Bradfield, Gloucester Square BR 1962 ish

[lankyphil]

British Railways Past & Present No. 2 (South & West Yorkshire) has a photo of an 03 & runner acting as station pilot at Bradford Exchange in 1979.

 

 

03 371 Bradford 21/02/1981

 

 

Guess that a runner in this condition makes it a bit hard to hide pick-ups though!

[clecklewyke]

Hi. It's good to see another model based on Bradford. I am building an imaginary station at the other end of town, at the end of a non-existent branch of the LNWR. Your station is very impressive and it will be even better when the overall roof is built, but I wonder how you will uncouple under that roof? What kind of couplings do you use? I am modelling in P4 with Alex Jacksons.

[TheLaird]

I think the way you are working it is totally credible and makes a lot of sense - stations didn't have pilot locos if the work could be done more cheaply in another way and pilots had begun to disappear from places where there was little work by this period although Regional practice varied so it is always worth checking out the situation at a similar prototype - if you can find one - in the period you are modelling (which you appear to have done already).

My only question would be for how long is that diesel being left standing on the coaches and is it still manned? The reason being that if it was to be shutdown and the crew leave it then the siding is not a suitable or acceptable place (as things were back then) for prepping the loco when it is re-manned. However as it would remain manned during the Carriage Warming Period perhaps a diagrammer somewhere is taking a shortcut and leaving it manned all year round or it just works out that the crew's hours leave it that way and it's easier to leave them with the loco: it would incidentally be double-manned on safety grounds under the 1957 Manning Agreement so no need for it to be shut down for the Driver to take his break - clever stuff modelling prototypical operating.

 

Thanks Mike, it is great to receive some prototypical details on the way things were worked on the real railway. To answer your questions, the loco arrives in the sidings at about 2 am and its next move is just after 6 am, so a 4hour layover. As you say though, in the winter it would be needed a little earlier for steam heating the stock. You say the siding is not an acceptable place for restarting, could you explain a bit more and suggest where would be suitable - station platform, centre road or maybe the dock at the end of the headshunt??

 

John E.

[TheLaird]

Hi. It's good to see another model based on Bradford. I am building an imaginary station at the other end of town, at the end of a non-existent branch of the LNWR. Your station is very impressive and it will be even better when the overall roof is built, but I wonder how you will uncouple under that roof? What kind of couplings do you use? I am modelling in P4 with Alex Jacksons.

 

 

Sounds interesting. have you posted any pics or details on RMWeb?

 

Re couplings, I am using spratt & winkle with fixed permanent magnets. Some details on this have been covered earlier in the thread. The roof will only be partially glazed over the platforms as was prototype practice following the wartime replacements. The roof is also removeable!!

[Baby Deltic]

Thanks Mike, it is great to receive some prototypical details on the way things were worked on the real railway. To answer your questions, the loco arrives in the sidings at about 2 am and its next move is just after 6 am, so a 4hour layover. As you say though, in the winter it would be needed a little earlier for steam heating the stock. You say the siding is not an acceptable place for restarting, could you explain a bit more and suggest where would be suitable - station platform, centre road or maybe the dock at the end of the headshunt??

 

John E.

 

Its strange how practices vary in different eras/areas. I can remember visiting St Pancras frequently in the early 80's and there was often a 45 idling on the stop blocks of platform one with no crew in sight. Maybe they had left the controller in EO and removed the key?

[TheLaird]

Thanks to all those who suggested the 03 and runner. In model form I can see the purpose of the runner for extra pickups, but what was the real purpose? Looking at the photo of the 03 at Exchange, it does not appear to be carrying any tools etc.

 

Having done some more research, it would appear that a small no of 03'swere allocated to Manningham in the mid sixties, but no photo's of them or 08's on passenger shunts at Forster Sq. From photo's the loco's used were the Class 3 &4 Tanks, Fowler 4MT's and even a photo of a Jubilee shunting in the East sidings! but that was 67. I can only surmise that the reason for this is the steam heating issue. The Class 4 tanks were also used extensively on the main passenger turns to Leeds.

 

John E.

[Baby Deltic]

Thanks to all those who suggested the 03 and runner. In model form I can see the purpose of the runner for extra pickups, but what was the real purpose? Looking at the photo of the 03 at Exchange, it does not appear to be carrying any tools etc.

 

John E.

 

 

The runner was to increase the number of wheelsets across the track circuits to ensure they operated correctly. Sometimes small 0-6-0 shunters would disappear off the signalling displays.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks Mike, it is great to receive some prototypical details on the way things were worked on the real railway. To answer your questions, the loco arrives in the sidings at about 2 am and its next move is just after 6 am, so a 4hour layover. As you say though, in the winter it would be needed a little earlier for steam heating the stock. You say the siding is not an acceptable place for restarting, could you explain a bit more and suggest where would be suitable - station platform, centre road or maybe the dock at the end of the headshunt??

John E.

 

 

For steam pre-heating you would want it on all night (unless it's a warm night) - I realise it's only a short train but when heating a 10 coach set on a shore supply or of a loco they would be on steam all night to make sure the whole train was warmed through.

For a full prep on most BR diesel locos, but particularly on mainline locos, there needs to be a clear walking space all the way round the loco at ground level with proper underfoot conditions, ideally lineside lighting (that was frequently observed in the breach), and a safe working distance from other lines (ideally a 9 or 10 foot interval and definitely a 10 ft interval from a running line). Without checking the time times - I have a list somewhere - you could reckon on about 20 minutes to prep a Type 4 loco. You would only seem to have one suitable spot and that might be in the way of other moves so the alternative is not to shut down the loco - as BD observed in his comment about practice at St. Pancras (below) in that case the loco has not been shut down so it couldn't be 'disposed' so it therefore didn't need a full prep, the crew coming on would be booked to 'Take to loco prepared' - which also saved time of course.

 

Its strange how practices vary in different eras/areas. I can remember visiting St Pancras frequently in the early 80's and there was often a 45 idling on the stop blocks of platform one with no crew in sight. Maybe they had left the controller in EO and removed the key?

 

 

The runner was to increase the number of wheelsets across the track circuits to ensure they operated correctly. Sometimes small 0-6-0 shunters would disappear off the signalling displays.

 

Exactly - a particular problem on some ER signalling schemes was that there could be either short track circuits or in some instances short stretches which were not track circuited so the runner in effect extended the wheelbase of the Class 03.

[woodenhead]

Funny how real life and modelling sometime collide - runner wagons to improve electrical connectivity.

 

There were issues with Pacers and 158s in their early days not always activating track circuits resulting in interesting lash ups with 156s until they could solve the problem once and for all.

 

How did the stationary engines work for heating trains in coach sidings, was it one train at a time or did they provide steam to several trains at once because if it could take 10 hours to heat a train then there would be a lot of cold trains.

[Dicky W]

John

 

Looking forward to seeing the layout in the flesh at Member's day. Superb modelling - love the way the light falls on the stock through the station roof.

 

Not sure if you've been approached already, but we'd love to feature it, if you're willing?

 

Richard

[flyingsignalman]

Thanks for the reply and your thoughts on operation. One of the main reasons I posted on RMWeb was to promote some discussion on the operational aspects. Not being a railwayman and with my 21st Century head on, my thoughts were that this is quite a small station, probably being run down, could a dedicated pilot be justified? Studying the WTT, workings appear to be equally balanced so that incoming Loco's would have an outward duty. This I have tried to replicate but what to do with the loco during the layover period? Steam loco's would need to visit the shed or serviceing facility and be turned etc, but the perceived advantage of Diesels was to negate this. Again the 62 WTT shows minimal LE moves and passenger Loco's were comming from Leeds!! So perhaps no local facilities for Diesels? So, instead of just leaving it ticking over in a siding or platform, it seemed like a good idea to use it for a shunt!! What do RMWebbers think?

 

One other more practical reason for using a mainline loco at exhibitions is that my 0-6-0's are not reliable enough. I hate it when they stall especially with a sound chip!! I have tried a Zimo decoder with stay alive capacitor but to no avail.( I do clean the wheels, rail and pickups regularly).

 

John E.

 

Birkenhead Woodside, my nearest main line terminus, had a steam station pilot until the end of the Paddington (and any other through) trains 7 months before it closed in November 1967. The carriage sidings were about a mile up the line so the situation is not exactly the same.

From photos a Fairburn 2-6-4t was used mostly but I remember a comment in a magazine (Model Railway Constructor, I think) that when the writer had visited there Ca1966/7 a black 5 was doing the duty.

I would think (and its only my opinion) that the diesel would work a train in and then fairly swiftly work another one out rather than being used for shunting to ensure maximum utilisation.

[TheLaird]

Some really useful and interesting prototype info is being shared by contributors, many thanks. Funny how the more answers I get just raises more questions in my head so more research needs to be done!!

 

Bradfield is of course a cut down version of Forster Sq and the timetable is much reduced from reality due to lack of platforms etc. Forster Sq certainly had a dedicated shunter/pilot into the fifties but I am not sure if the photos of Cl 4 tanks in the sixties are dedicated shunters or if they have come off passenger workings.

 

John E

[The Stationmaster]

There were issues with Pacers and 158s in their early days not always activating track circuits resulting in interesting lash ups with 156s until they could solve the problem once and for all.

How did the stationary engines work for heating trains in coach sidings, was it one train at a time or did they provide steam to several trains at once because if it could take 10 hours to heat a train then there would be a lot of cold trains.

 

Firstly heating - in a proper yard with decent stationary boilers we would have half a dozen trains on at a time although not at very high pressure. Down my local branchline there was - until it caught fire - a 'bolier van' which was a converted outside frame Siphon with a couple of (diesel loco pattern) boilers inside, possibly originally converted for boiler training?, and it heated two 12 coach sets overnight (and part of the station roof when it caught fire).

 

As far as 143s etc were concerned the reason they didn't operate track circuits very well was that the wheels tended to make very limited simultaneous contact with the track due to the suspension design with the suspension tuned to provde minimum noise and vertical pitching to the body - the answer was either to make them rougher riding by altering the spring/damping rates (unacceptable) or put on the track circuit actuators - which at first allegedly included parts made up from scrap bits of copper pipe. But fortunately the WR got rid of them before a cure was found - trouble was the ruddy things bounced back.

[TheLaird]

Firstly heating - in a proper yard with decent stationary boilers we would have half a dozen trains on at a time although not at very high pressure. Down my local branchline there was - until it caught fire - a 'bolier van' which was a converted outside frame Siphon with a couple of (diesel loco pattern) boilers inside, possibly originally converted for boiler training?, and it heated two 12 coach sets overnight (and part of the station roof when it caught fire).

 

 

 

Fascinating stuff Mike. The workings of carriage sidings does not seem to have received much coverage in the railway press, unlike freight yards etc. I assume the main roll is for storage and cleaning with the odd bit of remarshalling activity. Is there anything else that I am missing?? Where would catering vehicles be serviced and restocked?? What about minor repairs etc??

 

John E

[clecklewyke]

Sounds interesting. have you posted any pics or details on RMWeb?

 

 

 

No, I am a novice here yet but I have some details on my blog, http://clecklewyke.wordpress.com/ Not many postings recently - too busy playing trains!

 

I am also interested in correct operation, having been brought up on a diet of Peter Denny. I am modeling a slightly earlier period than you so details of diesel loco layovers are not very relevant. But I have based my timetable on the real station operation of the L&Y side of Bradford Exchange in 1958, which was published in a 1980s Model Railways. We use block bells for communication between station and fiddle yard,which sorts the men from the boys!

 

One notable feature of the 1958 operation of Bradford Exchange, which I have incorporated in the timetable, is the large number of light engine and empty coaching stock workings. Some coaches did just a single return working at peak times and most locos went back to Low Moor MPD for servicing and turning before their next turn. Very different from todays intensively worked DMUs!

 

The current plan is slightly different from that published on my blog, as I was fortunate enough to buy a ready made station which I could convert into Bradford North Western but the basic idea of a system with several locations remains. Currently we have BNW, Clecklewyke and the fiddle yard. Time is, I am afraid, being eaten away by requests to exhibit my other two layouts, Royston Vasey and Humber Dock.

[The Stationmaster]

Fascinating stuff Mike. The workings of carriage sidings does not seem to have received much coverage in the railway press, unlike freight yards etc. I assume the main roll is for storage and cleaning with the odd bit of remarshalling activity. Is there anything else that I am missing?? Where would catering vehicles be serviced and restocked?? What about minor repairs etc??

 

John E

 

John, As so often with railways it all depends ... so larger depots could undertake more serious cleaning tasks than, say, Bradfield while some places would not be doing as much as Bradfield. The lowest level of cleaning attention is, still, basically an interior sweep out, empty litter bins and replenish toilet supplies plus any extra toilet cleaning as required by circumstance but usually no more than wipeover. Cleaning then increases on largely an interval basis up to the fullest level which is monthly in most respects although some stuff such as a full exterior hand clean could be done less frequently if there was a carriage washing machine. Catering vehicles require special hygenic cleaning - involving even in the early 1980s large 'baths' of caustic soda solution in hot water and a complete strip of every removable food storage and preparation area in the car for its very own dunking followed by a hot water rinsing - obviously a specialised task requiring suitable facilities and in most places probably a specialised gang. Sleeping cars require not only cleaning but bed-making - another specialised task and a lot harder than it looks, at a depot where i worked there were tow ladies who did the sleeper bed-making and no one else was allowed to touch the beds except for one of the supervisors and someone who acted as relief for the other two.

Bradfield looks suitably equipped - apart possibly from suitable covered accommodation for staff and gear/stores to do a reasonable level of overnight interior clean plus exterior hand washing if needed (but possibly not the latter on a scheduled basis? - a full exterior hand clean on a Mk1 took about an hour including rinsing and it was very heavy work). Interior wise you are probably looking at about 20 minutes per coach, probably more with full toilet compartment cleaning - e.g toilet mirrors on a Mk 3 are allowed 2-3 minutes per toilet, cleaning the basin is a few minutes and so on. So work out how many folk you need and see how big the messroom etc needs to be As you're out of doors I doubt there'd be any use of vacuum cleaners (see below for an aside on that subject).

 

The C&W Examiner would go round each train checking mechanical etc details and he would have a small stock of spare vacuum and steam heat bags (the flexible pipes were usually called 'bags') plus other spares while an electrician would deal with lighting and electrical defects.

 

Larger passenger yards would take vehicles out for heavy maintenance or repair and also have stocks of spare vehicles in order to strengthen trains or replace cripple vehicles but smaller places such as Bradfield would only be knocking vehicles out if defects arose and wouldn't hold spares in any case although they probably would have in earlier years - especially when local services were loco hauled and formations varied on different days of the week.

 

And now a little tale about vacuum cleaners - they tended to lead a very hard life in BR use and we were always on the lookout for some decent ones. I once visited an industrial cleaning exhibition very much on the lookout as we needed a number to 'rebuild' our stock. At one stand the salesman quickly picked up our interest and as soon as he heard I was in the market for at least 8 to start with I was receiving royal attention - 'would you like a demonstration sir?' - 'yes please'; 'how many was it you said you wanted?' - 'depending on price and quality I would want at least 8 immediately we finished a trial period with a couple plus probably a further order when the rest of our existing stock pack up, say another 4'' Lots of beams and bowing and scraping follwed by 'are there any special features you would like sir?' - not really but it must be able to carry on working perfectly after being repeatedly dropped from a height of 6ft onto solid concrete' - 'pardon sir, you can't b eserious?' 'oh yes I am, some of my carriage cleaners aren't too fussy with their tools and they have a nasty habit of kicking vacuum cleaners out of a coach door when they've finished with it, so we have quite a high breakage rate'. Give the bloke his due when we did the initial trial he allowed us to shove the vacuum cleaner out of a carriage door, and it still worked - so we bought some.

[TheLaird]

Great stuff Mike, another very comprehensive reply and plenty of food for thought!! Love the tale about the vacuum cleaners, something I can relate to!!

 

John E.

[TheLaird]

I am also interested in correct operation, having been brought up on a diet of Peter Denny. I am modeling a slightly earlier period than you so details of diesel loco layovers are not very relevant. But I have based my timetable on the real station operation of the L&Y side of Bradford Exchange in 1958, which was published in a 1980s Model Railways. We use block bells for communication between station and fiddle yard,which sorts the men from the boys!

 

 

Nice web site by the way, I realised straight away that I had seen Clecklwyke before.

 

John E.

[TheLaird]

John

 

Looking forward to seeing the layout in the flesh at Member's day. Superb modelling - love the way the light falls on the stock through the station roof.

 

Not sure if you've been approached already, but we'd love to feature it, if you're willing?

 

Richard

 

 

I would of course be interested Richard, I will PM my email so we can make arrangements. John E.

[Fordy_SVMRC]

Inspirational layout operation, what other shows are you exhibiting at this year?

[TheLaird]

Inspirational layout operation, what other shows are you exhibiting at this year?

 

 

After the members day, only at Loughborough 23/24 Sept.

[Fordy_SVMRC]

After the members day, only at Loughborough 23/24 Sept.

 

I will be operating Oulton TMD @ the Loughborough show, I'll pop over for a chat.

 

Used to be a member of the Soar Valley MR club

 

Simon

[romley midland]

.

Used to be a member of the Soar Valley MR club

 

Simon

 

And always welcome back if you get the time Simon!

 

Richard

[Fordy_SVMRC]

And always welcome back if you get the time Simon!

 

Richard

 

When my daughter is older maybe I will have the time again.

 

Si

[TheLaird]

What you have all been waiting for, the final thrilling episode of a day in the life of Bradfield!! I am conscious of being repetitive so have not photographed every move, therefore some of the “eagle eyed†among you will notice trains disappearing from platforms without photographic evidence, especially the humble DMU,s. I will attempt to describe as best I can what is going on. You will recall from the last episode that we had seen off all the principal trains of the day and the station had settled down to the regular local all DMU service. The Carlisle has been covered previously so we shall fast forward to the evening for the return of the principal passenger trains of the day and departure of the evenings parcels service, all interspersed with a smattering of DMU,s.

 

 

 

It is now 5/45, the two car Derby unit that arrived into P3A at 4/50 from Keighley has taken refuge in the carriage sidings to clear the platform for the arrival of the returning Paignton, due in at 5/55.

 

 

Just after six and the Paignton has arrived into P3 behind D45. The Leeds DMU waits in P2A and just out of shot in P2B stands the DMU for Ilkley due out at 6/10. The centre road stores the loaded parcels for York and the Leeds parcels inP1. Claude Greengrass still sits on a trunk in the forlorn hope that a rich Londoner might spare him the price of a cuppa!

 

 

Around 6/30 D45 backs out into the CS reception road. The Ilkley DMU has left P2B to be replaced with the Derby unit from the CS. This formed the 6/25 to Skipton and has also departed.

 

 

Having drawn forward into the CS headshunt, D45 now propels its train into CS2 where it will be serviced overnight ready for tomorrows repeat performance.

 

 

D45 now crosses to the Up Main for its next duty.

 

 

From the UM, D45 has now backed on to the York parcels in the centre road. The Leeds DMU still ticks over patiently in P2A.