16t minerals

[br2975]

On 15/07/2024 at 12:36, south_tyne said:

Possibly a minefield of a question, but we're 16t minerals in widespread use by the NCB? And if so, was it concentrated on certain pits and/or collieries, and was it only when they were decommissioned by BR and therefore available secondhand?

 

I see Bachmann, Accuruscale and Farish have all done various runs (or will) of NCB liveried 16 tonners, but I've rarely seen photos of them. 

 

I appreciate this may be an unanswerable question, so please just tell me if it is! 

 

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Mountain Ash MA238.

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When rail ended at Mount after the flood in 1981, many of its wagons were moved to other South Wales pits, for re-use.

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MA238 was captured at Mount circa 1976

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No.2378 was captured at Cwm (Llantwit) in the winter of 84/85, during the strike

[Metr0Land]

45288 Sankey circa 1967 by David Hills, on Flickr

 

LNER 69594 on an up goods at Luton Bute Street September 1959 by Charlie Verrall, on Flickr

 

Cambrian BR Sulzer Type 2's - September 1971 by Stephen Godden, on Flickr

 

Ashford Downside Yard - 09 January 1972 by Stephen Godden, on Flickr

[Mol_PMB]

Nice mix of minerals and tank wagons in that second photo, odd to see them jumbled up.

Off-topic, but the tanks are probably for bitumen/tar/creosote or other heavy residue from a gasworks or tar distillery. They're all small diameter and the nearest one is lagged.

[Ruston]

8 hours ago, br2975 said:

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Mountain Ash MA238.

.

When rail ended at Mount after the flood in 1981, many of its wagons were moved to other South Wales pits, for re-use.

.

MA238 was captured at Mount circa 1976

.

No.2378 was captured at Cwm (Llantwit) in the winter of 84/85, during the strike

There's something odd about those. Have the bodies been but down in height? In fact are they "proper" 16 tonners at all? The distance from the headstock to the outer spring hangers looks to be greater than usual.

[New Haven Neil]

1 hour ago, Ruston said:

There's something odd about those. Have the bodies been but down in height? In fact are they "proper" 16 tonners at all? The distance from the headstock to the outer spring hangers looks to be greater than usual.

 

Look like 14 tonners, but I know little of them - we need to ask Paul? @hmrspaul

Edited July 20 by New Haven Neil

[Nickey Line]

8 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

from a gasworks or tar distillery

There were two gasworks down the line, one just north of Bute Street and the other at Dunstable.

Edited July 20 by Nickey Line
Changed up for down!

[hmrspaul]

3 hours ago, New Haven Neil said:

 

Look like 14 tonners, but I know little of them - we need to ask Paul? @hmrspaul

There are plenty of NCB built mineral wagons. This collection has a number of them, some with the registration details from the frames - usually from tank wagons. They are longer and lower than BR 108s. https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/cynheidreinternalwagon

 

Paul

[br2975]

5 hours ago, Ruston said:

There's something odd about those. Have the bodies been but down in height? In fact are they "proper" 16 tonners at all? The distance from the headstock to the outer spring hangers looks to be greater than usual.

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I didn't note any with builder's plates on them, so can't positively identify their origins.

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Mountain Ash had a large fleet of 21 tonners, built on former tank wagon running gear, for use carrying duff between Penrhiwceiber / Pontcynon and the Abeflyarff Phurnacite plant when the NCB took over the former BR / GWR Vale of Neath line (at the turn of the 70s)  linking the two locations and thereby being no longer reliant on BR for moving their 'duff'.

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Edited July 20 by br2975

[Metr0Land]

Aberystwyth

 

[Metr0Land]

Quainton

 

 

Euston

 

Aylesbury

 

Nottingham Victoria

 

[Binky]

How accurate are the various old Hornby RTR 16T minerals that I see for sale secondhand at exhibitions and on various online platforms? Are any of them acceptable from a few feet away or are they all best avoided?

[MJI]

Not very.

 

I would kit, print, or Accurascale

[john new]

1 hour ago, Binky said:

How accurate are the various old Hornby RTR 16T minerals that I see for sale secondhand at exhibitions and on various online platforms? Are any of them acceptable from a few feet away or are they all best avoided?

Acceptability is solely down to your “eye” for accuracy. I know many of my items are wrong in the under frame area and also probably not that accurate in the bodywork.  I know this from reading articles about them, however, when I see them on a layout all I see is what I expect to see. A rake of 100% accurate versions, but in mint ex-works condition, offends my own “eye” more than a wrong brake part.
 

It may well be an age thing as growing up as a child in the 1950s the only brake gear on a Hornby Dublo and similar wagons was the V hanger and sometimes a block of brake gear whereas these days sub-solebar detailing has gone so far the other way that much of it as modelled is only visible with the item upside down/crashed!
 

Then came PECO’s Wonderful wagons (the ones with springing etc) and the Airfix range, albeit their brake gear on the 16T kit has errors. 
 

Edited September 10 by john new
Extra note added.

[The Johnster]

RTR mineral wagons, both 16ton steel and 12/13ton 7-plank types, prior to the release (early 00s?) of the current Bachmann versions, are all on whatever firm it is' generic wagon chassis, which means they are on incorrect 10' wheelbase chassis of various sorts, and should be on 9'.  This further means that the bodies are stretched to maintain the correct proportions, which in turn makes it difficult to cut'n'shut them to the correct length, especially wooden planked ones with sloping outside angle-iron framing.  Since Bachmann brought out their wagons on the correct 9' wheelbase chassis, Oxford and Accurascale have produced correct to scale models as well.  Some of the older toolings are still in production from Hornby and Dapol, and should be avoided if you are concerned about scale wheelbase and wagon size.  Likewise those from Mainline, Replica, Airfix, Lima, Wrenn, Triang, Triang Hornby, Hornby Dublo, and Trix.  Another retrograde feature of these older wagons is the moulded handbrake lever, and on some makes the brake blocks not aligning with the wheels (they are often in a good scale position but the wheels are not the correct scale gauge because of the compromised nature of 00 standards).  My view is that brake blocks in line with the wheels look better despite being in the wrong scale position.

 

The problem is exascerbated if wagons from more modern toolings are mixed on the same layout with older toolings, and especially in the same train, because the differences will be much more apparent and obvious.

 

Kits, going back to Airfix in the early 60s and including Peco, Ratio, Parkside, Coopercraft. Cambrian and similar, are much more accurate to scale and, compared to the older RTR examples, better detailed.  Most are fairly easy to build in about an hour (which might be an issue if you are making up a 60-wagon block coal train) and will run well so long as you can make up the ends, sides, and floor square and true (I use Lego bricks as formers to help with this), are well ballasted, and have metal wheels running in brass bearings.  Ultimately, it comes down to the compromise you are prepared to accept between scale, accuracy, cost, availability, time, your ability to suspend disbelief, and any other relevant factor, and this is a very personal matter which will be unique to you.  I would certainly not criticise you for whatever wagons you use on your layout; if it works for you, that's good enough for me!  But this post should give you the background knowledge you need to make an informed decision.

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

5 hours ago, Binky said:

How accurate are the various old Hornby RTR 16T minerals that I see for sale secondhand at exhibitions and on various online platforms? Are any of them acceptable from a few hundred feet away or are they all best avoided?

 

FIFY!

 

Mike,

[Hal Nail]

On 06/02/2017 at 13:11, Metr0Land said:

 

 

47643 Wesleys by Phil Waterfield, on Flickr

 

This may well have been covered but I cant find it - what does the empty square box just under the door end stripe represent?

 

I'm doing a couple of retro fitted 4 shoe types in late 60s era. I think these typically had that empty square box as this one from @hmrspaul:

 

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/mineralmortonmxv/e76edf8f

 

 

 

 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

6 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

 

This may well have been covered but I cant find it - what does the empty square box just under the door end stripe represent?

 

I'm doing a couple of retro fitted 4 shoe types in late 60s era. I think these typically had that empty square box as this one from @hmrspaul:

 

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/mineralmortonmxv/e76edf8f

 

 

 

 

 

 

It was for a seemingly short lived idea of identifying speed ratings for wagons, you'll also find numbers in boxes.

 

Mike.

[Hal Nail]

1 minute ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

It was for a seemingly short lived idea of identifying speed ratings for wagons, you'll also find numbers in boxes.

 

Mike.

 

Thanks. 

I believe the retrofit were from 1966 onwards so presumably were all outshopped in the later bauxite with maintenance panels and as you say numbers in boxes?

I'm not sure what the unboxed numbers on this sheet would have been used for therefore (if at all)?

 

 

 

 

 

[hmrspaul]

42 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

 

This may well have been covered but I cant find it - what does the empty square box just under the door end stripe represent?

 

I'm doing a couple of retro fitted 4 shoe types in late 60s era. I think these typically had that empty square box as this one from @hmrspaul:

 

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/mineralmortonmxv/e76edf8f

 

 

 

 

 

That is an interesting photo. T'is a pity the photo isn't dated. The double V can be seen, and the bottom door markings are very strong. Also very unusual for the wagon to be labelled MINERAL. An unfitted example repainted in freight stock red, as was required for all wagons for a couple of years from 1963 until someone realised what a mistake that was and returned to differentiating unfit wagons with freight stock grey. Great shame the running number is not readable. 

 

Paul

Apparently the loco moved from Burton in August 1966 and condemned a couple of months later. 

Edited September 15 by hmrspaul