Removed a/c Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Can you drill fine holes and use metal rods? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edward66 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 What about the adhesive plumbers use to join PVC pipe? Edward Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edward66 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Further to my previous post, the most popular brand of PVC adhesive has the following active ingredients: Tetrahydrofuran [THF] 40%, Methyl ethyl ketone [MEK] 30% Acetone 20% THF is the most toxic ingredient so you have to be careful but plumbers often splash it about willy nilly and seem to survive. Most popular brand I believe is Oatey. I imagine it would bond to styrene too. Edward Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) Another idea for you. Take a slice out of the PVC pipe at the point where it passes through the styrene ring, and replace with a piece of 40mm OD styrene tube to give you a PVC/Styrene/PVC sandwich. Next insert a piece of PVC into the PVC pipe so that it passes through the styrene tube and glue the PVC "inner" to the PVC pipe to reinforce your PVC/Styrene/PVC sandwich with a PVC core. Now you can glue the styrene ring to the styrene tube. This way you re not depending on glue to bond the styrene ring to the PVC pipe. You'll have bonded styrene to styrene and the styrene tube in the sandwich is held in place pyhsically by the PVC pipe above and below and the PVC core connects the two pieces of PVC pipe. Edited August 21, 2014 by GoingUnderground Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Heggs Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share Posted August 22, 2014 Further to my previous post, the most popular brand of PVC adhesive has the following active ingredients: Tetrahydrofuran [THF] 40%, Methyl ethyl ketone [MEK] 30% Acetone 20% THF is the most toxic ingredient so you have to be careful but plumbers often splash it about willy nilly and seem to survive. Most popular brand I believe is Oatey. I imagine it would bond to styrene too. Edward Hi, Edward The PVC adhesive does work, but is far too agressive, leaving the styrene all distorted Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Heggs Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share Posted August 22, 2014 Another idea for you. Take a slice out of the PVC pipe at the point where it passes through the styrene ring, and replace with a piece of 40mm OD styrene tube to give you a PVC/Styrene/PVC sandwich. Next insert a piece of PVC into the PVC pipe so that it passes through the styrene tube and glue the PVC "inner" to the PVC pipe to reinforce your PVC/Styrene/PVC sandwich with a PVC core. Now you can glue the styrene ring to the styrene tube. This way you re not depending on glue to bond the styrene ring to the PVC pipe. You'll have bonded styrene to styrene and the styrene tube in the sandwich is held in place pyhsically by the PVC pipe above and below and the PVC core connects the two pieces of PVC pipe. Hi, Keith If I could obtain styrene tube here, I would use it for the whole pier. All the lower part of the pier/tube also has to be covered with 5 thou styrene panels to represent the cast iron panels of the pier. Scoring the PVC tube doesn't work so well Will be visiting a few local plumbing suppliers this morning to try and source ABS tube Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Heggs Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share Posted August 22, 2014 Can you drill fine holes and use metal rods? Hi, No problem drilling the holes or inserting fine metal rods, but the styrene wrapping is 10 & 20 thou at the upper level, and 5 thou over the whole of the lower part of the tube. Metal rods would not help in this situation Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted August 22, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 22, 2014 I think you have hit the nail on the head anything that will fix the PVC is too strong for styrene. ABS is probably better although it still needs something stronger than MEK . C+L sell Butanone to fix ABS chairs. Plumbers will probably stock ABS in the UK it is almost universally used by the trade. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 (edited) Hi, Keith If I could obtain styrene tube here, I would use it for the whole pier. All the lower part of the pier/tube also has to be covered with 5 thou styrene panels to represent the cast iron panels of the pier. Scoring the PVC tube doesn't work so well Will be visiting a few local plumbing suppliers this morning to try and source ABS tube Ron Ron, If you can buy thin plasticard strips or sheet locally, then that is all you need to create the styrene tube or open ended cylinder. That's why I said tube, not pipe. Create the tube by winding the plasticard around a former, say a piece of pipe so that you end up with a laminated tube of 40mm OD, and apply your chosen styrene solvent to the ends to hold it closed. You'll find that a couple of turns of styrene sheet soon become remarkably rigid and load bearing. If you're not sure about that just roll up a piece of paper into a cylinder, stick it closed with some sellotape and then press on the ends. You'll find that it is remarkably strong. You could create an entire pier the same way, and do without the PVC pipe completely, except it might be somewhat cumbersome to make. You might be able to make it esier to fabricate by warming the styrene sheet to soften it and then bending it round the former and leaving it to cool before applying the styrene solvent. However creating the complete pier out of your fabricated styrene tubes would then solve your next problem of getting the styrene cladding to stick to the PVC. Or you could scribe the panels straight on the styrene tube, which would also help disguise the seam. No more searching for PVC to styrene bonding agent. Edited August 22, 2014 by GoingUnderground Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted August 22, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 22, 2014 As an addendum to that would be to use a variation of the fabricators method, which would be to make a styrene pipe a couple thickness smaller than the final O/D by wrapping round a suitable sized PVC pipe and use the warm water to soften it. Then add a strip down the inside of the seam as a butt strap. then roll up another pipe and laminate to the outside of your first one making sure that the seam is at least 90 degrees around from the first seam and then finally add another lamination to get you to the required O/D. Any number of odd number laminations can be added as required, this ensures you will have a smooth exterior to your pipe. Definitions Tube. A tube is a seamless extrusion Pipe. A pipe is a tube with a seam IE. it is rolled from a piece of flat material and joined along the resulting seam usually a weld. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Heggs Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share Posted August 22, 2014 I think you have hit the nail on the head anything that will fix the PVC is too strong for styrene. ABS is probably better although it still needs something stronger than MEK . C+L sell Butanone to fix ABS chairs. Plumbers will probably stock ABS in the UK it is almost universally used by the trade. Don Hi, Don Butanone is the same solvent as MEK. I know ABS is quite common in the UK, however in Spain it is almost impossible to obtain, PVC is the common plastic material for all rigid plumbing tube Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Heggs Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share Posted August 22, 2014 Ron, If you can buy thin plasticard strips or sheet locally, then that is all you need to create the styrene tube or open ended cylinder. That's why I said tube, not pipe. Create the tube by winding the plasticard around a former, say a piece of pipe so that you end up with a laminated tube of 40mm OD, and apply your chosen styrene solvent to the ends to hold it closed. You'll find that a couple of turns of styrene sheet soon become remarkably rigid and load bearing. If you're not sure about that just roll up a piece of paper into a cylinder, stick it closed with some sellotape and then press on the ends. You'll find that it is remarkably strong. You could create an entire pier the same way, and do without the PVC pipe completely, except it might be somewhat cumbersome to make. You might be able to make it esier to fabricate by warming the styrene sheet to soften it and then bending it round the former and leaving it to cool before applying the styrene solvent. However creating the complete pier out of your fabricated styrene tubes would then solve your next problem of getting the styrene cladding to stick to the PVC. Or you could scribe the panels straight on the styrene tube, which would also help disguise the seam. No more searching for PVC to styrene bonding agent. As an addendum to that would be to use a variation of the fabricators method, which would be to make a styrene pipe a couple thickness smaller than the final O/D by wrapping round a suitable sized PVC pipe and use the warm water to soften it. Then add a strip down the inside of the seam as a butt strap. then roll up another pipe and laminate to the outside of your first one making sure that the seam is at least 90 degrees around from the first seam and then finally add another lamination to get you to the required O/D. Any number of odd number laminations can be added as required, this ensures you will have a smooth exterior to your pipe. Definitions Tube. A tube is a seamless extrusion Pipe. A pipe is a tube with a seam IE. it is rolled from a piece of flat material and joined along the resulting seam usually a weld. Hi, I am quite familiar with producing pipes for viaduct piers - see post #145 which details the construction of elliptical piers for the Cornbrook #2 viaduct It would have been an advantage to use 40mm dia tube, instead of having to construct the pipes first However, pipe construction is going to have to be undertaken Thanks for all your suggestions Cheers Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Sorry, didn't mean to cause offence. I hadn't seen post 145 as i only recently came across your thread. I explained the construction in case I hadn't made myself clear. When it comes to definitions, in my experience the metal bashing industry tends calls hollow metal rod made by rolling flat material with a welded seam tube not pipe. Tube is often structural, able to support itself and items placed upon it. Pipe is the name given to anything specifically designed to carry liquids or gases. Pipe usually needs support as it is not inteded to support anything, often not even its own weight. The wall thickness of pipe is often very thin compared to the diameter, as it is simply intended to stop the material within escaping, and so the wall thickness will be governed by the internal pressure, not the external load. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Heggs Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share Posted August 22, 2014 Sorry, didn't mean to cause offence. I hadn't seen post 145 as i only recently came across your thread. I explained the construction in case I hadn't made myself clear. When it comes to definitions, in my experience the metal bashing industry tends calls hollow metal rod made by rolling flat material with a welded seam tube not pipe. Tube is often structural, able to support itself and items placed upon it. Pipe is the name given to anything specifically designed to carry liquids or gases. Pipe usually needs support as it is not inteded to support anything, often not even its own weight. The wall thickness of pipe is often very thin compared to the diameter, as it is simply intended to stop the material within escaping, and so the wall thickness will be governed by the internal pressure, not the external load. Sorry, none intended, and none taken The PVC/ABS pipe usage will be dispensed with, as it is causing too much trouble for such a small job Have produced the lower part of the pier tube up to the first ring. Material is 153mm x 305mm 10 thou styrene sheet rolled, laminated and fixed with MEK. Additional 20 thou laminations (17mm, 6mm and 5mm deep) fixed at the upper end, and finished with the 56mm OD x 40 thou ring - awaits the moulding clay finish Sorry, picture quality is poor The next 39mm high tube section with the decorative detailing will follow Cheers Ron 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Hello Ron, what about good fashioned two part epoxy? OzzyO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Heggs Posted August 23, 2014 Author Share Posted August 23, 2014 Hello Ron, what about good fashioned two part epoxy? OzzyO. Hi, Ozzy Definitely do the job, but a bit too thick for this particular use, and wouldn't flow like solvent Cheers Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Heggs Posted August 23, 2014 Author Share Posted August 23, 2014 Two piers now laminated from styrene sheet, with the upper 39mm extensions and square plates ready for the decorative detailing - ... two more to build, and then decorate/finish 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted August 23, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 23, 2014 Hi Ron It looks like you've over come, the problem of the pvc pipe. A smashing looking pair of piers, I can't wait for the next installment. SS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Heggs Posted August 24, 2014 Author Share Posted August 24, 2014 Completed the two styrene piers up to the deck level, and managed to resurrect two PVC/Styrene piers with a little judicious internal bracing The two piers with the tie beam in place - these piers are located at position AA on the viaduct - will be painted before they are located and fixed on the layout Close-up of the pier/tie beam assembly A temporary assembly of the first two viaduct sections with the two AA piers and X pier in their nominated positions. The two other piers which will be used in location BB are placed in temporary support locations at either end X pier is placed on a 57mm lift to imitate the differing ground level conditions that exist between the piers at the actual locations Views under the viaduct deck - The tie beam in these two views had not yet been fixed between the two piers Before the upper castellated decorative pier sections are built, the tie beam for the piers at BB will be built, which will enable the viaduct to fixed on the layout. The upper pier sections can be fixed later 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted August 25, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 25, 2014 Hi Ron Absolutely magnificent, I'm glad you could salvage the earlier pvc piers. Will this structure undergo the usual proof testing before fitting to the layout? Cheers SS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Heggs Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 Hi Ron Absolutely magnificent, I'm glad you could salvage the earlier pvc piers. Will this structure undergo the usual proof testing before fitting to the layout? Cheers SS Hi, SS Thanks for your comments The viaduct deck/span structure underwent testing 22 August 2011 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/28293-manchester-central-clc-gn-warehouses-castlefield-viaducts/page-27&do=findComment&comment=469723. Was that it that long ago - time flies when your enjoying yourself Unfortunately, once the overhead tie bracings were fixed in place, the location of beer cans could no longer be accommodated in the same way However, another viaduct deck/span section and piers will be required, before the removable section into the garden is built - definitely more tests to come Cheers Ron 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Heggs Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 Constructed the Piers BB tie beam, and temporarily located all the viaduct sections and piers on the layout to check levels, etc. - Tie beam placed but not fixed Piers need plumbing vertically All three viaducts visible here. On the right is the opening into the garden, and the available space to fit another viaduct section approx. 500/600mm long. The foamboard pieces indicate the level of the canal wharves above the water level/baseboard level MSJ&AR Salford branch/Carriage sidings branch passes under the Castlefield and Cornbrook Viaducts The view under the viaducts and thro' towards the loco shed approx. 5m away 19 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
knobhead Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Magnificent! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmudriver Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Stunning!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted August 26, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 26, 2014 This is some pretty impressive stuff, more so once trains actually start running on this project. SS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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