S.A.C Martin Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 Oh yes, and Manchester United have never tapped up a player? Just because they've not been caught out does not mean it does not happen behind the scenes. I know of several dozen charlton youngsters who were, for want of a better word, "nicked" from all the top clubs (bar arsenal) over the last fifteen years at the academy level, and several did indeed disappear off to Manchester United. Of course the worst offence was West Ham and Jermain Defoe, but that's a very long story... Point of the matter is, I don't think anyone (least of all Manchester United fans!) should be getting on a soapbox and having a go at other clubs for transfer discrepancies in that way... Steve, you are quite correct in your assertion that its getting more difficult to predict the individual match results, but - and its a big but - the end result this season will be that one of Manchester United, Arsenal and Chelsea will win the premier league, one will win the FA Cup and or the Carling cup and similar... I think what saddens me most is that we won't see a team like Nottingham Forest win the Champions League, or Huddersfield win the FA Cup, or similar in the future. Teams just cannot compete with the difference in money, and it is killing the game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Devil Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Thank goodness Man United are above any kind of dodgy dealings. Hang on, as I said no one's whiter than white, at no point did I make United out to be a paragon of virtue, they're not, but what I did say was that Chelsea have form and showed some examples, I mean there's loads more, Chelsea paying ??5 million to Leeds for two kids who have never featured near the first team, wasn't that the one that brought an FA warning? The point I was making is Chelsea give the impression that they can do what they want, this may not be the case but it's what is perceived by the average opposition fan, hence the behving with a lack of class jibes, perhaps if they put their own house in order then FIFA and the FA wouldn't be involved. As I said, I don'think United are above any dodgy dealings, where there's money there's rogueing, but, interesting point, whilst Chelsea were being reported by Lens about Kakuta, United were eing reported by Le Harve over the Paul Pogba transfer, don't seem to remember geting a transfer ban. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Devil Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 . Point of the matter is, I don't think anyone (least of all Manchester United fans!) should be getting on a soapbox and having a go at other clubs for transfer discrepancies in that way... . So it's ok for you to do so, but as a United suporter I'm not allowed to have an opinion on Chelsea and their supposed lack of class? You can have a rant about Asenal this, big 4 that but least of all a United fan makes a comment and I'm getting on a soapbox? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dseagull Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Oh yes, and Manchester United have never tapped up a player? Just because they've not been caught out does not mean it does not happen behind the scenes. I know of several dozen charlton youngsters who were, for want of a better word, "nicked" from all the top clubs (bar arsenal) over the last fifteen years at the academy level, and several did indeed disappear off to Manchester United. Of course the worst offence was West Ham and Jermain Defoe, but that's a very long story... Point of the matter is, I don't think anyone (least of all Manchester United fans!) should be getting on a soapbox and having a go at other clubs for transfer discrepancies in that way... Steve, you are quite correct in your assertion that its getting more difficult to predict the individual match results, but - and its a big but - the end result this season will be that one of Manchester United, Arsenal and Chelsea will win the premier league, one will win the FA Cup and or the Carling cup and similar... I think what saddens me most is that we won't see a team like Nottingham Forest win the Champions League, or Huddersfield win the FA Cup, or similar in the future. Teams just cannot compete with the difference in money, and it is killing the game. No, they weren't 'nicked'. Rules that were previously in place allowed players to be signed from anywhere. This changed a few years back, so that under 16's can only go to clubs within a 100 mile (could be 60 actually) radius of their parents' homes. Also - this is not new. I read a lot of football history. It was happening in the 19th century! - even to the extent, in one particular documented case, of Scouts from several clubs waiting outside a players' house on his 16th birthday. The moment the clock struck midnight, they knocked on the door and offered him a deal. There have, of course, been examples of 'dubious' deals - parents' being offered money to move, that sort of thing, but in the majority of cases, a youngster is sold a dream, not a promise. They chase it. 99% don't make it. Those who do deserve the rewards. ALL clubs at professional level do it - just because certain ones (and I certainly have no love for Arsenal, but they are one who often get mentioned) are more, shall we say, 'prolific' in their 'discovery' of youngsters, doesen't mean that the rest aren't at it. Also; When Nottingham Forest won the European Cup, they had won the League the season before. It didn't happen out of nowhere. Clough built a wonderful team - and, shock horror, he spent money (first Million pound footballer in Trevor Francis) to do it. When Huddersfield last won the Cup, in 1922, they went on to win the next three successive League titles. These were not tinpot little clubs. Just because the names have changed over the past 30 years, doesen't mean that the calibre has. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted December 21, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 21, 2009 quote name='dseagull' date='21 December 2009 - 19:28 ' timestamp='1261423720' post='49209'] Also; When Nottingham Forest won the European Cup, they had won the League the season before. It didn't happen out of nowhere. Clough built a wonderful team - and, shock horror, he spent money (first Million pound footballer in Trevor Francis) to do it. Absolutely ! They had a genius for a manager.That feat wouldn't be possible in todays football climate.Taking a second division team to European champions when if you lost you were out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 When Nottingham Forest won the European Cup, they had won the League the season before. It didn't happen out of nowhere. Clough built a wonderful team - and, shock horror, he spent money (first Million pound footballer in Trevor Francis) to do it. Forest didn't buy Francis until they had won the League and League Cup in 1978. He was ineligible for the 1979 European Cup campaign until the semis. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dseagull Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 True enough. Point was more around how ridiculous the 'clubs used to bring players through rather than buy success' argument is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 So it's ok for you to do so, but as a United suporter I'm not allowed to have an opinion on Chelsea and their supposed lack of class? You can have a rant about Asenal this, big 4 that but least of all a United fan makes a comment and I'm getting on a soapbox? Yes, I can - my dad was a scout for charlton for many years and would have lost his job if he'd been engaged in any dodgy dealings! But point taken, RE my comments. What I should have said was exactly what you yourself have stated. No one is whiter than white. Dseagull, there's means and ways of signing of a player, and the vast majority of football clubs over the last twenty years have gone through proper channels to sign players. At academy levels, players are contracted to particular clubs and normally as a clause of their contracts, cannot speak to another club until they have spoken to the academy club first (thats what should happen, invariably as with Jermain Defoe and similar, this doesn't happen). gwrrob, you've summed up the point I was trying to make - by now means was I trying to belittle any team or saying they weren't big enough to compete or win that, etc, but you won't get the likes of Nottingham Forest winning the european cup - period. Football has changed to the extent that they simply can't compete, both financially and on the pitch (though the odd wonderful result like Havant & Waterlooville mixing things up in the cup may happen rarer and rarer). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesthecat Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Ok guys time to cool a bit before this topic gets banned as well as politics and religion I seem to recall. We are all loyal to our chosen clubs and a bit of flack from another supporter raises the hackles a bit (I should know I am a liverpool supporter surrounded by united fans). The problem at the end of it all seems to be money dodgy transfer dealings etc at the end of the day it's all down to money and I am sure no club is whiter than white or ethically correct in everything it chooses to do even the one we love so much. Anyway guys if we stick to the facts and avoid needling each other we should be ok. Back out for the second half!! cheers mark sorry if I seem out of line for stepping in but felt to me we were getting a bit heated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oggy1953 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 United tapping up players - Try Berbatov as an example, soon as he heard Sir alex was intrested his form went right off eventualy refusing to play for Spurs till he got his move. Still we did get a lot of money and its no point keeping a player who doesnt want to be there Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 United tapping up players - Try Berbatov as an example, soon as he heard Sir alex was intrested his form went right off eventualy refusing to play for Spurs till he got his move. Still we did get a lot of money and its no point keeping a player who doesnt want to be there Ah yes - player power, that's a whole new argument. It seems slightly bizarre to me that managers can be sacked for under-performing, but not players. It might put a rocket up a few backsides if players had to perform to get paid and/or stay in employment. I'm sorry if I've stoked any of the arguments of the last page or so. That was not my intention. As I say pretty much every time I post on this thread, we're all terribly biased, but I try not to get into sweeping statements of opinion about other clubs supposed failings or lack of class, etc. I'd rather try to put the case for my favoured team than criticise another. Sometimes it seems that supporters hate their rivals more than they like their own team, which seems rather sad, and missing the point. In particular, despite my strong sympathy for the man, I'll not bang on about Mark Hughes' sacking. You can bet your bottom dollar that the minute I dare to say that City have no "class", Chelsea will sack Ancelotti and poach Sven from Notts County... I'll try to keep my posts positive and light-hearted from now on, whilst still defending Chelsea where I can. If I seem to be taking it all a bit too seriously, just let me know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mucky Duck Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Well, I've been stewing on this 'lack of class' comment over the past 24hours or so while Man City and in particular Garry Cooke have tried to defend the manner of Mark Hughes's sacking ??“ and it sucks! It takes an awful lot to destroy the soul of a club ??“ and Man City has a big soul ??“ but this little weasel Cook appears to be trying his very hardest. The sordid episode just makes my skin crawl and the sooner the club gets rid of him and distances itself from him, the better. Personally, I don't think that Hughes was quite the man for the job but that doesn't account for some really ??“ and I yes, I concede ??“ shoddy, classless behaviour. I do feel a little ashamed to be a Man City fan right now. Football, the beautiful game??¦ the ugly business! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oggy1953 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Mucky duck...dont be ashamed it aint the fans fault, yes i know we all want success NOW for our teams, but now money men run the top clubs they want a return for their money, instant !. My team, Spurs, sacked Martin Jol in an equaly disgusting way. No Spurs fan i know wanted him to go, in fact the fans chanted his name constantly for many games as soon as the rumours started, But it made no difference. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BoD Posted December 22, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 22, 2009 Football, the beautiful game??¦ the ugly business! I like that, Sort of sums things up these days. I wonder, like many others I'm sure, just how long it will be before a big(ish) club goes to the wall or ends up in serious difficulty. This silly money can't go on forever ..... can it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted December 22, 2009 Author Share Posted December 22, 2009 BoD, they were discussing the same thing about Liverpool last night on five live...I think its more likely some smaller teams will go first, given the problems popping up in every division this year. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dseagull Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Damn, damn, damn Back page of today's Hailsham Gazette reveals that Tyler Goatcher has gone to Eastbourne United. We've now lost two players this season who, between them, have scored 17 or so. As well as Okky, who has kept out about the same number. Going to be a long, hard season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BoD Posted December 23, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 23, 2009 [moan] Sunderland's Michael Turner appealed against his red card. The FA decided not to allow the appeal, fair enough, but then stuck an extra games ban on for, according to them, wasting their time. By all means make Sundeland foot the bill, but what fair justice system penalises someone for appealing against something? Oops. Mentioned fair, justice and FA in the same breath. Silly me. [/moan] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
highpeak Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 [moan] Sunderland's Michael Turner appealed against his red card. The FA decided not to allow the appeal, fair enough, but then stuck an extra games ban on for, according to them, wasting their time. By all means make Sundeland foot the bill, but what fair justice system penalises someone for appealing against something? Oops. Mentioned fair, justice and FA in the same breath. Silly me. [/moan] In fairness to the FA, players and clubs are fully aware of what the appeals process involves and ought to know that an appeal that really has no basis for success carries the potential for an increase in the suspension. I think this was introduced to discourage teams from lodging appeals so that players would be available for an upcoming match, deferring the suspension till later. From what I've been able to read, Turner was sent off for serious foul play after elbowing an opponent. I'm not sure whether it was last year or the year before, but refs were told to watch for the use of elbows and clamp down. The elbow is a dangerous weapon when you think about it. I am not sure how much coaches and players were told about this, but I can hardly believe the word didn't at least reach the higher level professional game. So presumably the referee saw Turner's elbow hit the opponent in the face, decided it was Serious Foul Play, worth a red card, end of story. About the only way you'd succeed with an appeal would be to produce video showing either no or minimal contact with the opponent or that it was some other player that should have been penalised. Appealing because you agree there was contact but didn't think it was a red (i.e., I disagree with the ref's decision on a matter of fact affecting play), and that's what the manager more or less said, is not very solid grounds for an appeal. You can see the guidelines here: http://www.thefa.com/TheFA/Disciplinary/~/media/Files/PDF/TheFA/DisciplinaryProcedures08091.ashx Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oggy1953 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Bet if Turner played for one of the big four he would have got off, it wasnt intentional as he was looking the other way, and you have to put your elbows out in order to gain height when jumping. Oh and i am not a Sunderland fan, Spurs in fact. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
62613 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 United tapping up players - Try Berbatov as an example, soon as he heard Sir alex was intrested his form went right off eventualy refusing to play for Spurs till he got his move. Still we did get a lot of money and its no point keeping a player who doesnt want to be there You can add Ruud van Nistelrooy, probably, and Arjen Robben certainly, to that list as well. The reason the latter signed for Chelsea was that the PSV president said that he would never have dealings with United again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
highpeak Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Bet if Turner played for one of the big four he would have got off, it wasnt intentional as he was looking the other way, and you have to put your elbows out in order to gain height when jumping. Oh and i am not a Sunderland fan, Spurs in fact. If you read the laws of the game you will find that the word "intentional" does not get mentioned in Law 12. Referees look at actions and outcomes. Players have to challenge for the ball with care. If your elbow smacks somebody hard in the face and endangers the safety of an opponent, you run the risk of being sent off. Whether you need to be putting your elbows out to gain height has nothing to do with it, the presence of an opponent means you need to be more careful. The only difference getting or playing for the ball makes most of the time is whether it gets written up as Serious Foul Play or Violent Conduct. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted December 25, 2009 Author Share Posted December 25, 2009 Charlton VS Swindon tomorrow - come on you reds!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 Bet if Turner played for one of the big four he would have got off, it wasnt intentional as he was looking the other way, and you have to put your elbows out in order to gain height when jumping. I don't think that's true. As Highpeak says, intent has very little to do with the punishment in such an incident. Turner probably intended no harm, but he could certainly have taken care to avoid causing an injury, which is why he was punished. The laws are there to protect all players - of course, it dosn't always seem that way, but I reckon that this time, the right decision was taken. Oh, and why didn't I pop down the bookies a couple of days ago? I was telling anyone who's listen that Birmingham-Chelsea had 0-0 written all over it. Oh well, thanks to Fulham, Chelsea still have a lead. Just need to turn into a Villa fan for the next couple of games... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 Three points for the Irons makes for a very Happy Christmas Now to repeat the trick against Spurs on Monday Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wollastonblue Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 Another 3 points robbed from the Blues again. I am getting so fed up with the Referee bias to the top teams. Chucho was onside, and the goal should have stood. Happy New Year to everyone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now