D605Eagle Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 You've seen the pictures. You haven't seen the model. Just sayin'... Dave. Oh dear me. If I HAD seen it and was convinced it was wrong, I would say "it is wrong. are you sure you want to buy it?" BUT what I did say was "dont you think the cabs are wrong" ie asking his oppinion on the subject, and then saying from advice I had recieved and from the pictures I had seen that just and only just take a look yourself before you order. Just a simple bit of cautious advice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Ok. Nobody's forcing anybody to buy one and I may have taken your suggestion out of context. Long experience of new diesel releases has given me a hard-wired gag reflex to non-specific observations of the 'just looks wrong' variety. I just prefer a little harder standard of evidence, that's all. It's a shame if you find it a disappointment but what your eye sees is what your eye sees and you have to judge it on that. I personally don't get hung up on minor issues, particularly in the face of major offsetting factors as in this case where the model's stance fairly conveys the weight and physical presence of a 100 odd ton diesel. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluex5 Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Anybody noticed the very nice 'sit' of the model? Dave. Yes, and it's one of the reasons I'm annoyed by the shape issues. The ride height and "stance" is spot on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Well, as long as the positives are taken into account then there's no problem with a balanced appraisal based on first hand evidence. This model obviously means a lot to many people so they need good, clear facts about the strengths and weaknesses so they can make a properly informed choice whether or not to purchase. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigherb Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Well, as long as the positives are taken into account then there's no problem with a balanced appraisal based on first hand evidence. Dave. Something sadly lacking in this thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Something sadly lacking in this thread. Lets try and sort that then Herb. Firstly, I'll say that I'm sure there are folk out there who know more about this loco than I do, BUT, I have spent the last two years researching this loco to make an accurate model before I was aware Heljan were going to produce theirs. In doing so, I have seen and purchased a number of books, photo's and diagrams, most of which, due to copyright cannot be reproduced here. What I'm saying is I'm not "the" expert, but maybe "an" expert if thats not too arrogant? I actually only have two faults which I consider major enough to talk about. The taper of the cab roof which results in the windscreen shape being wrong. I can't understand those who are defending this or making excuses for this. What I can understand is those who are being sensible and are accepting this as a compromise. Secondly, the aluminium detail around the windscreen and headcode box is too heavy but is easily resolved using Shawplan replacement parts, so not really an issue as such. OK, positively, the ride height is awesome and as Dave says, makes the loco look 100 tonnes. The best bit for me is the different roof panels. In the green, you get the original panels with the lifting eyes in the centre, whereas with the Deltic livery, you get the replacement riveted centre panels. I've said it before and it rather contradicts my comment above, but this demonstrates that Heljan have done "some" research into this loco. I also like the correct shade of green on the solebar of this version which was different to the Deltics. On another plus, from the photo's, the centre bit looks spot on. The important exhaust on the roof is present and appears now to be in the correct place and the rest, well, if I had to find something, maybe a set of Shawplan engine room window frames? So, there you are, an honest opinion from "an" expert. Ok maybe an arrogant expert but there you go. In honesty, I cancelled my order ages ago because of the cab faults but the reality is, if you don't have the skills to cut and shut, this at the moment is the only option and I fully understand those that buy for this reason. Can they stem the excitement and wait to see if Dapol take up the model? How long is a piece of string and how long can excitement be contained? We've still not seen the finished production model..... Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Sean, there's no doubt in my mind that when you say you think one way or the other about the model, and its accuracies, your word is sound. I have read the whole of your thread and completely understand your point of your view. In fact I'll happily support your thoughts on the cab, because I share your feelings that it's not quite right but where we differ, we do so understanding each other's point of view. What I take issue with is the jump to "Dapol may do it" by a selection of posters here, some actively trying to encourage it. I think whilst it's absolutely necessary, acceptable, and legitimate to critique pre-production models and make the manufacturer aware of the discrepancies, I find it in bad taste to even debate "who should do one next" when the first production model is not even on the shelves yet. There seems to be a very real (and for me, unpalatable) desire to undermine a model which to all intents and purposes, is an extreme leap of faith for any manufacturer (unlike, say, the 4VEP). Bachmann have long had the Deltic chassis but would they have done either DP1 or DP2 without prompting from the NRM in the former? I agree that we should have a reasonable debate on the pros and cons of the pre-production model, and where possible - as you are doing, Sean - finding middle ground. But do we not think that calling actively for Dapol to make a DP2 model is at this point in time, distasteful, given no production models of the Heljan DP2 are as yet on the shelves? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianwales Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Hi all At the end of the day a model has only to satisfy its owner, I will be buying the HJ one, because 1. I have been waiting a long time for a model of DP2 and 2. I don't have the modelling skills to modify another model and get it to the standard that won't stick out like a sore thumb on the layout, as will a lot of others while people like Sean will go down the "modification" route to get their model of DP2. the beauty of a thread like this is we can all air our views and be made aware of a models shortcomngs, and then each be happy with our decision and the others will respect whatever route has been taken to obtain a particular model. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Oops. S.A.C. is quite right re my Dapol comment. Just to clarify that part, I was trying to convey that my observations are based on the pre production model which I saw at Warley. We should really wait in hope that the production run is an improvement on this one and if not, it appears Dapol have the OPTION of restarting their project. In short, we should wait and see, and if all's well, the wait won't be too long before we see the final Heljan product. I'm not suggesting we should poo poo the Heljan one in the vain hope that Dapol will take up the challenge, that would be wrong. It's a classic case of typed words sounding great inside my head. You should see some of the texts I send my Mum!..... Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 If you look at the pictures in post 236 you can see that a deltic tapers in from the back of the cab all the way to the nose. Look at the way the top of the cabside windows (and the paint) taper in and that continues all the way to the nose-end. The fact you can see the side windows (and nose side grilles) means it HAS to be tapered in otherwise it would be impossible to see them. The rest of the problems stem from this lack of taper because the whole of the front is now too fat. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
59205 Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I saw it in Glasgow and i must admit i did like it. Think i'll still be buying one in any event. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasslands Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Sean, there's no doubt in my mind that when you say you think one way or the other about the model, and its accuracies, your word is sound. I have read the whole of your thread and completely understand your point of your view. In fact I'll happily support your thoughts on the cab, because I share your feelings that it's not quite right but where we differ, we do so understanding each other's point of view. What I take issue with is the jump to "Dapol may do it" by a selection of posters here, some actively trying to encourage it. I think whilst it's absolutely necessary, acceptable, and legitimate to critique pre-production models and make the manufacturer aware of the discrepancies, I find it in bad taste to even debate "who should do one next" when the first production model is not even on the shelves yet. There seems to be a very real (and for me, unpalatable) desire to undermine a model which to all intents and purposes, is an extreme leap of faith for any manufacturer (unlike, say, the 4VEP). Bachmann have long had the Deltic chassis but would they have done either DP1 or DP2 without prompting from the NRM in the former? I agree that we should have a reasonable debate on the pros and cons of the pre-production model, and where possible - as you are doing, Sean - finding middle ground. But do we not think that calling actively for Dapol to make a DP2 model is at this point in time, distasteful, given no production models of the Heljan DP2 are as yet on the shelves? Have been trying to find a way of describing what has been bugging me about this thread for the past couple of days re the Dapol and Heljan dp2. Well done that man. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffles Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Just to clarify, this is a small plastic train we are discussing here? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I made an observation which you chose to take as an insult. It was not intended as such. If you do not have the maturity to accept this that is your problem. I do not wish to waste any more electrons on the matter and it's obviously tarnishing the thread so I'll leave you to play the victim if you want to. Perhaps this would be a good moment for some mod attention if you're not prepared to leave things be. I bid you goodnight. Two bass drums and a cymbal fell off a cliff. B'doom, Tsssh! Dave. PS just noted the deletions, Mods. Feel free to delete this one if you feel it appropriate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D605Eagle Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 hee hee hee now that is funny. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 im not sure is this shot of DP2 at Liverpool lime street has been posted in this thread already but here it is.. http://www.flickr.com/photos/13488136@N02/4250671180/in/faves-64588289@N06/ Im thinking on getting one but havent decided just yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 edit that, ive just pre ordered the earlier green version well it did run into Liverpool. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan452 Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 im not sure is this shot of DP2 at Liverpool lime street has been posted in this thread already but here it is.. http://www.flickr.co...s-64588289@N06/ 'English Electric test bed loco DP2 stands at Liverpool Lime st, late fifties, early sixties' Im thinking on getting one but havent decided just yet. This can't be the late fifties as the locomtive in question hadn't been built then! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffles Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 The picture here is interesting... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltic21 Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 The picture here is interesting... Goes to provide further evidence that the cabside profile is wrong Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Bob Reid Posted March 8, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 8, 2012 Goes to provide further evidence that the cabside profile is wrong Are you sure Deltic 21? - On the right hand shot, if you follow a line along the top of the engine compartment bodylights, the side appears to slope inwards to the nose from a point behind the cab.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
00ERmissus Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Are you sure Deltic 21? - On the right hand shot, if you follow a line along the top of the engine compartment bodylights, the side appears to slope inwards to the nose from a point behind the cab.... You beat me to it, Bob. I admit I have only seen this model from a few photos and I am still undecided about whether it will work for me but looking at the above link, the body shell on the right (later version) does look like it tapers in from the back of the cab. Maybe again it’s a misleading camera angle, or it possibly doesn’t taper enough but there’s something there that needs closer inspection. Now where did I put my specs…….? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Are you sure Deltic 21? - On the right hand shot, if you follow a line along the top of the engine compartment bodylights, the side appears to slope inwards to the nose from a point behind the cab.... I just ran a rule along the rainstrip above the cantrail grilles, Bob - the cab roof does taper away inboard. Interesting photo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Just proves you need to be pretty careful with photos, but in the absence of a real DP2, I guess it's all we've got. Still quite fancy one in spite of the lack of Waverley relevance, it's that hunkered down look that's really flicking my switch! Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon020 Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Goes to provide further evidence that the cabside profile is wrong Actually Rob, this issue just gets curioser and curiouser. Whilst previously shown shots do suggest it's parallel, as indeed the shot of the early gree one does, the two-tone with syp does seem to have a bit of a taper in. I was looking at the lower edge of the side screen, and it does look as though it tapers. But, possibly the taper isn't enough of a taper. Goes to show, we're all going to need to see one of these in the flesh...OR, perhaps someone can get someone to take a plan view, not too close up (otherwise it'll distort) but maybe this will show whether there's any taper or not. A similar view of the O class 55 might be useful as a comparison... Wouldn't it be nice if it was better than we thought ... but otherwise, we'll all have to wait and see one and then make our own decisions. Well done to Raffles for finding the link. Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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