Glorious NSE Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Many thanks - will keep playing Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BromsMods Posted July 8, 2011 Author Share Posted July 8, 2011 Well returned it to Broms Mods and a reply from John stated that when he tested it it "went up in a puff of smoke"!!! A new one is on the way. I look forward to trying it. Excellent service as usual. Roger It's interesting that over the years I've had decoders from a number of manufacturers which have been returned by customers, some of which have showed similar characteristics when I've come to test them. Yet, I've installed and tested a huge number of decoders straight from the packet and I've yet to have one to fail!!! Yesterday I installed one of the new DCC Concepts TS series decoders in a Class 14 (guide at http://www.bromsgrov...l14dccinstr.htm) and was really impressed with the slow running qualities of the decoder straight from the packet. Pity the same couldn't be said about the model which has a pronounced wobble! With some adjustment of the speed curve using DecoderPro it was possible to get the model to just creep along with almost imperceptible movement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250BOB Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 It's interesting that over the years I've had decoders from a number of manufacturers which have been returned by customers, some of which have showed similar characteristics when I've come to test them. Yet, I've installed and tested a huge number of decoders straight from the packet and I've yet to have one to fail!!! Yesterday I installed one of the new DCC Concepts TS series decoders in a Class 14 (guide at http://www.bromsgrov...l14dccinstr.htm) and was really impressed with the slow running qualities of the decoder straight from the packet. Pity the same couldn't be said about the model which has a pronounced wobble! With some adjustment of the speed curve using DecoderPro it was possible to get the model to just creep along with almost imperceptible movement. John, I would be interested to know what settings you used for CV's 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. ? Please. Thanks..............Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BromsMods Posted July 8, 2011 Author Share Posted July 8, 2011 Hi Bob I'll try and generate a DecoderPro file on our website which can then be downloaded - give me a day or so!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250BOB Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Hi Bob I'll try and generate a DecoderPro file on our website which can then be downloaded - give me a day or so!! That would be really useful........thanks John. Rgds....Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMJ Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 I can recommend the fitting of a Stay Alive version into the Bachmann On30 Gas Mechanical. It runs very well. There is just enough space inside the hood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave flint Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 How good is this stay alive then ? I know they're no excuse for clean rails/wheels/pickups etc, but my current setup is for my three year old. It means a lot 0-6-0 and 0-4-0 locos, and setrack points with insulfrogs - not the best combination ! However, there is usually a lot of space inside the locomotives. Am I wasting my time and money with these chips or will they noticeably improve performance over pointwork ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I have a pair in the aforementioned Athearn SW1500s, nice loco's, 4 axles, pickup on all wheels, but they are very lightweight - these chips have made a noticeable difference even on them, so I would imagine they would cope with insulfrogs quite well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMJ Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 How good is this stay alive then ? I know they're no excuse for clean rails/wheels/pickups etc, but my current setup is for my three year old. It means a lot 0-6-0 and 0-4-0 locos, and setrack points with insulfrogs - not the best combination ! However, there is usually a lot of space inside the locomotives. Am I wasting my time and money with these chips or will they noticeably improve performance over pointwork ? As mentioned in my post about the On30 Gas Mech is a 4 wheeler and with the Stay Alive it runs a treat. I have even fitted one into the A2 pacific (ample space in smoke box) and Ivatt 2MT (squeezed into tender) both of which I'd say have improved performance. Buy a 5 pack they are cheaper that way. See Bromsgrove website for pricing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250BOB Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I have a pair in the aforementioned Athearn SW1500s, nice loco's, 4 axles, pickup on all wheels, but they are very lightweight - these chips have made a noticeable difference even on them, so I would imagine they would cope with insulfrogs quite well. Martyn, can you tell me which model of decoder, and what cv settings you have used please. i.e. cv's, 2,3,4,5 and 6. Thanks.............Bob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 D2SAPs Current setup(*) is: 2 - 0 3 - 30 4 - 10 5 - 36 6 - 12 They will be running as a pair back to back so i've isolated the cab-end lights, 'reversed' one and they are both running as a pair on the same number, 24 steps. (*) still playing - I want to pass the pair on to a guy in our group with a loft-based oval to see how they run properly, i've only about 8' max to test them on and they can't get up to top speed in that distance without holding on to them first! 36 sounds very low for a top speed but the prototypes i'm modelling work in pairs (or even one-plus-slug) on heavy urban transfer jobs, I make it about a 30mph which is probably as quick as the real things ever get... I'm quite happy with them, but the wierd alternate fast/slow steps thing is still an issue. I suspect it might not be noticeable on an LH90 but on the 100 where you can dial up one notch at a time it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250BOB Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Hi Martyn, Thanks for the cv information. My settings are as follows for a Hornby 8f 2-8-0 freight loco, and they are perfect. I use 126 speed steps. cv2.....18 cv3.....250 cv4.....75 cv5.....80 cv6.....unaltered from std. I cant get the loco to move until I get to about speed step 14 of 126, but when I set cv2 to 18, it just moves off on speed step 1, but extremely slowly indeed. I'm struggling a bit using the decoder in my faster passenger locos.? Bob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benbow Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Well the replacement chip arrived in double quick time from Broms Mods and is now fitted in a Bachmann 4-6-0 4mt and so far is working really well straight from the packet. Nice slow running although I have noticed the occasional sudden forward jerk. Not sure if this is a surge from the capacitor or what? I don't currently have a decent run to let it stretch it's legs. Performance over an insulfrog single slip is excellent which is what I was after. Roger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BromsMods Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 That would be really useful........thanks John. Rgds....Bob Bob Try the file at http://www.bromsgrov...settings4mm.htm Right click on the file name and then Save As.... I haven't had time to try reloading it as been too busy!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250BOB Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Bob Try the file at http://www.bromsgrov...settings4mm.htm Right click on the file name and then Save As.... I haven't had time to try reloading it as been too busy!! Hi John, The link you put on doesnt seem to work.........at least it isnt for me.? Rgds...............Bob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokebox Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Try this link Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave flint Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Okay folks. I took the plunge, ordered 15 of the decoders (the thin small, the 2 function and 4 function) from Bromsgrove. They're all the same apart from physical size and the functions available. Having fitted them to various Hornby and Bachmann Thomas locos - the 0-6-0 and 0-4-0 models, I thought I'd share experiences. From the off, I noticed that one of the decoder plugs had split in half, but as the wires affected were for functions I wouldn't use, it repaired it without problems. Then I had one decoder self-combust when undergoing testing. No shorts, no anything.......just a lazy wisp of smoke from under the very hot decoder sleeve. I've never had a chip go like this, in 30+ installations. The warranty cover everything except short circuits, and whilst I reckon that no short was present, I have a feeling DCC Concepts will think otherwise. I wired in another chip without any further problems. In use, the chips seem to take a while to get used to their surroundings. My intial test run is over about a metre of track, with a setrack insulfrog point in the middle to fox it. On first run, most of them seem a bit skittish. When they hit a dead spot and trigger the stay alive, the locos seems to do a merry dance back and forwards, as if they've bounced off an invisible rubber block, jerking backwards and forwards. Yes, I've removed all the caps...... After a couple of minutes, the thing does seem to settle down and work. But, it isn't smooth. The loco will stop and then the stay alive kicks in. It moves the wheels about 1/20th of a turn, which in 99 % of cases is good enough to move it onto better contact. With more use, it does seem to improve and become smoother in operation, but its not perfect. You can see the effect of the stay alive if you lift the loco off the rail, as soon as you lift it the wheels jerk a small amount. I've not had a play and tuned CV values yet, apart from some start voltage cv's. but the chips all seem to need tweaking. Certainly, the loco's need higher throttle openings to get going than they did with other decoders in, but I can play with that later. So far, I'm quite impressed as they do seem to do what they're supposed to do. However, I still have some questions about the stay alive function. It doesn't get a big explanation in the instructions - awkwardly made out in the gimmicky form of playing cards - but it does say you can add more than one, if you wire them in parallel. Should they add a jolt of power, or should their power be fed in gently to the output of the chip ? Thanks to my burning chip, I now have an extra cap spare so will add it to the Iron 'Arry who is still having problems ! I wonder if they cap is a standard electronic cap (any ideas, folks) or whether DCC concepts will sell caps separately. Either way, I think I need to add more oomph to a couple of locos for it to be fully effective. I'm happy with the chips, and they've greatly reduced the need for the hand of God to move a stalled loco, but feel some more information needs to be forthcoming about the stay alive function and its method of working. There is nothing to say, for example, that the cap needs an amount of time to charge - or not - but something seems to need a while on powered track to then settle in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I suspect if asked by email, Richard of DCC Concepts will tell you exactly which capacitor is used. I believe they are just standard electrolytics, though I think you would be sensible to match the voltage rating of the capacitors if adding more. I don't know how the DCC Concepts "stay alive" is supposed to function, but the jerky behaviour is not what I'd expect from a good decoder with stay alive. The two decoder types I've used with "stay alive" are Zimo (various decoders, with various quantities of electrolytic capacitors) and Lenz Gold (with the very expensive Power-1 module). With these, you only notice the stay alive by comparison with the tiny stutters seen in a loco without stay-alive. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave flint Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 After they've been on the track for a while they do seem to be better - does it take a while for the capacitor to charge ? I can't see it myself, but......... There is definitely a jerk as the stay alive kicks in, and when removed from the track, the stay alive kicks in and moves the wheels a touch - again as a jerk. Is this how your mentioned decoders behave ? Let me say that for the price, I'm happy that the chips live up to most of their promise, even if the effect isn't as smooth as I expected it to be. I can't justify spending loads on these locos, but they did need something to improve performance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Johnson Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 *** The capacitors are indeed electrolytic capacitors. They are attached directly to a small PCB with other components of course/ Yes, they do need time to charge - This is because we have current limited / slowed their initial charge rate quite a lot so they do not look like an unusual load when programming - that would prevent use pf programming track as it would look like a short to the controller if charge rate was left uncontrolled. You can parallel two stay-alives without worry. More are actually OK (( experimented wit hseveral quite successfully) however you may need to look at the resistances used as the initial turn-on current will increase too - no big deal other than on the programming track where reading the decoder will become a problem. Where the pickups are less than good and the track is also not so clean, some locos may sometimes jump a little - with a "brown-out" as experienced by most loco's most of the time, the stay alive will simply keep it moving steadily and slow runnning will be silky compared to having no SA - with a total loss of contact long enough to exceed the refresh timing of your control system, there may well be a "kick" to get it going as the decoder then simply sees a pure DC power supply. We felt that that was prefereble to allowing the stall, but not all users may agree. So... if you want to remove the kick it is easy - just disable DC running as its a pure DC "kick". This will not prevent the SA doing its job the rest of the time. regards Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave flint Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Thanks Richard. Going through the menu in my Elite (easy to setup with a temp test track) the decoders do seem to be set up as dcc only as a default. At the risk of asking a "piece of string" question, how long does it take for the stay alive function to fully charge, if a loco is on the track but not moving ? Also, are extra stay alive caps available to buy separately, or are they a standard cap that can be bought from an electronics store ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crantock Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Noting that, for good reasons, the capacitor takes a while to charge, is the performance effected if it is used on a layout whereby some sidings are still "point switched" - ie the loco can be isolated from the power. Logically, I think not since there is no circuit to discharge to but equally I suspect you may find that when a loco is first called out the sidings some time after switch on you may be surprised it isn't yet staying alive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Johnson Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 *** Dave - 1/ They take just a few seconds to charge. The capacitor itself is a standard capacitor, but there is a tiny circular PCB with many small parts attached to it as part of the stay-alive, so no, you can't just use a standard capacitor. (So yes, expect best results after a few seconds) 2/ Yes, they are available separately and are ex stock in packs of 3 at $A19.95 - if your UK retailer needs them they can have them within a week of placing an order from me, or perhaps even less if an order is placed with Gaugemaster who are also distributing in the UK for us... (if they have stock) They / the pack is shown towards the bottom of our decoder page http://www.dccconcep...ve_decoders.htm 3/ No, Our decoders are all DC enabled by default.... definately. regards Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave flint Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Once again Richard - thank you ! I think the credit card has taken enough of a battering this month, with nearly £300 of decoders bought but I will be making a purchase of some more stay alives soon. Could I ask that a little more info regarding these is issued with the instructions ? I feel that the online docs and the card instructions are a little light on the matter. I'll double check the CV settiings for DCC only as well, and see what difference it makes. We're all learning here as they're new products - and as I said, they definitely improve the performance of my sons locos, but some need a little more "stay alive" than offered by one capacitor unit. I think the sidings issue is something to consider only if you switch the power off without stopping the loco first. The stay-alive will see "no power" and discharge - resulting in some movement. If you stop then loco and then switch off, I would expect the stay-alive to keep the charge. So - drive properly ! Once again Richard - thank you ! I think the credit card has taken enough of a battering this month, with nearly £300 of decoders bought but I will be making a purchase of some more stay alives soon. Could I ask that a little more info regarding these is issued with the instructions ? I feel that the online docs and the card instructions are a little light on the matter. I'll double check the CV settiings for DCC only as well, and see what difference it makes. We're all learning here as they're new products - and as I said, they definitely improve the performance of my sons locos, but some need a little more "stay alive" than offered by one capacitor unit. I think the sidings issue is something to consider only if you switch the power off without stopping the loco first. The stay-alive will see "no power" and discharge - resulting in some movement. If you stop then loco and then switch off, I would expect the stay-alive to keep the charge. So - drive properly ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Johnson Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 *** Good point on the instructions Dave, thank you for reminding me! - I had intended to add a seconday instruction sheet re stay-alive and will now get onto it. (I will also try to speed up my addition of another "extended" instruction set for other "unpublished" features we still haven't released) Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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