Diesel Streamliners

[Oldddudders]

I shall have to do a little research before this takes off, but the steam thread seems pretty healthy, so why not a diesel version? I see there being two main categories - the early one-offs, like the Pioneer Zephyr, which had pretty short lives in some cases, due to their limited power, equally-limited accommodation and lack of flexibility; and the mainly-Post-War roll-out of new and flashy trains, often with GM units on the front, in the innocent belief that the boom would last forever. [Cue the Boeing 707 - but many lines had seen a fall-off in traffic even before that time.]

[Ozexpatriate]

I see there being two main categories - the early one-offs, like the Pioneer Zephyr, and the mainly-Post-War roll-out of new and flashy trains, often with GM units on the front.]

You could easily address this with multiple questions, but I think you might want to limit it to the one-offs: Zephyrs, UP M-10000, Gulf Mobile and Northern Rebel etc.

 

There are so many different named trains often each with radically different liveries over time. You might quickly far exceed the 20 answer limit with the post war named trains and many will share motive power.

[CraigZ]

Despite being a PRR/Anthracite road/Seaboard AIr Line/Atlantic Coast Line honk, for the little streamliners I've always been partial to the original Texas Rockets on the Rock Island...three car articulated sets pulled by EMD 1200 TA units. The only prototype photo that my weak Google Fu is bringing up is here http://www.trainboard.com/grapevine/showthread.php?t=101023 ...in black and white, no less.

 

"Big" trains - the Seaboard's Silver trains - Silver Star, Silver Meteor, Silver Comet. When new and fresh, solid matching strings of stainless steel cars behind 'citrus' liveried E units...must have been spectacular to see.

[Adrian Wintle]

The problem with diesel streamliners is that, beyond early 'set train' ones, most passenger locos had streamlined bodies, as did a fair number of first-generation freight locos.

 

Passenger:

E-units (EA, E1, E2, E3, E4, E5, E6, E7, E8, E9)

FP7/FP9

passenger-geared F3/F7

PA

FPA

Baldwin passenger Sharks

Erie-built

C-Liner (pass)

P32/P40/P42

MPI-36/40

F59PHI

LRC

 

Freight:

FT

F3/F7

FA

Baldwin freight Sharks

C-Liner

BL-2

 

And where do cowl units fit in:

F40PH

F59PH

F45/FP45

etc.

 

And we won't even mention electrics like the GG1.

 

Adrian

[Sir Ray]

I've always like the early shovel-nosed EMC Zephyrs, and they weren't all that short-lived either - the Pioneer Zephyr served in revenue service till 1960, and now resides in the basement of the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry ('Home of the Deli-Sliced Humans'). There were other such 'Zephyr' power cars, judging from the book "Diesel Locomotives: The First 50 Years" (a bit American-centric, as apparently no European or Asian diesels existed before 1972 - wait, sorry, 21 Krauss-Maffeis did back in 1962), there seemed to be about 10 of the Shovel noses power cars, all CB&Q or B&M it looks like. It is interesting seeing how the designs that EMC (later EMD) was offering changed, and the evolution as the bloated-looking M-10000Turret-style locomotive morphed into the more sleek M-10003 styles ('automobile style', the book asserts), and finally via the EA into the E units we all know (and may or may not love), with some weird design branches along the way.

 

CraigZ, I bet the reason for your lack of Ts wasn't weak Google-Fu, but the fact that the GM locomotive division was called EMC until 1941, when it became EMD.

For example, 'EMC TA wiki' brings up the obligatory Wiki article whlle EMD TA wiki brings up..., hmm... the exact same article, so what do I know

 

Alas, I didn't like the Shovel-Noses enough to pay US$350.00+ for the HO scale Con-Cor models...

[Oldddudders]

Alas, I didn't like the Shovel-Noses enough to pay US$350.00+ for the HO scale Con-Cor models...

Part of my motivation for mentioning the diesels was Con-Cor's new announcement that their next project is the New Haven Comet http://www.con-cor.com/HO-1935-New-Haven-Comet.html. Had the £ been better against the $ I might well have bought a Zephyr, which isn't that far off track on the Joint Line south of Denver which I kinda model.

[Oldddudders]

Well, here are the runners and riders for the Diesel Streamliner favourites poll

 

UP M10000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-10000

 

Burlington Pioneer Zephyr http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Zephyr

 

Illinois Central Green Diamond http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Diamond

 

Maine Central/Boston & Maine Flying Yankee http://www.flyingyankee.com/history.html

 

NY New Haven & Hartford Comet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NH_Comet.jpg

 

Gulf Mobile & Northern Rebel http://www.railroadheritage.org/SPT--FullImage.php?ResourceId=2265&FieldName=Screenshot

 

Rio Grande Prospector http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prospector_(train)

 

Santa Fe Super Chief http://mysite.verizon.net/coyote97/Route66Railway/Timeline.htm

 

Baltimore & Ohio #50 http://transportmuseumassociation.org/collection/Baltimore_&_Ohio_50.htm

[Oldddudders]

I also found this page pretty interesting with some good pics. http://www.dieselpunks.org/profiles/blogs/flying-americans

 

[i must admit to having so enjoyed one of their other pages that a few French railcars have mysteriously landed on my layout in the last couple of weeks. Weak-minded doesn't begin to describe it.....]

[Oldddudders]

The problem with diesel streamliners is that, beyond early 'set train' ones, most passenger locos had streamlined bodies, as did a fair number of first-generation freight locos.

You might add DL109 (ok, so DL103B, DL105, DL107 and DL110, too) as an outstanding design. New Haven's 60 units surely helped them through the war.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:OP-15291.jpg shows a CNO&TP example.

[Oldddudders]

Poll now ready - I think!

[coachmann]

Reference list by Adrian, the US Diesels were simply machines with noses. If any of those car-body diesels mentioned are streamlined, then so were the British NB Warships, Class 40s, 45s etc. 8)

 

The 'Flying Yankee' Unit was streamlined to some extent but it was pretty tacky stuff IMV.

[CraigZ]

The TA was a specialised loco designed for the Texas Rocket...nobody else had 'em. Tapered at the back to match the train as well...so much as dedicated as the others you mention.

 

*lobbies for poll inclusion*

[Oldddudders]

The TA was a specialised loco designed for the Texas Rocket...nobody else had 'em. Tapered at the back to match the train as well...so much as dedicated as the others you mention.

 

*lobbies for poll inclusion*

In the circumstances, comma, I am prepared to add the Pocket Rocket to the list, but have to point out that 625 and 626, the Rock's E3s, also had a taper at the end (not that BLI bothered, sadly).

[Ozexpatriate]

As I said in the steam streamliners thread, there's no accounting for taste. But somebody voted for the 1935 Santa Fe Super Chief?

 

Now I grant you, the second (1937) incarnation of the Super Chief with the EMC E1 in warbonnet was a lot better, and the later versions, particularly C1950 with post-war Pullman and Budd cars introduced after 1948, looked stunning.

 

The Zephyrs have to take the prize - they were revolutionary and set the standard, though the UP streamliners in their yellow and poopy brown were certainly distinctive.

 

I visited the Burlington Zephyr on display in the basement of the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry a couple of years ago. There is an interactive presentation as you move car by car that's a bit cringe-worthy but probably accomplishes what it sets out to in terms of engaging the "general public". At least it's inside now. The last time I saw it, it was in the museum's back yard, alongside the U-Boat.

[BR60103]

Unusual, but I rode the remnants of it: The Roger Williams (New Haven) was an RDC-variant train with what looks like PA noses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Williams_%28train%29

[Oldddudders]

Unusual, but I rode the remnants of it: The Roger Williams (New Haven) was an RDC-variant train with what looks like PA noses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Williams_%28train%29

Yes, in the desperate years of the mid-50s, when passenger numbers were diving, a few railroads sought new and imaginative ways of keeping the faithful happy - and basically tried the same recipe as in the 30s. Flashy sets with lightweight construction, a good look at talgo principles, bus bodies. And a fat lot of good it all did them. Riding characteristics of some - e.g. the GM Aerotrain - were said to be dire, and that one ended up doing Rock Island commuter runs.

[CraigZ]

Yes, in the desperate years of the mid-50s, when passenger numbers were diving, a few railroads sought new and imaginative ways of keeping the faithful happy - and basically tried the same recipe as in the 30s. Flashy sets with lightweight construction, a good look at talgo principles, bus bodies. And a fat lot of good it all did them. Riding characteristics of some - e.g. the GM Aerotrain - were said to be dire, and that one ended up doing Rock Island commuter runs.

 

The two Aerotrain demonstrators yielded one sale - to the Rock Island. And as you note the Rock ended up buying the demo...and all three ended up in commuter service.

 

The comment was that they rode like buses. Well the coaches WERE build on widened bus bodies from GM's Motor Coach Division. Note the resemblance:

 

Durham NC 13 Feb 87 GMC "Fishbowl" coach

 

And the best on line photo I could fine of a coach:

Aerotrain at www.joesherlock.com

[Oldddudders]

And the best on line photo I could fine of a coach:

Aerotrain at www.joesherlock.com

What a travesty compared with the original diesel COLA/COSF of 20 years before!

[Adrian Wintle]

Reference list by Adrian, the US Diesels were simply machines with noses. If any of those car-body diesels mentioned are streamlined, then so were the British NB Warships, Class 40s, 45s etc. 8)

 

The 'Flying Yankee' Unit was streamlined to some extent but it was pretty tacky stuff IMV.

 

They were streamlined compared to the standard steam locos or diesel hood units, and the railway advertising called them streamliners (particularly trains hauled by E-units). The PRR sharks (diesel and passenger) were styled to match the T1 steam streamliner.

 

When combined with matching coaches, they were at least as streamlined as the prototype diesel streamliners in the poll.

 

I did forget one set-train streamliner (although powered by fossil fuel, it really isn't a diesel) - the Turbo, which ran semi-successfully on CN and VIA, and less so elsewhere.

 

Adrian

[Glorious NSE]

Amtrak also had some French built (??) turbines as well as those Turbo sets, but I think we're getting into MU territory with those despite the slightly pointy noses...

[Adrian Wintle]

Amtrak also had some French built (??) turbines as well as those Turbo sets, but I think we're getting into MU territory with those despite the slightly pointy noses...

 

I think Rohr is the name you want...

 

And the original streamliners aren't deeply into MU territory? In UK terms they really are the equivalent of the Blue Pullman or the GWR railcars, as they were used for relatively long distance city-to-city runs.

 

The Aerotrain, Turbo, and possibly the VIA LRC could be considered descendents of the original streamliners.

 

Adrian

[Oldddudders]

Of course, in the high-speed diesel stakes (ok, so it wasn't a true diesel but then it certainly wasn't steam, gasoline or electric either!) this sci-fi thingie takes the biscuit! 180 mph in an RDC!

 

http://www.automotto.com/entry/american-heritage-new-york-central-s-m-497-jet-powered-train/