Bloodnok Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Okay, fresh from the 'wish list' style thread where Mk2 e/f were mentioned, and wanting a bunch of Air Con Mk2s myself (but not expecting a manufacturer to actually make a new set until I've sorted myself out with a rake by some other method, in accordance with the usual laws of Murphy), I've been off hunting. I've found references to Air Con Mk2 coaches by Airfix, Dapol, Mainline, Hornby and Lima. As far as I can tell, the current Hornby model is a Mk2D, and was inherited from Dapol, who in turn got it from Airfix - and despite it's age, it appears to be regarded as a reasonable RTR model. The Lima model of a Mk2F is criticized for being under-length by half a centimetre or so. I've not heard much about the Mainline model (assuming that the reference I picked up on isn't in error) - what is this model? The Hornby ones are "still available" for definitions of "available" that include an FO in Blue/Grey (R4215A) and a BSO (R4240) in FGW 'Fag Packet' livery on the Hornby website. Not a great range to choose from, but on the grounds that retailers may still have other stock, semi-promising. The others are obviously out of production, but may well turn up from time to time. The question is, what's worth looking out for, and what isn't? What are the caveats? If possible the plan would be to build a complete rake, in either Blue/Grey, InterCity, or even a mixture. If that looks difficult, then I may settle for individual Blue/Grey vehicles in a rake of earlier Mk2 / Mk2a - current Bachmann model. I already have several of these... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted November 24, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 24, 2009 James, Mainline was the same as Airfix, I can't remember which one came first. Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodnok Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 James, Mainline was the same as Airfix, I can't remember which one came first. So that mould really is a "pass-the-parcel" model then? Just the four owners so far... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
forest2807 Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 I don't know the correct dimemsions, and I don't own a Lima model to make any comparisons, but to me the Lima coach doesn't quite look right. To my eyes the bogies are fractionally too far towards the outer ends, the overhang at each end isn't long enough. Is that just me? I have several Airfix/Dapol Mk2d's in both blue and grey and inter-city livery. To me they are pretty good models considering that they can trace their origins back to the 1970's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragtag Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 I picked up some of the Airfix ones recently at a show and am quite satisfied with them. They now look the part in Network Rail yellow. The Lima coaches never looked quite right to me. When compared to the Airfix models the Lima bodies are noticably higher (although the loading gauge is the same, they extend further towards the track). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 James, Mainline was the same as Airfix, I can't remember which one came first. Andi Airfix to Mainline to Dapol to Hornby Three shells were available in that range, a TSO, an FO and a BSO Lima didn't do a brake, just an FO and a TSO The Lima ones also suffered from the usual Lima issue of glazing that was about half a mile back from where the window should be, whilst the glazing on the AirMainDapBy models isn't perfect by a long chalk they are much more convincing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Road Stone Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 I have 9 of the Mk2d Dapol type and they are my favourite despite the more detailed models since their introduction. They just look so good behind a 47 for example. I understand they were quite highly regarded when they came out and still are in some circles The best bit part of a pic of one I have! Cheers, Jerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 As already mentioned the original Airfix product was produced as a Mk2D. Stones air conditioning with two small fans together on the chassis and the toilets on the FO and TSO on the same side at opposite ends. BSOs and FOs were made first and can still be easily found, the TSO was released by Airfix under GMR (Great Model Railways) and not too many were made before Airfix went under. Mainline produced loads of TSOs (come to think of it I've never seen a Mainline FO or BSO); Hattons were selling the TSOs off at ??11.50 in 1998 so I picked up about ten. All these coaches are the correct length with reasonably flush tinted windows (Hornby's aren't tinted). Lima made a Mk2F with Temperature Ltd air conditioning (one large fan on the chassis and no middle box on the other side). The toilet windows were correct that the FO had the toilets on the same side and the TSO had them always towards the right hand end. The main problem is these coaches are like the Mk2B in that they are about 2.5 - 3 mm to short (plus the heavily recessed window glazing). This doesn't appear to be a problem until you try to put an Airfix chassis under a Lima body to make a Mk2E. Personally I like the old Airfix moulds. Some people have said that they are a bit long in the tooth but given a decent coat of paint with good quality transfers on the sides and especially the ends I feel that they are just as good as current models. The Airfix and Mainline bogies have plastic wheels, the Dapol raspberry ripple stock appear to have shorter axles which can cause derailments but the Hornby wheels and axles are fine. FOs and BSOs are regularly on ebay. The TSOs are getting harder to find and the prices are beginning to reflect this but they still appear from time to time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taigatrommel Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 I'll pipe up with some dissent... I really don't like the shape of the Airfix mk2D. The body profile is unrealistic, not nearly enough curve on the lower bodyside. The corridor connections aren't very pretty either! The Lima ones may be a couple of mm short, but with SE Finecast flush glazing they get lifted to a whole new level. If you feel like going the extra mile, you can replace the bogies with Replica B4s (a very nice moulding IMO) and cut off the superfluous flap on the corridor connection. Also, if you're not in a wild hurry, it might be worth seeing what the longer term fruits of the Murphy Irish air con mk2s is. A friend recently mentioned that ModelRail were planning to come aboard and produce BR varients- I don't read ModelRail, so if anyone can confirm or otherwise it would be great. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted November 24, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 24, 2009 Three shells were available in that range, a TSO, an FO and a BSO Due to common bodyshells, all 5 variants can be modelled I believe? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodnok Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 As already mentioned the original Airfix product was produced as a Mk2D. Stones air conditioning with two small fans together on the chassis and the toilets on the FO and TSO on the same side at opposite ends. BSOs and FOs were made first and can still be easily found, the TSO was released by Airfix under GMR (Great Model Railways) and not too many were made before Airfix went under. Mainline produced loads of TSOs (come to think of it I've never seen a Mainline FO or BSO); Hattons were selling the TSOs off at ??11.50 in 1998 so I picked up about ten. All these coaches are the correct length with reasonably flush tinted windows (Hornby's aren't tinted). Ah, that's a minus point for the Hornby version - the windows would need tinting. So if I am looking out for these, it's Airfix, GMR, Mainline or Dapol - but not Hornby (unless I also find tinted glazing from somewhere). Lima made a Mk2F with Temperature Ltd air conditioning (one large fan on the chassis and no middle box on the other side). The toilet windows were correct that the FO had the toilets on the same side and the TSO had them always towards the right hand end. The main problem is these coaches are like the Mk2B in that they are about 2.5 - 3 mm to short (plus the heavily recessed window glazing). This doesn't appear to be a problem until you try to put an Airfix chassis under a Lima body to make a Mk2E. I've heard of people hacking the windows about to make a Mk2E TSO from a Mk2D TSO - transplanting one bog window to the other side of the coach. Is there anything that needs doing to the FO externally other than renumbering, if the toilets are both on the same side on both coaches? Personally I like the old Airfix moulds. Some people have said that they are a bit long in the tooth but given a decent coat of paint with good quality transfers on the sides and especially the ends I feel that they are just as good as current models. The Airfix and Mainline bogies have plastic wheels, the Dapol raspberry ripple stock appear to have shorter axles which can cause derailments but the Hornby wheels and axles are fine. So all of the pre-Hornby versions should be the target of a wheel replacement programme - Airfix and Mainline to replace plastic wheels, and Dapol because of derailments? Or are the whole bogies in need of replacement on Dapol examples because of the axle length? This is becoming a veritable minefield... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
backwaterscotland Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 (come to think of it I've never seen a Mainline FO or BSO) I can confirm that mainline did produce at least some of the BSO coaches as I have two of them lying on my bench here - 1 to convert to a DBSO and a spare. I also think that the RLO conversion I made a few months back used a Mainline FO as the base but I can't lay my hands on it to check just now. I have quite a few of the Airfix/GMR/Mainline/Dapol/Hornby Mk2d's - mostly used as conversion fodder into RLOs, BUOs and DBSOs Re-wheeling the pre-Hornby ones is a good idea though as I find the earlier ones don't always run true. Ah, that's a minus point for the Hornby version - the windows would need tinting. So if I am looking out for these, it's Airfix, GMR, Mainline or Dapol - but not Hornby (unless I also find tinted glazing from somewhere). Hurst models used do a tinting material that looks quite good placed behind the Hornby glazing but I can't find it on their website currently. From the old website : TGL000 Tinted Glazing Material ??3.50Tinted Black Plastic to simulate ???Spectrafloat??? tinted glass. Tinted Glazing plastic can be used as a secondary material to tint existing windows or as new glazing for models. It can be taped in place using sticky tape. Alternatively it can be secured with a small amount of contact adhesive or PVA glue. Dimensions approximately 105 x 297mm. Andy B) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Hiya Somewhere through the Mk2e build the door windows changed size from the deep size as per the mk2d to the same depth as the main bodyside windows. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted November 24, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 24, 2009 Due to common bodyshells, all 5 variants can be modelled I believe? The 2d BFK has very different window spacing to the BSO, and the brake compartment is quite a bit shorter. The BFK can be created with quite heavy cut and shut. Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 I've heard of people hacking the windows about to make a Mk2E TSO from a Mk2D TSO - transplanting one bog window to the other side of the coach. Is there anything that needs doing to the FO externally other than renumbering, if the toilets are both on the same side on both coaches? The Mk2E FOs had one less roof vent at one end and I really can't remember which end it was, apart from that (and they have fawn vestibules and gangway doors not red) they look like a Mk2D FO from the outside. The Mk2F FOs were like a Mk2E except they had the single fan and the pressure ventilation cabinet was removed. So all of the pre-Hornby versions should be the target of a wheel replacement programme - Airfix and Mainline to replace plastic wheels, and Dapol because of derailments? Or are the whole bogies in need of replacement on Dapol examples because of the axle length? This is becoming a veritable minefield... The Dapol bogie is the same as all the others, for some unknown reason the axles seem shorter giving considerable play in the side frames. Porbably cost cutting at the time. Somewhere through the Mk2e build the door windows changed size from the deep size as per the mk2d to the same depth as the main bodyside windows. Cheers Jim This was mentioned on the B.R Coaching Stock forum a while ago. No definitive date was found for the change and numerous coaches had their doors swapped over time anyway. The length of the grey on the doors also changed at some time. I choose to ignore both these points to keep some form of sanity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted November 25, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 25, 2009 The 2d BFK has very different window spacing to the BSO, and the brake compartment is quite a bit shorter. The BFK can be created with quite heavy cut and shut. Andi Aren't the 1st & 2nd brakes the same bodyshell, likewise the open and corridor 1st's ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
westie7 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 See the old forum at Cut and shut Airfix/Dapol/Hornby Mk2d For using a BSO and a FO to create a BFK Mk2d Will try to import the photos....... Well that didn't work, Will have to figure out how to import these photos from the old forum? Sorry 'bout that. Rgds Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kintbury jon Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Aren't the 1st & 2nd brakes the same bodyshell, likewise the open and corridor 1st's ? Only for the early Mk2's. BSO's from mark 2-2c had the BFK spacing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S500-W9 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 RE the 2D BFK, forget about all the 'cuts and shuts' , I saw at Warley a new etch from Hurst Models being a set of sides for creating this vehicle, the recommendation being to use the 2D FO as a basis. Much better than butchering fingers/a vehicle and should save lots of time! As for the other vehicles, I went for the Hornby ones as IMHO, they have a decent paint job including the white line separating the grey and blue panels. Will have to renumber them from WR to ER before use !! Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Taz Posted November 25, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 25, 2009 See the old forum at Cut and shut Airfix/Dapol/Hornby Mk2d For using a BSO and a FO to create a BFK Mk2d Will try to import the photos....... Well that didn't work, Will have to figure out how to import these photos from the old forum? Sorry 'bout that. Rgds Mark Is this the thread you meant? http://www.rmweb.co....t=cut+shut+mk2d Here are some sample pics from it: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted November 25, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 25, 2009 RE the 2D BFK, forget about all the 'cuts and shuts' , I saw at Warley a new etch from Hurst Models being a set of sides for creating this vehicle, the recommendation being to use the 2D FO as a basis. Much better than butchering fingers/a vehicle and should save lots of time! Rob Depends on personal modelling ability and time available I guess, a well done cut and shut model of bfk will look better than a well done model using the Hurst etch, (partly because it will be consistent with the rest of the rake of coaches, secondly because the etch starts to intoduce errors in width, along with the potential unsightly joint between the etched part of the sides and the non etched parts (ie with roof and doors.) However it is a lot easier to get a good looking model using the etches because it takes out a lot of the more complicated marking and cutting that you have to get perfect joints on for the end result to look good. Of course there is also a lot less wastage with the Hurst option. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Only for the early Mk2's. BSO's from mark 2-2c had the BFK spacing. Nearly but not quite. The Mk 2Cs were like the air-cons; the BSOs had second class window spacing so they were not the same shell as the BFKs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 For anyone interested in modelling a Mk2D BFK I took a full set of brake section dimensions back in 1984 when travelling from Plymouth to Exeter. I wouldn't quote them to the nearest millimetre but for OO modelling they're good enough. Dimensions on top diagram: 19 inches, 27 inches, 12 inches, 13 inches, 25 inches, 24.5 inches for lower diagram 24.5 inches, 25 inches, 25.25 inches, 15.25 inches, 11.5 inches, 19 inches Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
westie7 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Is this the thread you meant? http://www.rmweb.co....t=cut+shut+mk2d Here are some sample pics from it: Aha! Thats the one, Ta V.much. Typical for Hurst now to do an Etch! Rgds Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 Nearly but not quite. The Mk 2Cs were like the air-cons; the BSOs had second class window spacing so they were not the same shell as the BFKs. Also there were no Mk.2B BSOs, only BFK, TSO and FK. The FO wasn't added until the Mk.2c series and used the same pattern seats as the 1966 Mk.2 Pullmans. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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