1960's Milk Trains

[Stalwart]

I was wondering what would have been a typical vehicle used in a 1960's WR milk train to accomodate the Guard. I suppose a Hawksworth BG might have been an option or a Mk1 equivalent perhaps? Or was it a case of any available suitable vehicle being marshalled in the train? The photos I have looked at show some sort of van but they are usually far enough from the camera to identify what they are.

[Fat Controller]

Until the beginning of the 1960s, the WR had three purpose-built brake vans for milk trains. After that, ordinary passenger full-brakes would have been used- during the period in question, they would probably have been older Collett 57' ones, as the Hawkesworth and Mark 1 stock would have been used for front-line passenger work. Another possibility would have been either 6-wheel Stove Rs (ex-LMS- available from Hornby Magazine/Dapol soon)) or SR Van B (Ratio kit) or Van C (Hornby)- these all had the advantage of having stoves to keep the guard cosy, in the event of steam-heating being unavailable.

[DaveF]

This milk train was at Instow.

 

 

 

David

[Kris]

Pictures tend to show them running with a full brake coach somewhere in the formation, and the information in various books I have also generally mentions full brakes in relations to milk trains. I was not aware of the 3 brake vans that FC mentions. Were these just used on trains in a set area or did the move about around the system over their lifetime?

[Fat Controller]

Pictures tend to show them running with a full brake coach somewhere in the formation, and the information in various books I have also generally mentions full brakes in relations to milk trains. I was not aware of the 3 brake vans that FC mentions. Were these just used on trains in a set area or did the move about around the system over their lifetime?

The four vans seem to have been allocated to specific workings in their early days:-

1397 Faringdon and Cricklewood (3/38)

Frome and Cricklewood (8/37)

Ealing and Cricklewood (2/40)

1399 Lavington and Cricklewood (10/31)

Frome and Cricklewood (5/37)

1400 Return to Stratford upon Avon (5/47)

Information from the HMRS book on Siphons. 1399 is preserved on the Severn Valley Railway.

[Kris]

The four vans seem to have been allocated to specific workings in their early days:-

1397 Faringdon and Cricklewood (3/38)

Frome and Cricklewood (8/37)

Ealing and Cricklewood (2/40)

1399 Lavington and Cricklewood (10/31)

Frome and Cricklewood (5/37)

1400 Return to Stratford upon Avon (5/47)

Information from the HMRS book on Siphons. 1399 is preserved on the Severn Valley Railway.

 

Thanks for that extra detail. I have mainly looked at the trains from the far west, which would explain why I had not come across these before.

 

 

 

[Andy M]

The Penzance - Kensington milk trains in the late 50's early 60's usually had a Hawkesworth Full Brake at the rear of the train, which would have been full of milk churns. The evening Up diagram often had a DD4 Corden Gas Tank attached to the back as well, returning empty to London after filling Restuarant Cars at Penzance and Plymouth.

 

Andy.

[Stalwart]

Many thanks for your replies gentlemen. Excellent photo, just my era! Is that a Stanier full brake in the picture?

[Fat Controller]

Many thanks for your replies gentlemen. Excellent photo, just my era! Is that a Stanier full brake in the picture?

Looks like one to me- bet LMR Control were wondering where it had got to.

[chrisf]

Remember that many WR full brakes were allocated to specific workings and were branded accordingly. For example, 55 (diagram K40, can be made from Comet kit) and 142 (diagram K41, think there is a suitable Comet kit) were allocated to the 12.20 pm Penzance - Kensington milk and 7.45 pm Kensington - Penzance milk empties the next day and carried the lettering "Penzance and Kensington Milk Train".

 

Someone, somewhere, may have a full list of brandings. Oh dear, it's gone rather quiet.

 

Chris

[Baby Deltic]

There are a few pictures around of class 15's on the North London Line, working the six wheel milk tanks on from Kensington Olympia to Broad Street and other locations. I think a standard brakevan was used for onward movement from Kenny O.

[Karhedron]

Collett BGs would have been the most common followed by Hawksworth. I have not seen any pics of Mk1 BGs on these workings, I think they were still too new at the time.

 

I have a nice shot of K40 W36 in lined Maroon with milk train brandings (kits in both 00 and N for this diagram).

 

Visiting ex-LMS coaches did get used too as the above photo shows. I think that this is from lot 1198.

 

Until the beginning of the 1960s, the WR had three purpose-built brake vans for milk trains. After that, ordinary passenger full-brakes would have been used- during the period in question

I am guessing you are refering to the diagram O13 milk brakes. These were withdrawn around 1960 (although at least one went in departmental use) and in any case there were far too few of them to cover all the milk diagrams on the GWR. Practice was always to use old passenger BGs. I have a nice photo of a Star hauling a milk train around nationalisation with an old clerestory BG at the back.

[Karhedron]

There are a few pictures around of class 15's on the North London Line, working the six wheel milk tanks on from Kensington Olympia to Broad Street and other locations. I think a standard brakevan was used for onward movement from Kenny O.

Does anyone have a photograph showing the bottling plant at Kensington? It seemed to receive a lot of traffic but I have been unable to identify it in any photos.

[The Stationmaster]

Does anyone have a photograph showing the bottling plant at Kensington? It seemed to receive a lot of traffic but I have been unable to identify it in any photos.

 

 

 

Was there a bottling plant there - Atkinson mentions the milk traffic as being dealt with 'in the northwest bays' and I thought that originally all the milk via Kenny was simply transferred there to road (but I might well be wrong on that of course). (There was a dairy establishment at Wood Lane.)

 

[Fat Controller]

I've only heard of Kenny O acting as an assembly point for milk trains; certainly never heard any mention of a dairy/bottling plant there.

[Karhedron]

Was there a bottling plant there

I've only heard of Kenny O acting as an assembly point for milk trains; certainly never heard any mention of a dairy/bottling plant there.

Ah, perhaps that is why I have not been able to find ny pictures of it.

[PhilJ W]

The only one that I know of was the United Dairies one at Ilford opposite the car sheds on the up side. This was basically a long single siding IIRC the milk tankers were tripped via the NLL. As these facilities were owned by the dairies they probably were very similar.

[Fat Controller]

The only one that I know of was the United Dairies one at Ilford opposite the car sheds on the up side. This was basically a long single siding IIRC the milk tankers were tripped via the NLL. As these facilities were owned by the dairies they probably were very similar.

There was one at Cricklewood, opposite the station; one at Wood Lane (the siding still been shown in my 1980 Baker, as is Ilford); another at Morden. All of these were terminals attached to bottling plants, and so had steam-cleaning facilities and so on. Vauxhall is the only one where I can't visualise any sort of cleaning beyond a simple flush-through with water.

My recollection of the loading terminal at Carmarthen, which was between the station and the inevitable traffic-jams on the approach road to the Towy Bridge (and thus viewed often and closely..) was that all road and rail tankers were steam-cleaned after unloading or before reloading. It is possible that the cleaning of the empty tanks from Vauxhall would have been undertaken at the loading terminal.

[Karhedron]

There was also one at Marylebone on the Rossmore Road overbridge (I think it was Express Dairies). There is a photo of it here after milk trains had stopped but before it was demolished. It is the rather non-descript 1920s industrial building on the right.

 

http://daverowland.fotopic.net/p48050807.html

 

 

My recollection of the loading terminal at Carmarthen, which was between the station and the inevitable traffic-jams on the approach road to the Towy Bridge (and thus viewed often and closely..) was that all road and rail tankers were steam-cleaned after unloading or before reloading.

Is this the one?

 

http://www.peoplescollection.co.uk/Item/14061

[Karhedron]

Also just found this Creamery at Llangadog. It is right by the station so I guess it was rail-served at some point.

 

 

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?cid=8953444552237870989

[Fat Controller]

Oddly, I've never seen any reference to it being rail-served, though the timber yard on the other side was at one time. I have a feeling it either made cheese, or simply supplied areas like the South Wales coalfield, rather than further afield. I did quite a lot of both paid work (building a gauging station for the Welsh Water Authority) and fieldwork for geology and geography around Llangadog in the early 1970s, and never saw anything to suggest there had actually been a rail connection. I've not seen any mention in anything I've read on the Central Wales line either.

[Oldddudders]

Vauxhall is the only one where I can't visualise any sort of cleaning beyond a simple flush-through with water.

My recollection of the loading terminal at Carmarthen, which was between the station and the inevitable traffic-jams on the approach road to the Towy Bridge (and thus viewed often and closely..) was that all road and rail tankers were steam-cleaned after unloading or before reloading. It is possible that the cleaning of the empty tanks from Vauxhall would have been undertaken at the loading terminal.

Can't point to any source, but ISTR some document or film somewhere in which men in "suitable" suits did indeed clean the tanks at Vauxhall from inside. I think by the time they were returned to the loading points in anything like warm weather, the milk residue would have gone quite nasty & taken twice as long to clean out.

[Karhedron]

Oddly, I've never seen any reference to it being rail-served, though the timber yard on the other side was at one time.

You may be right. Although one thing that springs to mind is I have seen occasional references to milk traffic from Felindre (whih is a mile to the south). Perhaps it is just the name or perhaps it had no rail connection as you suggest.

[The Stationmaster]

A 'milk platform' was authorised at Llangadock in 1898.

The ground frame connection to the creamery was in use by January 1955 (possibly commissioned earlier, laid in during 1954).

The station was renamed Llangadog w.e.f 15 May 1958

There was a Private Siding Agreement with C.W.S. for the creamery siding from 25 August 1960 (no earlier PSA quoted) and

The C.W.S. PSA was terminated on 23 September 1966.

The creamery siding ground frame was taken out of use on 10 October 1966

There is no indication of any other private sidings at Llangadog, the goods yard - opposite side from the creamery - was altered and provided with longer sidings in, probably, 1878 when the running line connections were altered. These sidings were removed in 1965.

 

(with due acknowledgement to Tony Cooke for publishing such helpful information for our continued use and enjoyment)

[Karhedron]

(There was a dairy establishment at Wood Lane.)[/i]

After much searching I think I have finally found a picture of it. This shot is from the 1949 film "Blue Lamp" and shows the dairy in the background.