GRANBY JUNCTION - Shunting Siphons for the Up Parcels with a Manor!

[The Stationmaster]

It's an interesting area to say the very least.  I believe there were instances where 'local custom and practice' - in some cases supported by an official Instruction - allowed branch passenger trains to carry the headlamp on the lower centre lamp bracket, and it was undoubtedly done as a matter of convenience.

 

As far as auto trains were concerned the Instruction required the tail lamp on the engine to be carried at the foot of the chimney when not lit and on the buffer beam centre lamp bracket when lit but this too seems to have either been observed in the breach or there were an awful lot of lighted tail lamps running around in broad daylight away from tunnels.  There were for example a number of branch lines in the London Division of the WR where the headcode for freight trains was the light engine code.

 

I think that, again, with auto-trains what happened in practice was that the job was often done the easiest way and while it might have been supported by Instructions in some places elsewhere that wasn't necessarily the case.

[Guest 7007GreatWestern]

Thanks for clarifying that Mike. I've looked in vain for any reference to this being official GWR or WR practice. This seems to have been such a common arrangement back-in-the-day that it is often replicated on preserved railways:-

 

https://locoyard.com/2014/10/28/the-mid-hants-autumn-steam-gala-2014/115-2014-autumn-steam-gala-watercress-line-approaching-ropley-ex-gwr-14xx-class-1450-and-autocoach-w238w/

 

Whether it was within the rules, locally sanctioned or not, this was such a frequent occurrence that John could replicate this if he saw fit.

 

Andy.

[john dew]

You're a cruel man John!

 

The 14xx's are looking good and it's great that they have settled down to be 'really useful engines'.

It was surprising how many little parcels got delivered to assorted surprised relatives........all those little items where the postage to Canada would be greater than the order cost, a few pots of GWR paint and surprisingly some buffers from a supplier whose insurer forbade any transactions whatsoever with North America. I actually had to get a friend buy these for me! I guess its fear of consumer litigation rather than transit claims. I sympathise with the vendor but it does feel a bit wierd......wild west and all that!

 

Best wishes

 

John

[john dew]

Quality not quantity John

 

Glad to hear that you are vertical once more.

 

You are always good for morale Tinker....thank you. 5 quality pages by Xmas seems like a modest attainable target.

 

Actually I am semi vertical......its so hot here that a high proportion of my time seems to be spent reclining with a cooling libation.....and then there is the Rugby of course although the first test was rather disappointing

 

Best wishes

 

John

[john dew]

John, Sorry to learn of your problem. All is well now it would appear. Good. May better health remain with you.

 

And yes, I agree, the 14XX looks the part and that it runs satisfactorily is better still.

 

Always a pleasure to see the latest news of Granby. It's an impressive layout.

 

My regards,

 

Hi John

 

Thank you for your good wishes and your kind remarks about Granby........from you that is praise indeed.

 

I must say I do admire your energy in redeveloping Hintock......you put me to shame......I have some dodgy track on the branch line which I have been muttering about replacing for almost 6 months.....and keep putting off. Perhaps your example will motivate me to actually getting on with it!

 

Best wishes

 

John

[john dew]

Hello John,

 

You mention the use of lamps on auto trains. I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but in fact it was very common for auto trains to run with one lamp, bottom centre as opposed to top centre. Here are some examples from 'back-in-the-day':-

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/21899116468

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1258.htm

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/14241140946

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrswg1561.htm

 

Now under the British standard system of locomotive lamp codes, one lamp, bottom centre means "light engine or engines which may have a brake van attached". So, it is possible that the lamp positioning in those photographs is due to the firemen forgetting to reposition their lamps once coupled up to the auto coach. However, a half forgotten memory lurking in the darker recesses of my mind is telling me that on the GWR and later WR, one lamp bottom and centre could also legitimately indicate an auto train in which case the positioning of the lamps is deliberate and not an oversight.

 

So, you could have lamps bottom and centre on your 14xxs. The loco would then be completely correct when moving off shed to pick up its coach at the start of duty, correct again when running with the coach and correct again at the end of duty when running back light engine to shed. The only error would be the lamp between the loco and the coach, but since this is at buffer beam level it wouldn't be very obvious!

 

Just a thought.

 

Cheers,

 

Andy.

 

PS. I'm happy to hear from an authority on Western Region practice (e.g. Mike "The Stationmaster") to confirm whether I am correct about the lamp codes. :-)

 

 

It's an interesting area to say the very least.  I believe there were instances where 'local custom and practice' - in some cases supported by an official Instruction - allowed branch passenger trains to carry the headlamp on the lower centre lamp bracket, and it was undoubtedly done as a matter of convenience.

 

As far as auto trains were concerned the Instruction required the tail lamp on the engine to be carried at the foot of the chimney when not lit and on the buffer beam centre lamp bracket when lit but this too seems to have either been observed in the breach or there were an awful lot of lighted tail lamps running around in broad daylight away from tunnels.  There were for example a number of branch lines in the London Division of the WR where the headcode for freight trains was the light engine code.

 

I think that, again, with auto-trains what happened in practice was that the job was often done the easiest way and while it might have been supported by Instructions in some places elsewhere that wasn't necessarily the case.

 

Thanks Andy and Mike, as always, both informative and useful.

 

I had thought that the lamp central on the buffer beam was primarily post nationalisation but more recently I have .got the sense that it also happened in GWR days as well. Your posts tend to confirm that.

 

From photos I have seen, it would appear that this "short cut" was not confined to auto trains but also appeared on BSet working. Which is good news because while the white light on a loco propelling an autocoach is an irritant it is, to my mind, nowhere near as bad as the double lamping I exposed on my shot of the 58xx. Having the lamps on the buffer beam is much less obvious.

 

I guess the question I posed "which is the greater sin" was somewhat rhetorical. On Granby I have all my locos allocated with specific head codes. It gets a bit messy when something has to be reallocated*....I can never make up my mind which is the most suitable loco to be the station pilot!

 

All in all though I think its the best compromise.....no train runs without the correct code and a red lamp on the rear coach/van.......and I just turn a blind eye to all the light engines moving on and off shed.

 

*Having seen Robin's experiment on ANTB a trial of modelu3d lamps is high on my priority list

 

Best wishes from Vancouver

[gwrrob]

If you do order some Modelu lamps John they are fragile and not as hardy as the old Springside ones but their bonus is versatility in fitting and a finer handle.Buy more than you think you need.

[john dew]

                                       http://modelrailcommand.com/images/emoticons/beaver.gifhttp://modelrailcommand.com/images/emoticons/moose.gifhttp://modelrailcommand.com/images/emoticons/beaver.gif

          HAPPY   CANADA   DAY

I thought I would celebrate Canada's 150th birthday by wrapping up my 14xx posts......showing the auto train on its regular journey from Cynwyd to Brymbo Canal St Halt.


Rolling past Cynwyd coal yard
 

 

 

 

Thence past the Cynwyd goods yard

 

 

The eagle eyed will note that with headlamp and driver the train now appears to be heading back to Cynwyd http://yourmodelrailway.net/images/emoticons/icon_redface.gif......for the sake of the story just ignore it.....I rather like the shot and it shows that after 15 years I have finally got round to painting over the bell.


Having picked up the token the train now squeezes between the Creamery and Ivor Price's Woolen Mill.

 

 

 

 

 

 

and then over the Shropshire Union Canal

 

 

 

 

 

Past Richard's Wharf and into the tunnel to Bersham Colliery. Apology..... any resemblance between my place names and the area around Wrexham is quite accidental http://yourmodelrailway.net/images/emoticons/icon_lol.gif.

 

 

Hopefully the next shots from the other side of the duck under put the journey into context with the main layout.

 

 

In the foreground, on the viaduct, a BSet from Ruabon approaches Granby on the main line, while below the auto train enters Bersham tunnel which is situated below Granby Shed and Carriage sidings.

 

 

Bersham is actually a hidden kickback storage siding which enables me to put Canal St Halt in a dead corner at the entrance to the train room

 

 

1407 is now propelling the auto coach back over the locks to the Halt.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The kickback journey may appear unrealistic but I believe there were a number of precedents on the prototype. It certainly suits my purpose because it is an ideal introduction to the railway for visitors . The routine runs completely automatically and shuttles back and forth while more exotic trains are running above on the main lines

Hope you enjoyed this.....next post something completely different
 

Edited October 13, 2022 by john dew
12/10/2022 Photos

[M.I.B]

Belated Canada Day greetings.

[john dew]

Last week I promised something completely different so you may be a bit confused by yet another shot of the low level branch http://yourmodelrailway.net/images/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

 

This is one of my "mea culpa" posts. After all I have always claimed this is a warts and all thread.

The turnout in the centre was laid some 8 years ago.........before I realised the vital importance of at least 2-3 inches of straight connecting track! http://yourmodelrailway.net/images/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

 

The RH track leads to the canal bridge I showed last week. Its only used by Coal trains to and from Bersham and the Autotrain. There is an ugly jerk and wobble as these trains transit the point but provided the autocoach is propelled towards Cynwyd (as shown last week) all is well...sort of. If it is pulled however it derails. http://yourmodelrailway.net/images/emoticons/icon_twisted.gifhttp://yourmodelrailway.net/images/emoticons/icon_eek.gif.

 

Embarrassing perhaps but not really a problem until recently

With the arrival of the Hattons 14xx I no longer need to hardwire the loco to the autocoach and a very large stay alive. So now I want to reverse the train orientation so the autcoach is pulled into Cynwyd where it can be backed into the trailing bay. Between trips, as per the prototype the 14xx, can be uncoupled and shunt the yard.
 
So after 8 years of turning a blind eye.....the point has to be fixed.

 

There is also another reason for doing this

The LH branch of the turnout leads round to the other side of the layout where there are  two storage sidings under Granby station
 

 

 

Underneath the Pub and double decker buses there is a Code 100 ( insulfrog) doubleslip..........hence all the observation ports.........enabling all sorts of loco exchanges and shunting operations. It seemed like a good idea at the time but In reality it proved far too complicated under cover, particularly with a dodgy exit turnout. So the use of over 8 feet of track (x2) has been confined to a Lima Rail Car which ,fitted with a stay alive and proper bogies, will go almost anywhere!

 

Time to adopt the KISS principle.

 

Once the turnout is fixed the slip will go and I will set up a simple low  covered circuit which will add to the branch traffic even if it is roundy roundy.........fortunately I had the common sense to make the street scene moveable. http://yourmodelrailway.net/images/emoticons/icon_surprised.gif

First things first......remove a decent section of the track either side of the point

 

Watch this space for progress reports!

Meantime for something really different.

I may have mentioned that I recently had what is deemed to be a significant birthday.  My family clubbed together and bought me this rather splendid addition to Granby's LMS roster
 

 

 

The elderly split chassis LMS 4-6-0s have all been retired for some time now. After a diet of suburban tanks and a 3F at last the trainspotters at the end of platform 3 have something to get excited about:

 

 

 

Bachmann's LMS Stanier Mogul.............I guess if I have to keep waiting for a new GWR mogul this is a pretty acceptable substitute. http://yourmodelrailway.net/images/emoticons/small.gif

LMS activity at Granby is now mostly  freight and suburban services but I do run one secondary express service ....perfect for my new loco

Best wishes from Vancouver

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by john dew
12/10/2022 Photos

[brianusa]

 Hi John, looks a busy little place with lots of action and things to take in. Its a layout us tinplaters can appreciate!!

 

Brian.

[trw1089]

How I've missed Granby! For some reason I've not checked in on the various fora to see how things were going, but your recent lot of pics has given me my fix again. I don't know what it is about your layout John, maybe just the continuity of the city scenes and the grime, it all seems to fit together so well.

 

Good to see the errant point getting some attention, hopefully it will mean smoother running.

 

Take care

Tony

[john dew]

How I've missed Granby! For some reason I've not checked in on the various fora to see how things were going, but your recent lot of pics has given me my fix again. I don't know what it is about your layout John, maybe just the continuity of the city scenes and the grime, it all seems to fit together so well.

 

Good to see the errant point getting some attention, hopefully it will mean smoother running.

 

Take care

Tony

 

Hi Tony

 

Good to hear from you.

 

I am afraid you are right about grime that seems to envelope Granby. Definitely not a case of "how green was my valley"!

 

Apart, that is, from all the green shiny locos still waiting to be weathered!

 

Once I had weathered a few panniers (still a a lot to do...you can never have too many panniers ), I realised how incongruous my pristine locos looked in the middle of Granby's grime.

 

I have to say that your thread continues to be an invaluable resource for my loco weathering project  (albeit not to your standard)...... many thanks

 

Best wishes

 

John

[M.I.B]

Nice Stannier Mogul John.

 

Look forward to seeing it with less "sheen".

 

You are right - the venerable Mainline GW Mogul offering could do with being replaced.  But until there is a substitute I will retain mine and put up with them.  Because I had one of them when it was new and was very pleased - how our standards and perceptions of VFM go up in this hobby!

[john dew]

Nice Stannier Mogul John.

 

Look forward to seeing it with less "sheen".

 

You are right - the venerable Mainline GW Mogul offering could do with being replaced.  But until there is a substitute I will retain mine and put up with them.  Because I had one of them when it was new and was very pleased - how our standards and perceptions of VFM go up in this hobby!

 

Glad you like the LMS Mogul Tinker......its on the list for weathering but it is a rather long list ..........I have far too many locos!

 

I actually have two GWR split chassis moguls but one is in the workshop and the other in the display cabinet having been cannabalised to keep the other going. Sadly the pony truck on the "working" one derails on facing points all too frequently....I am not alone, there is a separate thread on the subject.

 

81C, of this parish, suggested I replace the truck with one from the SE Finecast Prairie kit. This was one of the goodies my family brought back from the UK and is now installed. There was a noticeable improvement and I was in the process of fine tuning when the plastic axle on the rear wheel went. I think I can replace it by robbing the display case loco...... but I finally saw the wood for the trees......I was spending far too much time on one marginal loco rather than weathering and operating all the other locos that run superbly..........so it is now on the might do list.

 

Meantime I content myself by looking on with envy on ANTB as Robin's Mogul trundles around Brent and hoping against hope that Bachmann will eventually announce both a new Mogul and a Manor!

 

Best wishes

[81C]

I'm please to see you had a result with th SE Finecast part.

[M.I.B]

Perhaps I need to come back over the Pond with airbrush and compressor...................and some Metcalfe buildings for you to assemble for me.

[john dew]

I'm please to see you had a result with th SE Finecast part.

I should have let you know how I got on.....I am sorry......I guess I was waiting for perfection first.......It's a huge improvement but still not 100% reliable hence the "fine tuning"..... I was adding more weight and adjusting the position when the rear axle went.

 

Now I am tempted to move it back up the list

 

Kind regards

[john dew]

To start here is a shot of the autocoach being propelled over the dodgy point........success! http://yourmodelrailway.net/images/emoticons/thumbsup1.gif

The derailing problem problem was not caused solely by the poor rail connection (now corrected). It was cleverly situated over the junction of three baseboards......none of which aligned quite as precisely as one might wish http://yourmodelrailway.net/images/emoticons/icon_redface.gif. I did mention this was one of my earlier attempts at track laying! A considerable amount of time was spent shimming and attempting to create smoother gradients.

 

 

In consequence the under board peco motor was replaced by yet another surface mounted motor......connected to a DCC Concepts polarity switcher so I could retain the existing wired up electrofrog .......I would have been infuriated if I had been forced to substitute an insulfrog turnout.

Signal Box stored in yard while track and sleepers were painted. The entire section is now ballasted but not yet PVAd. I want to give it time to settle while I try all the branch locos over both turnout directions.........so far so good but I want to run the long coal trains through the junction before finalising. There is a slight rattle and roll but nothing too horrific.......it is, after all, a hardworking secondary branch line.





Last week I mentioned the LMS Granby-Birkenhead service which has been a bit neglected of late.

Here is the three car non corridor set approaching Platform 3. Its hauled by 1202 Ivatt 2-6-2. Its an original split chassis which I have had for nearly 20 years now..........total pain to convert to DCC but a brilliant runner.

 

 

 

As a boy most of my train travelling was on the Liverpool-Southport electric line. So great excitement when twice a day the Ivatt used to haul the "London train" (a couple of caches I recall) to and from Southport to Liverpool Edgehill where it hooked up to the Lime Street-Euston train

Weathering is the hot topic of the year on Granby but I am ashamed to admit the subtle covering of dust on the Ivatt had nothing to do with me......other than neglect.

By way of contrast to the Ivatt introduced in 1946, the relief loco in the foreground is an ex Lancashire and Yorkshire 2-4-2T built between 1889 and 1911! More nostalgia one of these apparently ran on the Wirral Railway.......before coming to Canada we lived about 400 yards from the old track bed.......long since converted to the Wirral Way.  

 

 

 

 

I have to bite the bullet and paint these coach roofs......I have done the corridor stock so these guys really stand out. I do wish Hornby would produce non corridor GWR stock of a similar standard. The only non corridor GWR RTR coaches are B Sets. The difference is so great I try and avoid running them together! 

 

 

 

Having completed a loco exchange the Lanky tank heads back to Birkenhead.........actual the storage sidings where there is a duplicate train which is leaving for Granby. The two trains pass at the entrance to the sidings.....it was quite a complicated routine to set up with RR&Co......I keep threatening to do a video  http://yourmodelrailway.net/images/emoticons/scratchchin.gif

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In the relief road my latest acquisition an ex LNWR 0-6-2 Coal Tank built 1891-7!  Quite authentic for Granby ...they ran out of Wrexham (less certain about the Lanky tank but nostalgia rules)

Although designed to haul coal trains their performance was deemed inadequate for such heavy trains and they became general maids of all work including short haul ordinary passenger trips.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I dont really need another LMS loco let alone a tank but I couldnt resist this one. I find them quite fascinating. There is no doubt Bachmann have mastered the art of producing highly detailed LMS work horses.

There was some doubt about the pick ups fouling points but there is no problem with mine. She is run in,chipped, RR&Co profiled and ready to go. My second Ivatt will have a well earned rest and 7841 will soon be a regular performer on the Birkenhead run

Hope you enjoyed this post......thought I would finish with this

 

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by john dew
photos 21/10/22

[john flann]

John, a touch of nostalgia there too for me concerning the Southport-Liverpool (Lime street) trains, in the 1950's when i was working in the Liverpool District  Estate Surveyors Office (in Lime Street chambers) after a business visit to Southport I would when I could, use that service to return to the office.

 

Once reaching the environs of Liverpool it was a much more interesting run around the back side into Lime Street rather than the straightforward run into Exchange on the electrified service.

 

You tell a good tale and your Granby has a glorious fascination about it. Your locos look good too.

Edited July 24, 2017 by john flann

[john dew]

John, a touch of nostalgia there too for me concerning the Southport-Liverpool (Lime street) trains for when i was working in the Liverpool District  Estate Surveyors Office (in Lime Street chambers) after a business visit to Southport I would when I could, use that service to return to the Office.

 

Once reaching the environs of Liverpool it was a much more interesting run around the back side into Lime Street rather than the straightforward run into Exchange on the electrified service.

 

You tell a good tale and your Granby has a glorious fascination about it. Your locos look good too.

 

I returned to live in Formby for a few years and I used the service a couple of times in the early sixties......amazing it was still running. "Back side of Liverpool" is a good description. Once It  left the electrified line at Bankhall (?) it was a very tortuous route through tunnels and grimy sandstone cuttings.

 

Once again you are very kind about Granby....thank you

 

Best wishes

 

John

[trw1089]

A cracking set of shots Mr Dew, but I have to deduct points for the attempt to disguise dust as weathering, and also the inclusion, albeit out of focus, of a pannier in a couple of shots, but I will overlook such transgressions for the views of the magnificence that is Granby...

 

Cheers

Tony

[john dew]

A cracking set of shots Mr Dew, but I have to deduct points for the attempt to disguise dust as weathering, and also the inclusion, albeit out of focus, of a pannier in a couple of shots, but I will overlook such transgressions for the views of the magnificence that is Granby...

Cheers

Tony

That is very kind of you Tony.

 

As you know one can never have too many Panniers, but I know you are a sensitive soul so I didn't bother with focus stacking!

 

Cheers

[john dew]

Thanks for all the likes ........its always gratifying to know that my scribblings are appreciated

 

This post is all about Panniers........its dedicated to Tony my internet friend and fellow northerner......albeit he now lives in Brisbane

 

I am afraid I have developed an irritating habit of flitting like a butterfly from one project to another ........leaving a series of unfinished work in my wake.  Am I alone in this I wonder?

I have been detailing and weathering my Panniers off and on since January but somehow never got around to completing everything.


We have had gorgeous weather here throughout July......too nice really to spend time in the railway room. So I packed up the paints and panniers and set up outside   

 

 

 

 

Like the prototype, Bachman's panniers are very versatile and ultra reliable. They have always been fully employed on Granby......no sitting around on display or on the shed sidings.  In fairness there is one under the wheel drop but its not resting .....its very dead....one of the earlier split chassis versions.

The automatic coupling and uncoupling sequences I run require very precise consistent stopping. Its surprising how the performance of identical locos can vary......even with same chip and cv settings .Rather than use a variety of locos, each routne has specfic locos allocated.

The arrival of the 14xxs and the prairies finally being adapted to couple consistently meant some panniers were displaced and needed re allocating. So in addition to weathering, adding fire irons, engraved plates and coal I had to do some re- lamping. I also had to do some repositioning of crew .......I am afraid in the past I have cheated by only inserting one crew member into the viewing side of the pannier......murphy's law dictated that the re allocation meant some locos reversed their progress round the layout

I have tried to make each pannier weathering unique, not from a production line, but at the same time clearly all acquired in the same locale.

Here are some examples
 

 

 

I have used assorted locos as the station pilot, Prairie,Collet and Dukedog have all been tried. I have finally settled on a Pannier...... 5771. This is my attempt at light weathering......I visualise the pilot being the shed pet.

Previously I have coded the station pilot with white and red lamps at the ends of both buffer beams  I am the proud owner of a 1933 (reprint 1945) GWR rule book and it makes fascinating reading! Rule 123 specifies a single red light at the centre of each buffer beam .......a detail hardly of great importance but it keeps me and hopefully Stationmaster Mike happy
 

 

 

By way of contrast here is  a heavily work stained 9643. It is destined to haul a short coal train on the lower level once I have completed the relay of the hidden sidings

 

 

 

 

5778 is the goods yard shunter. The shunters truck is permanently hooked up. The infill in the yard leaves a lot to be desired.The truck (now re branded Granby) has had pick ups added and a stay alive concealed in the tool box.


And now two for the price of one

 

 

 

 

Quite the contrast.......6757 is one of the most recent panniers whereas 7714 is my last operational split chassis......I guess it must be 15+ years old. So old that Modelmaster didnt stock engraved plates for its original # 7768.........so it was renumbered to 7714 (still have to do the buffer beams)  which was shedded at Birkenhead in 1950. I dont insist that all locos on Granby should have a local connection but when I am obliged to renumber/rename I try and select numbers that were shedded in the North West.

Guess who punched in 7714 without changing the Cv and wondered why it remained motionless

These two are set up as a consist  (very easy with RR&Co) and act as bankers for the trains from Bersham Colliery when they climb the fearsome incline from the lower level

Finally a parade (or a pride?) of panniers........all done and dusted (literally)
 

 

 

 

 

Regards from Vancouver where it is forecast to hit 30o today.........the old Fahrenheit conversion of doubling Centigrade and adding 30 makes it very hot indeed

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by john dew
16/10/22 Photos

[gwrrob]

Impressive John, several panniers never offend !