 deaths a year!

 

He was quickly reminded our target was zero!