caradoc Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 On 19/07/2019 at 09:10, Hobby said: None... But they didn't have any money for a decent side during most of the 80s, 90s and 00s... Whilst we haven't been in the finals over the past 9 years we've certainly been more successful in the CL/UEFA than any Scottish team during that period... Oh, and neither were we in a two horse race league for all of that time (with apologies to the some successful runs by Aberdeen) thus guaranteeing that they would "qualify" for the European competitions... And how many horses are there now in the Premier League race ? Without discounting the glorious recent exception of Leicester City, a maximum of five (or perhaps six if Spurs are included, ha ha) English teams have any chance of being champions, for the rest the highest possible ambition is getting into Europe, or for many simply staying in the Premier League. And all that the Scottish teams 'qualify' for is (very early) qualifying rounds; The hurdles placed to prevent smaller countries' League winners reaching the lucrative group stages of the Champions League is nothing more than a cynical money-making exercise for the 'big' leagues and clubs. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 (edited) Six is more than two last time I looked. Albeit three need to get their acts together! I wasn't arguing money simply replying to the post about City's lack of finals (though only for the last 9 years unlike Celtic's 40+)... Edited July 20, 2019 by Hobby Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
south_tyne Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 17 hours ago, Hobby said: Six is more than two last time I looked. Albeit three need to get their acts together! I wasn't arguing money simply replying to the post about City's lack of finals (though only for the last 9 years unlike Celtic's 40+)... Three at a push I would say. Leicester was a once in a lifetime event, a wonderful story but unlikely to occur again. It's still a monopoly, just a slightly wider one. It could be worse, look at France, Italy and Germany for one-club domination. Of course Scotland too as you say - it must be incredibly full being a Celtic fan. They're probably equivalent to mid- to top-end Championship team. If they were playing in the English system then they would undoubtedly improve rapidly, due to the increased finance and massive fanbase. They would be able to attract better players and pay much better wages. It probably wouldn't take long for them to get established in the Premier League, but at the moment they simply have too many games where they don't need to be at 100% to win comfortably. That lack of intensity would take a while to 'up'. That's not Celtic's fault at all, just a reflection of the league. By the way, I am in no way advocating that Celtic should come into the English league system, and my comments are not meant to be disparaging of the Scottish game, it's just my opinion..... I would love to a Wolves or Everton break the top six next year but I still cannot see it happening. I think the problem with the Premier League is thee clubs in the middle - what is there to play for of you're a Watford, a Bournemouth (dare I say) a Newcastle? Where's the excitement? Unlikely to win a cup, continual mid-table finishes and often comfortable for the last few months of the season. The lack of ambition is sad if all the goal is is to finish 17th and stay in the Premier League. It must be boring for fans. I suppose it is like Stoke were under Tony Pulis, mid-table, never going to go down, never having quite enough for a European finish. But then it's a case of be careful what you wish for, change the manager because of the style of football and you end up being relegated. If I was a fan of such a club I would be tempted to say I would like to be relegated to the Championship, just for a bit of drama and to enjoy seeing my team winning some games. Maybe that's a naive and ridiculous attitude to many but look at the excitement at Aston Villa in the last couple of seasons after a decade of stagnation - surely Villa fans have enjoyed this season? I'll stop rambling now... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caradoc Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 I agree with much of what both Hobby and south_tyne say ! Celtic and Rangers are of course big fish in a rather small pond, and given the size of Glasgow compared to other Scottish cities, and the (sometimes unsavoury) historical reasons behind their huge support, that is not going to change. Were they ever to be admitted to the Premier League I do believe that they could compete with all but the top few sides, and maybe even with them. However it is not going to happen; Which Premier League teams are going to volunteer to make way for them ? The Scottish Premier League is indeed very much a two-horse, or recently in fact a one-horse race, and it is disappointing (to me) that the Premier League is heading the same way, with only a small number of teams realistically able to win it. However other European Leagues are similar if not worse; Look at France, Spain and Italy for example. Oh for the days of Forest winning promotion one season and the championship the next ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightengine Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 Steve Bruce should be getting the Freedom of Newcastle tomorrow after a win. Mi Cashley has gained a week without criticism. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Torper Posted July 21, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 21, 2019 2 hours ago, caradoc said: The Scottish Premier League is indeed very much a two-horse, or recently in fact a one-horse race, and it is disappointing (to me) that the Premier League is heading the same way, with only a small number of teams realistically able to win it. However other European Leagues are similar if not worse; Look at France, Spain and Italy for example. Oh for the days of Forest winning promotion one season and the championship the next ! It happens all over Europe - https://www.playthegame.org/news/news-articles/2019/0579_few-clubs-dominate-europes-football-leagues-champions-league-diversity-index-201920/ . In Turkey, for example, the Superleague was established in 1959, since when only five clubs have won the title (and one of them only once and another six times - the three big clubs have shared the rest). PFC Ludogrest Razgrad has won eight successive titles in Bulgaria, Bate Borisov 13 in Belarus. Bayern Munich, I think, has just won its seventh league title in a row, and in Ligue 1 Paris Saint Germain has won every year since 2012/13 apart from 2016/17. And the trouble is that the more they win, the more money they get, and the more they win. Add to the mix a multi-billionaire owner who fancies a new fashion accessory and the gap just grows and grows. And what really gets me is that the more successful these clubs become, the more so-called supporters they get who abandon any interest in their own home town clubs to jump on the bandwagon of success. Up here for every kid wearing a Scottish club's shirt you'll find another sporting the shirt of one of the more successful EPL or other European Big Teams. And every Saturday in Forfar during the season you'll see buses picking up the Old Firm fans and taking them off to their respective matches while the local team, also playing that day, is lucky to attract 600 supporters (including the away ones). Football seems to be being taken away from the community. DT 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
south_tyne Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 45 minutes ago, Torper said: And every Saturday in Forfar during the season you'll see buses picking up the Old Firm fans and taking them off to their respective matches while the local team, also playing that day, is lucky to attract 600 supporters (including the away ones). Football seems to be being taken away from the community. Just swap Forfar for Gateshead and Old Firm for Newcastle and Sunderland and you could be writing about our struggles... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peanuts Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 54 minutes ago, south_tyne said: Just swap Forfar for Gateshead and Old Firm for Newcastle and Sunderland and you could be writing about our struggles... was going to say similar for oldham bolton and bury the pull of manure was always there but now it is being far exceeded by the noisey neighbours at the Etihad it is very difficult to compete especialy on champions league nights against lesser opposition your choices are city v ostrava etc £5 entry for under 16 s or Bury v Grimsby in league 2 for £10-12 and slowly but surely the fan base are being bled out of the smaller clubs whilst they are kids . lack of tv coverage and massive marketing budgets are slowly killing clubs 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
south_tyne Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 12 hours ago, peanuts said: was going to say similar for oldham bolton and bury the pull of manure was always there but now it is being far exceeded by the noisey neighbours at the Etihad it is very difficult to compete especialy on champions league nights against lesser opposition your choices are city v ostrava etc £5 entry for under 16 s or Bury v Grimsby in league 2 for £10-12 and slowly but surely the fan base are being bled out of the smaller clubs whilst they are kids . lack of tv coverage and massive marketing budgets are slowly killing clubs We have tried various initiatives, including reduced entry prices for Newcastle and Sunderland season ticket holders and kids get in for just £3. However we cannot seem to generate better crowds. We seem to have a core of about 650 who come rain, hail or shine (mostly the former two!). When we had a fantastic couple of seasons a few years ago we managed to regularly top 1,000 for home Saturday games, but that has since dropped off. Yet we took 7,000 to the play-off final in 2014..... football tourists in Gateshead!?!? Being somewhat pessimistic, I think if you did a straw-poll in Gateshead town centre, I bet there would be a sinificant number of folks wouldn't even know there is a professional football club in the town The latest initiative is that season ticket holders also get a free under-16 season ticket which can be used for any accompanying child. It's an excuse for the early indoctrination of my Hampshire-born nephew...... he's only 11 months old mind but it's best to start them early!! I wonder whether I will be successful in my mission to make him forget Southampton and follow the Super Heed Army instead! I think even we can get back in the Football League will have some of the smallest crowds, along the lines of Accrington etc. We are not miraculously going to magic up 5,000 extra fans from somewhere, just because we are in League 2. In fact, I would say we are more likely to get better crowds this season, playing Spennymoor, Darlington, Blyth, York, Bradford PA etc, with all the local interest and intrigue it will spark, rather than teams like Stevenage, Cheltenham, Crawley and Wallsall. No offence intended to those clubs and I'm sure they would hate making the long trip up to Gateshead in this theoretical scenario!! Actually I always feel we have a lot in common with Accrington, struggling clubs, formerly in the league (obviously they managed to get back unlike us), sandwiched between Blackburn and Burnley, seemingly always battling against the tide. There are plenty of us small clubs out there in similar positions... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckymucklebackit Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 14 hours ago, Torper said: It happens all over Europe - https://www.playthegame.org/news/news-articles/2019/0579_few-clubs-dominate-europes-football-leagues-champions-league-diversity-index-201920/ . In Turkey, for example, the Superleague was established in 1959, since when only five clubs have won the title (and one of them only once and another six times - the three big clubs have shared the rest). PFC Ludogrest Razgrad has won eight successive titles in Bulgaria, Bate Borisov 13 in Belarus. Bayern Munich, I think, has just won its seventh league title in a row, and in Ligue 1 Paris Saint Germain has won every year since 2012/13 apart from 2016/17. And the trouble is that the more they win, the more money they get, and the more they win. Add to the mix a multi-billionaire owner who fancies a new fashion accessory and the gap just grows and grows. And what really gets me is that the more successful these clubs become, the more so-called supporters they get who abandon any interest in their own home town clubs to jump on the bandwagon of success. Up here for every kid wearing a Scottish club's shirt you'll find another sporting the shirt of one of the more successful EPL or other European Big Teams. And every Saturday in Forfar during the season you'll see buses picking up the Old Firm fans and taking them off to their respective matches while the local team, also playing that day, is lucky to attract 600 supporters (including the away ones). Football seems to be being taken away from the community. DT ...and still the SPFL pander to the Old Firm demands, the next move is likely to be the admittance into the lower leagues of "colt" (under 21) teams, this has already been tried in the Irn Bru Cup (never heard of it? Not surprised although a certain Connaghs Quay did well last year). Fans of the lower league clubs are dead against it as it can attract the nastier factions of OF fans to grounds that are not set up for segregation and surveillance but as this proposal will be sweetened by cash injections the club chairmen could be swayed to accept this. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
south_tyne Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 30 minutes ago, luckymucklebackit said: ...the next move is likely to be the admittance into the lower leagues of "colt" (under 21) teams, this has already been tried in the Irn Bru Cup... I think this would be a terrible move. It goes against the ethos of the British league structure. I know it works in Spain, with B-teams in the normal league system, but what makes our 'pyramid' so successful and unique is that individual identity of each club. Letting say a Celtic second team into the Scottish system, or a Man City under-23 team into the Football League instantly undermines that. As a fan of a National League North club I would not want to see the big bits have reserve sides in our league. It would be another example of football pandering to the elite and letting finances rule the game. See the backlash even in the Football League Trophy (cannot remember was it is currently called) as evidence that fans simply don't want it. You even had representatives from our league in your Irn Bru Cup last year! Whilst I think some kind of British Cup, or better still including League of Ireland teams too, would be really interesting, I don't think that is the right format. Mind I haven't got a clue as to how it would be organised or the level of teams you would take from each respective league! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
62613 Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 14 hours ago, peanuts said: was going to say similar for oldham bolton and bury the pull of manure was always there but now it is being far exceeded by the noisey neighbours at the Etihad it is very difficult to compete especialy on champions league nights against lesser opposition your choices are city v ostrava etc £5 entry for under 16 s or Bury v Grimsby in league 2 for £10-12 and slowly but surely the fan base are being bled out of the smaller clubs whilst they are kids . lack of tv coverage and massive marketing budgets are slowly killing clubs If you think that's bad, you should have even more sympathy for any of the six clubs in the borough where you live, who not only have tp put up with United and City, but some of the others you named. As one of our directors says, would you rather sit in Spoons, or the Organ, say, in Stalybridge, have a pint or two, stay warm and watch football on the TV, or walk up Mottram Road in the freezing cold and wet and pay £10 to watch what hasn't been very good football over the last few seasons? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
62613 Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, south_tyne said: I think this would be a terrible move. It goes against the ethos of the British league structure. I know it works in Spain, with B-teams in the normal league system, but what makes our 'pyramid' so successful and unique is that individual identity of each club. Letting say a Celtic second team into the Scottish system, or a Man City under-23 team into the Football League instantly undermines that. As a fan of a National League North club I would not want to see the big bits have reserve sides in our league. It would be another example of football pandering to the elite and letting finances rule the game. See the backlash even in the Football League Trophy (cannot remember was it is currently called) as evidence that fans simply don't want it. You even had representatives from our league in your Irn Bru Cup last year! Whilst I think some kind of British Cup, or better still including League of Ireland teams too, would be really interesting, I don't think that is the right format. Mind I haven't got a clue as to how it would be organised or the level of teams you would take from each respective league! On your first point, the English FA have been trying for years to rid the National League System of reserve teams of clubs higher up the pyramid. For instance, not that long ago the first division of the Eastern Counties League was about 33% reserve teams from their premier division, and clubs further up. I think the Hellenic League was similar. Edited July 22, 2019 by 62613 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Torper Posted July 22, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 22, 2019 1 hour ago, luckymucklebackit said: ...and still the SPFL pander to the Old Firm demands, the next move is likely to be the admittance into the lower leagues of "colt" (under 21) teams, this has already been tried in the Irn Bru Cup (never heard of it? Not surprised although a certain Connaghs Quay did well last year). Fans of the lower league clubs are dead against it as it can attract the nastier factions of OF fans to grounds that are not set up for segregation and surveillance but as this proposal will be sweetened by cash injections the club chairmen could be swayed to accept this. Quite - it would be a terrible move. I'm not sure that it would be attractive to lower league clubs, however - certainly the supporters are dead set against it and I'm not at all sure that the clubs themselves would want to see their leagues won every season by Old Firm colt teams, even although they would not apparently be eligible for promotion. It really makes a mockery of the whole thing. I have to confess to quite liking the Irn Bru cup however although once again I don't think there's any place for premier league colt teams in it; however, it does give out lower league sides a shot at "international" football! DT 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckymucklebackit Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 1 hour ago, south_tyne said: I think this would be a terrible move. It goes against the ethos of the British league structure. I know it works in Spain, with B-teams in the normal league system, but what makes our 'pyramid' so successful and unique is that individual identity of each club. Letting say a Celtic second team into the Scottish system, or a Man City under-23 team into the Football League instantly undermines that. As a fan of a National League North club I would not want to see the big bits have reserve sides in our league. It would be another example of football pandering to the elite and letting finances rule the game. See the backlash even in the Football League Trophy (cannot remember was it is currently called) as evidence that fans simply don't want it. You even had representatives from our league in your Irn Bru Cup last year! Whilst I think some kind of British Cup, or better still including League of Ireland teams too, would be really interesting, I don't think that is the right format. Mind I haven't got a clue as to how it would be organised or the level of teams you would take from each respective league! Back in the 1970s we did have an excellent tournament called the Texaco Cup which was played for by English, Scottish and some Irish teams that finished mid table, unfortunately once Texaco pulled out and there was no sponsorship money the cup gradually declined. As an Airdrie supporter it provided fond memories as we beat Nottingham Forest, Manchester City and Huddersfield, only losing narrowly to the then English League Champions, Brian Clough's Derby County. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Torper Posted July 22, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 22, 2019 Yes, Airdrie 2, Manchester City 0 - unlikely to see that again! DT Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckymucklebackit Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, Torper said: Yes, Airdrie 2, Manchester City 0 - unlikely to see that again! DT I was one of the 13,700 there that night (something else you will never see repeated), unfortunately City had lost interest in the tournament and fielded what effectively was a reserve team, still we drew with their then first team at Maine Road in the first leg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
south_tyne Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 4 hours ago, 62613 said: On your first point, the English FA have been trying for years to rid the National League System of reserve teams of clubs higher up the pyramid. The highest reserve teams are allowed in our part of the world is the Wearside League, so they're not allowed into the Northern League. Actually Hebburn Town Reserves won the Wearside last year but couldn't go up. Darlington Reserves also had a spell in there as did Spennymoor. However it's complicated...... Coxhoe became Spenny Reserves but have since gone back to being Coxhoe. Horden changed mid-season to being Darlo Reserves but have now become Darlington Town, a stand-alone club. To further complicate it, there is still a Horden CW kicking around! I think this all goes to emphasis the mess that occurs when second teams play in the 'normal' pyramid. Reserve sides were also part of the old North Eastern League, which folded in 1958. Sunderland, Middlesbrough, Darlington, Hartlepool, Workington and maybe even Newcastle played in the league, alongside semi-pro sides like South Shields, North Shields, Spennymoor etc. Actually reserve sides pulling out was one of the reasons for the league's demise. On a similar point, I know the FA are also not keen on university sides getting too high up the pyramid after the saga with Team Bath a few years ago. Team Northumbria were in the Northern League for a number of years (although I don't think there were any students playing in latter years) and Newcastle University have recently come into NL Division 2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two_sugars Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 I live in Horden, and it’s got me confused, . . . . I think that was all down to some “jiggers Pokery” by ermmm . . . owners. John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
south_tyne Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Two_sugars said: I live in Horden, and it’s got me confused, . . . . I think that was all down to some “jiggers Pokery” by ermmm . . . owners. John Ha ha There was a time when they used to refer to the 'East Durham Triangle' in North East non-league circles because so many teams had folded, gone bust or disappeared! Edited July 22, 2019 by south_tyne Rubbish spelling 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted July 22, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 22, 2019 9 hours ago, 62613 said: If you think that's bad, you should have even more sympathy for any of the six clubs in the borough where you live, who not only have tp put up with United and City, but some of the others you named. As one of our directors says, would you rather sit in Spoons, or the Organ, say, in Stalybridge, have a pint or two, stay warm and watch football on the TV, or walk up Mottram Road in the freezing cold and wet and pay £10 to watch what hasn't been very good football over the last few seasons? To make a modelling analogy, would anyone rather build a kit or open a box? Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
62613 Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, Enterprisingwestern said: To make a modelling analogy, would anyone rather build a kit or open a box? Mike. A very good analogy, that! Edited July 22, 2019 by 62613 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
south_tyne Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 Considering the struggles of so many smaller clubs, many of which we have discussed here, the 'dilemma' faced by Gareth Bale in deciding whether to move to China for a wage of £1m a week is simply obscene...... It's not Bale's fault, someone is willing to pay him and that so why wouldn't you go if you were in his shoes, but it just lays out starkly the contrast between the 'haves' and 'have nots' in the game. My club nearly went to the wall only weeks ago for a relatively miniscule debt and was then sold for princely sum of £26,000........ Mr Bale probably makes that in an afternoon...... 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 Well the players wanted to go "professional" and it's been going downhill ever since... Though on the bright side some working class lads have ended up as millionaires... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted July 23, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 23, 2019 1 hour ago, south_tyne said: Considering the struggles of so many smaller clubs, many of which we have discussed here, the 'dilemma' faced by Gareth Bale in deciding whether to move to China for a wage of £1m a week is simply obscene...... It's not Bale's fault, someone is willing to pay him and that so why wouldn't you go if you were in his shoes, but it just lays out starkly the contrast between the 'haves' and 'have nots' in the game. My club nearly went to the wall only weeks ago for a relatively miniscule debt and was then sold for princely sum of £26,000........ Mr Bale probably makes that in an afternoon...... At £6.756 per hour an easy afternoons work! Mike. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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