D605Eagle Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Yes it is a shame, but I've decided not to proceed and I was so looking forwards to this. I've been on the phone to a mate who was at the show and saw it in the flesh. He said don't bother it looks so wrong. It would have been parked up next to a Bachy deltic and it would grate me every time I looked at it. I'm not going to spend such a large sum of money on something thats wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Yes it is a shame, but I've decided not to proceed and I was so looking forwards to this. I've been on the phone to a mate who was at the show and saw it in the flesh. He said don't bother it looks so wrong. It would have been parked up next to a Bachy deltic and it would grate me every time I looked at it. I'm not going to spend such a large sum of money on something thats wrong. Again, I have to agree. I cancelled as soon as I saw the pre production loco at Warley. Mine too would have ran alongside Bachmann Deltics and I do like a certain amount of uniformity and this.loco just wouldn't have cut the mustard. Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Piszczek Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I have to admit I hadn't really paid that close attention to the Heljan 7mm Deltic. The pair of "look down" photos linked below of the 7mm Heljan and 4mm Bachy Deltic, respectively, really do show the error. Both Bachmann and Heljan have the grey roof paint edge continuing straight across the cab from the grills. You can clearly see the issue, the cabs look very different. It took me a while to get it, now it is really hard to ignore when I look at the Model Rail Scotland photos. Really makes me want to throw my money in another direction- I still haven't gotten around to one of those very nice Class 22s, quite impressed at Dapol's effort to date. I'd hate to punish Hattons for Heljan's error and not order something... Heljan http://www.ehattons.com/images/products/5500_26415_Qty1_ruler.jpg Bachmann http://www.ehattons.com/images/products/32-529A_32940_Qty1_ruler.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
59205 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Did Heljan confirm the delivery date for these at the exhibition? mark When i asked Heljan on Saturday they told me it was going to be April now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
00ERmissus Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I have to admit I hadn't really paid that close attention to the Heljan 7mm Deltic. The pair of "look down" photos linked below of the 7mm Heljan and 4mm Bachy Deltic, respectively, really do show the error. Both Bachmann and Heljan have the grey roof paint edge continuing straight across the cab from the grills. You can clearly see the issue, the cabs look very different. It took me a while to get it, now it is really hard to ignore when I look at the Model Rail Scotland photos. Really makes me want to throw my money in another direction- I still haven't gotten around to one of those very nice Class 22s, quite impressed at Dapol's effort to date. I'd hate to punish Hattons for Heljan's error and not order something... Bachmann http://www.ehattons...._Qty1_ruler.jpg Interesting, looking at the ‘aerial’ photo of the Bachmann Deltic from the above link, it strikes me that if the grey painted roof line had been kept more parallel to the taper of the cab sides rather than running as a straight line, it would in fact have narrowed at each end, more like the real thing. I’m not saying it rectifies the error, it wouldn’t but compare the photo on post 184 to the above image from Hattons and IMHO it would definitely improve the look of the model if this was done. I don’t have a Deltic so I’m only going from what I can see on this image but what do others think? In the meantime, I too have cancelled my DP2 order (early livery version), not only does it appear too slab-sided, the windscreen surrounds don’t look right either and that compromises the face of the loco. I may change my mind when I see it in the flesh but I’m really disappointed, I’ve been looking forward to getting one of these for some time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I am looking at Modern Locomotives Illustrated, December 08-Jan 09. DP2's section is on page 50. Regarding the bodyshell, there's no mention of BR having anything to do with the decision to use a Deltic bodyshell - it simply states that "It was quickly seen [by English Electric] that this bodyshell could accommodate the 16CSVT engine...in all other respects the structural design of the loco reflected the previous bonnet designs from the EE stable". There's a weight diagram line drawing on the same page which shows a view from above and a much more inclined taper to the nose end than is present on the Deltics or DP2, so I'm discounting that evidence. The photographs provided give some interesting insight. The light surrounds are a tad oversized, but this doesn't really detract from the look of the front end. The headcode numerals are wrong and the spacing isn't great either which does detract from the look but is entirely fixable. I'm struggling to see the difference in the bodyshells. I understand what is being said about the tapering og the cab, but to me the Heljan model captures that, albeit dead head on, in Tony M's first photograph, the cab looks too wide at the top and tapers in too sharply to the cab sides. This is where I think I'm going to be controversial! I think the windscreens are the right size and shape, but the cab isn't. There seems to be a discrepancy either side of the cab, by the lower corner of the windscreens, and this makes the whole top half of the cab look over wide. Could this be the reason it is looking odd to some? This does strike me as a "light bulb" shape so I understand the concerns previously expressed in this thread better now. Poring over the rest of the photographs in Modern Locomotives Illustrated, I'm swaying still to buying over not buying, partially because from the side it looks right to me. There is that curve to the bodyshell present - Tony M's 7th picture in shows this - but it clearly isn't as pronounced as on the Bachmann Deltic. I therefore understand and appreciate the position of everyone else who will be mixing Deltics together as it would look the "odd man out" (DP2 always was, if Modern Locomotives Illustrated is anything to go by, but equally it looks like it would have always fitted in with the other Deltics in look, particularly in the TTG). In short, for me, the cab error and the other minor discrepancies aren't enough to stop me from buying one - but then it's not going to be part of a fleet of Deltics, one of a collection of Heljan prototype diesels and I therefore fully understand and appreciate others not buying on the basis of these errors. It is a pity in that respect most certainly that it doesn't get that shape quite right, and if put inbetween what must be now the standard - Bachmann Deltics - in a yard would look out of place, when it should really just look different on a numbering and detail level (vents/exhausts etc and not overall shape). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Soooo... ...what we need now is for Heljan to do a Deltic and Dapol to do DP2, so that those folk who want to run them together can have ones that match, yep? (Tongue firmly in cheek, especially if Coach is passing, smileys predictably not working when I need one...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Soooo... ...what we need now is for Heljan to do a Deltic and Dapol to do DP2, so that those folk who want to run them together can have ones that match, yep? When you put it like that...! It sounds mad but I think I understand what is being said in terms of it should look like a standard Deltic, but it doesn't quite. Side on it looks terrific, head on it looks odd. It's a bit like mixing Bachmann A4s and Hornby A4s, you can't do it if you're 1) like me and verging on the OCD or 2) you want to present a particular scene in the most convincing manner. There the shape at the front end of the Bachmann A4s simply doesn't match the Hornby one, so they will always look odd when put together. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D605Eagle Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I am looking at Modern Locomotives Illustrated, December 08-Jan 09. DP2's section is on page 50. Regarding the bodyshell, there's no mention of BR having anything to do with the decision to use a Deltic bodyshell - it simply states that "It was quickly seen [by English Electric] that this bodyshell could accommodate the 16CSVT engine...in all other respects the structural design of the loco reflected the previous bonnet designs from the EE stable". There's a weight diagram line drawing on the same page which shows a view from above and a much more inclined taper to the nose end than is present on the Deltics or DP2, so I'm discounting that evidence. The photographs provided give some interesting insight. The light surrounds are a tad oversized, but this doesn't really detract from the look of the front end. The headcode numerals are wrong and the spacing isn't great either which does detract from the look but is entirely fixable. I'm struggling to see the difference in the bodyshells. I understand what is being said about the tapering og the cab, but to me the Heljan model captures that, albeit dead head on, in Tony M's first photograph, the cab looks too wide at the top and tapers in too sharply to the cab sides. This is where I think I'm going to be controversial! I think the windscreens are the right size and shape, but the cab isn't. There seems to be a discrepancy either side of the cab, by the lower corner of the windscreens, and this makes the whole top half of the cab look over wide. Could this be the reason it is looking odd to some? This does strike me as a "light bulb" shape so I understand the concerns previously expressed in this thread better now. Poring over the rest of the photographs in Modern Locomotives Illustrated, I'm swaying still to buying over not buying, partially because from the side it looks right to me. There is that curve to the bodyshell present - Tony M's 7th picture in shows this - but it clearly isn't as pronounced as on the Bachmann Deltic. I therefore understand and appreciate the position of everyone else who will be mixing Deltics together as it would look the "odd man out" (DP2 always was, if Modern Locomotives Illustrated is anything to go by, but equally it looks like it would have always fitted in with the other Deltics in look, particularly in the TTG). In short, for me, the cab error and the other minor discrepancies aren't enough to stop me from buying one - but then it's not going to be part of a fleet of Deltics, one of a collection of Heljan prototype diesels and I therefore fully understand and appreciate others not buying on the basis of these errors. It is a pity in that respect most certainly that it doesn't get that shape quite right, and if put inbetween what must be now the standard - Bachmann Deltics - in a yard would look out of place, when it should really just look different on a numbering and detail level (vents/exhausts etc and not overall shape). My only advice would be to see one in the flesh before you buy, and then if your happy, go for it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
00ERmissus Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I think, as the saying goes, ‘the proof of the pudding is in the eating’ and I’m going to wait until I’ve seen it on a plate surrounded with chips before writing it off completely! As has been frequently reported, the camera can play nasty tricks, especially through glass and in artificial light and with a flash - plenty of distortion opportunities there (no disrespect to the photographers). My final decision as to whether I’ll buy one will as usual be made on whether it looks right to me. From what I’ve seen so far, it doesn’t quite but I’ll defer final judgement until it’s here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-gog Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I saw Ben Jones's photos of it today from Model Rail Scotland, and have been looking very closely at all the photos of the Heljan model, and comparing it all the photos I have to hand of DP2 and Deltics in general. The reason why the model looks bulbous in the nose area is because it looks like the curves are of too large a radius compared to the prototype. There's probably very little in it, something in the region of a scale inch or two smaller radius would most probably nail it, but, to my eyes the model most certainly looks wrong. It's a shame as the rest of the model (the bodyside) is quite respectable. OK, the bogie sideframes have little depth, and I'm not sure that the bodyside rad grilles should be that deeply inset (again, it's a matter of a scale inch or two), but apart from those issues it looks quite good. Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony M Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I do have to say the side profile/elevation it looks gorgeous didn't even notice the bogies did not having enough depth. But as soon as I saw the loco in the glass case the front nose just looks wrong (in fact I think the photos do it justice)... I have their Lion & Baby Deltic etc and really like them I even like the 33/0, but this yoke looks wrong. It's a bit like their phat 47, fine until you look at the front and I still can't convince myself to buy one. I do allot of lurking on this forum (as you can see from my very few posts) but I never felt that I needed to post up about a preproduction loco until now. If it looks wrong from the top of a bus then it will look wrong close up. Most people have this on pre-order and will never get to see it until it arrives at their door step or at your local model shop and it's hard to say to the person behind the counter <Andy Pipkin> "I don't like it".... "I want that one" (pointing to a Class 22) </Andy Pipkin> Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluex5 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I have to say I'm pretty damn sure the criticisms regarding the shape are warrented. I'm leaning towards taking delivery still though, I want to see it in the flesh and see if it actually "offends". Being that things like the Bachmann Type 2's and Heljan 33/0 don't bother me at all despite me being aware of the various faults, I might find it OK. Then again, with it being basically a Deltic and me being something of Deltic nut it might well irritate me intensly and end up on Ebay and I'll spend the cash on the layout and finish my Silver Fox effort. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
neal Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Could it be the lack of cab taper (and potentially wide nose) are to accommodate the bogies and wheels set within the body sides. As mentioned, the side-on view does look excellent compared to the Bachmann Deltic and 37, perhaps this is what Heljan consider to be the lesser of two evils. The Howes image - http://www.howesmodels.co.uk/admin/products/HuFjCA95/IMGP4914.JPG does make it look fat at the cab ends. It will be interesting to get the scale on the real model when it lands, till then judgement is reserved. N Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEngineShed Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Could it be the lack of cab taper (and potentially wide nose) are to accommodate the bogies and wheels set within the body sides. If they made that design compromise, it would have been based on the 7mm Deltic, because it appears that's where the Lack Of Taper (LOT) started. Based on Heljan's past OO locomotive designs, I fail to see how LOT could be a factor in the smaller locomotive... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltic21 Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Sean is right as far as I'm aware, the bodyshell used for DP2 was purloined from approximatly no.17 on the production line. The exact reasons are lost to time, weather it was down to the cancellation of no.23 or EE simply built another shell which would of been simple enough with all the jigs and ,materials on hand for the D9000 production run which was ongoing. Profile and shape wise it is the same as a Type 5, no question, although alot of internal mods were made to the floor to accomodate the larger and heavier 16CSVT setup. DP2 was created from a partially built Deltic body, possibly destined to be D9018, but D9021 has been mentioned. There is absolutely no reason to think that the whole cab and nose are is any different between a Deltic and DP2. Such a shame Heljan have screwed this up, but at least i have the Silver Fox/Bachmann hybrid to fall back on!! - Thanks P.o.D for the inspiration!!! Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Such a shame Heljan have screwed this up Not so much a case of 'I come to bury Caesar not to praise him,' as 'I come to bury Caesar - whether he's even dead I don't know yet for sure...' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluex5 Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Not so much a case of 'I come to bury Caesar not to praise him,' as 'I come to bury Caesar - whether he's even dead I don't know yet for sure...' The faults are there, and pretending that somehow they are not seems perverse. Being that we are at the painted sample stage I can't see the issues suddenly dissapearing overnight, being that the faults with the Western were spotted at the tooling stage and yet were perpetuated in the production models. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 The faults are there, and pretending that somehow they are not seems perverse. Being that we are at the painted sample stage I can't see the issues suddenly dissapearing overnight, being that the faults with the Western were spotted at the tooling stage and yet were perpetuated in the production models. I'm not pretending anything; whether I seem perverse or not is a relative question (and not for this forum)*. I haven't seen the device personally, but nor do I have any evidence that many contributors to this thread have seen the painted samples at recent exhibitions either. I simply question whether it's valid or dignified to almost gleefully jump on a bandwagon of awarding the model 2012's Golden Pup before they have reached a judgement by and for themselves. * pedantic, that I'll readily admit to Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltic21 Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I'm not pretending anything; whether I seem perverse or not is a relative question (and not for this forum)*. I haven't seen the device personally, but nor do I have any evidence that many contributors to this thread have seen the painted samples at recent exhibitions either. I simply question whether it's valid or dignified to almost gleefully jump on a bandwagon of awarding the model 2012's Golden Pup before they have reached a judgement by and for themselves. * pedantic, that I'll readily admit to I applaud Heljan for going for this model, and yes we are still looking at painted samples, but has been said already it is highly unlikely that these profile issues will be corrected. If they are, then i am sure that it will be a wonderful model and quite possible the best loco of this year. However, based on previous releases (and the fact that the 7mm Deltic has many faults) i have my reservations. From a personal point of view, i have a full fleet of Bachmann Deltics and to have a mis-shaped DP2 would make it stand out like a sore thumb, so i will have to proceed with my alternative plan - granted this may leave me a hell of a task, and all options will be thought through, but whichever way i go, i will have a model which will have the correct profile and more importantly (to my mind) will fit in with the rest of my locos. Finally, i don't think the majority of posters to this topic are "gleefully jump on a bandwagon of awarding the model 2012's Golden Pup before they have reached a judgement by and for themselves" (i may well be wrong!) but i think that people see this as yet another missed opportuntiy. The model could well have been up with the standards set by DP1, but IMHO will sit somewhere near the Heljan 86. I hope to be proved wrong............................. Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon020 Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Rob, unfortunately, I don't think you'll be proved wrong though. How goes the detail conversions to the 55 fleet btw? Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltic21 Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Rob, unfortunately, I don't think you'll be proved wrong though. How goes the detail conversions to the 55 fleet btw? Jon the work is on hold at the moment mate, but soon to restart as i am looking at a month OOS with a traction motor fault! (keyhole surgery on my knee) Looks like i now have a Silver Bachmann Fox DP2 to sort too!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 the work is on hold at the moment mate, but soon to restart as i am looking at a month OOS with a traction motor fault! (keyhole surgery on my knee) Looks like i now have a Silver Bachmann Fox DP2 to sort too!!! Another lamb to the slaughter eh Rob? You're obviously as mad as me, but it's looking like the best way to get a uniform fleet at the moment. I too hope the production run have the roof profile corrected. I think Chard is right with his comments re this, and we should wait and see, but past experience with Heljan doesn't fill folk with hope I guess. I'll be with you all the way with your conversion though, as long as you post some progress reports of course. Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrushVeteran Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 A relatively minor issue I know but I do wish Heljan could get the headcode font right; they were competely wrong on Kestrel, Lion and the Baby Deltic and they are again a mile out on DP2. I know they can be replaced but it's a shame when one of the easiest things to get right, isn't. Otherwise I do like it and will be buying one of each. The headcode font will be correct on the production releases. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltic21 Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Another lamb to the slaughter eh Rob? You're obviously as mad as me, but it's looking like the best way to get a uniform fleet at the moment. I too hope the production run have the roof profile corrected. I think Chard is right with his comments re this, and we should wait and see, but past experience with Heljan doesn't fill folk with hope I guess. I'll be with you all the way with your conversion though, as long as you post some progress reports of course. Cheers. Sean. Yes Sean i must be mad!! I was planning to go down the transplanted cab route, but after reading your posts, i'm not too sure now. Still think i'll go this way due to the large amount of work on the roof using the Deltic body. Will be searching eBay for a cheap donor 50 vey soon!! Any tips will be gratefully recieved!! rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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