Early Risers.

[BSW01]

Goodnight everyone 

[Coombe Barton]

1 hour ago, polybear said:

I’m sure it’s not Warfare (or money, for that matter) for the (Para)olympians - but it’s obvious to see just how much winning a medal means to them; they might well only ever get one chance at it.

True, but not everyone can come first. All participants need congratulating for their dedication, their effort, their personal sacrifice. Too much emphasis is placed on tables and point scoring.

 

[PhilJ W]

Goodnight all.

[polybear]

1 hour ago, PupCam said:

 

But the TV isn't on in Pupper's Pad.

 

Look what I just got

 

 

Yet the NM, Dave Hunt's thread, the Aircraft Photos thread and WW all worked just fine.    Maybe it's because the thread is so huge?   

I seem to remember someone had a pragmatic idea on that but it didn't seem to go down well for reasons that I didn't understand.      

 

 

Must be those terrifying words “Part Two” added to the Thread Title that did it…. 😉

 

1 hour ago, PupCam said:

I really must find out how to downgrade my membership.   Anyone know?

 
Cancel your Direct Debit; rumour has it that the “Metal Fairy-gate” saga a while back (remember that?) might’ve caused one or two to do that….

[Gwiwer]

2 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

At present, though they sometimes turn up like buses!!!

 

Not at all then.

 

Our new bus timetable has been advertised by the operator as having "no significant changes" from yesterday to tomorrow.  The Sunday timetable remains hourly but still ends at around 5pm.  From tomorrow however the hourly weekday service becomes a very irregular service with gaps of anything from 77 to 123 minutes and no standard times "past the hour" at all.  The abandonment of a clock-face timetable also sees a significant reduction in journeys offered.  

 

"Not significant"?  I beg to differ.  There will be even more complaints made in the next few days than there have been all summer.  Since our local route was force-wedded to the Penzance - St Ives route we have suffered no end of missed trips and buses turning up well over a half-hour late.  

 

There are rumours of the First Bus operation walking away from Cornwall altogether; not new rumours as the same was being put about 30 years ago when I was a driver for them.  But with only three or four routes left in the area (the rest being contracted to Go Cornwall, a/k/a the Little Red Buses) and the recent closure of the Helston base the writing may be on the wall this time.  Please go away and allow a sensible, reliable operator to take over.  One who doesn't schedule buses in west Cornwall from an office in Aberdeen using nothing but the accountant's bottom-line for guidance and with no concept of local needs.  

 

Oh.  Another thing.  "Turning up like buses"?  From tomorrow the odd-interval main-road bus will be timed to leave here at the same time as the intermittent round-the-villages little red bus.  So two together then nothing for up to two hours.  And repeat.  Tiz crazy.  

[jjb1970]

Cultivating an ethos of winning with medals, medal ceremonies,  and cultivating nationalist pride by competing under national flags with lots of flag waving seems a bit odd if it's all about taking part and humankind as one big happy family.

 

As a human being I would like more recognition of the dedication needed to just get to the Olympics, which is why I didn't see Eddie the Eagle as a joke, he deserved some respect for deciding to take up ski jumping and get to the games. However there's something dishonest about the Olympics referencing a founding vision which is contradicted by everything they do.

 

And in reality how could it be different given the dedication and sacrifice needed to compete at the Olympics. The Paralympics were once different and it was recognised that beating disabilities to compete in sport was a remarkable achievement in itself, but now the paralysis have the same ethos of winning.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, jjb1970 said:

Cultivating an ethos of winning with medals, medal ceremonies,  and cultivating nationalist pride by competing under national flags with lots of flag waving seems a bit odd if it's all about taking part and humankind as one big happy family.

 

But how else would you provide the funding, other than along national lines?

[jjb1970]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But how else would you provide the funding, other than along national lines?

 

I don't think you would, which goes to the heart of the matter of what the Olympics are.

 

Are the games to be consistent with a founding vision in which case it isn't really about fame and the glory of winning. In which case why should they cost $$$$$$$$$$$$$s to stage with vast new venues which tend to become white elephants as soon as the games are over unless they can be re-purposed.

 

Or are they a vast enterprise costing huge sums to stage and which relies on corporate sponsorship and media rights which largely derive from an appeal to mass audiences seeing the achievements of sports people as in some way validating their belief in their national virtues?

 

In the case of the first an obsession with flag waving and winning would be much less important, in the case of the second waving flags and winning is pretty much the whole point.

[jjb1970]

Something which underpins any elite level sport is the absolute dedication needed to compete. People with that sort of dedication aren't in it just to feel good about competing, they want to win. Even at local amateur level it may be less intense but those who train every day, forego many of life's pleasures and pursue improved performance are doing to achieve something more than just taking part. Which is why elite sports people are often (though by no means always) over achievers in other areas of life, they have a determination to succeed and to 'win'. You could take the money out of sport but sports people would still want to win and strive to do so. So the idea of it all being about taking part is fundamentally flawed, however that is not incompatible with recognizing the efforts of those taking part. Ultimately for someone to win there has to be a loser (unless there is only a single entrant.

[iL Dottore]

9 hours ago, Ozexpatriate said:

Happens all the time to me.

 

I hate television commercials with a doorbell sound. There's one on regularly (not featuring someone at the door) but with a sound somewhere in the audio track that makes me think someone is at the door.

 

A week or so ago I was sure I had heard my son arrive home. He hadn't. This wasn't the door bell but what I thought was the door opening and the chime of the open door detector (there is an alarm system). I kept waiting to hear footsteps in the entry, but there wasn't any.

 

Oz was watching Naked Nun Mud Wrestling on the TV, when the doorbell rang, or so he thought. 

Putting down his glass of Old Spot Artisan Pale Ale, he went to the front door, opened it and no one was there.

 

Puzzled, Oz stepped across the doorstep and….

 

…INTO THE TWILIGHT ZONE!

 

(cue eerie music)

[Barry O]

Ey up!

 

Very foggy this morning up here in the North West Leeds Highlands and I am walking to my Barbers appoint. Buggggrrrrriiitt!

 

As soon as you get large committees involved in sport things tend to go pear shaped.. Olympics, cricket, etc. 

 

Finished my paintwork on a 3D printed item. Will appear later on my muddling thread.

 

@iL Dottore I remember the Twilight Zone and the jangling music...

 

Stay safe!

 

Baz

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

 

I don't think you would, which goes to the heart of the matter of what the Olympics are.

 

Are the games to be consistent with a founding vision in which case it isn't really about fame and the glory of winning. In which case why should they cost $$$$$$$$$$$$$s to stage with vast new venues which tend to become white elephants as soon as the games are over unless they can be re-purposed.

 

Or are they a vast enterprise costing huge sums to stage and which relies on corporate sponsorship and media rights which largely derive from an appeal to mass audiences seeing the achievements of sports people as in some way validating their belief in their national virtues?

 

In the case of the first an obsession with flag waving and winning would be much less important, in the case of the second waving flags and winning is pretty much the whole point.

 

I meant, the funding for individual athletes.

[iL Dottore]

8 hours ago, Coombe Barton said:

True, but not everyone can come first. All participants need congratulating for their dedication, their effort, their personal sacrifice. Too much emphasis is placed on tables and point scoring.

 

Very true.

 

There is criticism of the educational approach which can be broadly described  as “prizes for all”, and whilst the aims of such an approach are laudable (i.e. no child should be made to feel a failure), in practice I would argue that it’s counterproductive as (as I see it) it 

• fosters entitlement (I turned up, so where’s my reward?)
• ill prepares young people for real life. In real life you don’t always “win” (succeed at something, achieve a desired goal etc), being able to deal with failure/lack of success/“loosing” is an important part of growing up.
• doesn’t lead to the ability to realistically self-criticise.

The latter is a particularly difficult skill to master. I see that in myself: when I (say) build something like Will’s Imbiss (a snack bar in 7mm - see TNM for photos): how do I assess what I do without ending up either at one extreme (thinking that what I’ve done is a pile of carp [when an objective outsider would say that it isn’t]) or the other (thinking that what I’ve done is better than Pendon [when an objective outsider would say that  it isn’t]).

 

I believe that the secret to benefiting from“failure”  is to either use it an impetus to “do better next time” or a starting point from which one can explore areas/interests/activities where one can “win”.

[jjb1970]

13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I meant, the funding for individual athletes.

 

They could self-fund, or secure sponsorship. Self-funding would probably exclude less affluent competitors but it's already a lot more difficult for people from poor backgrounds to attain professional sports status. Sponsorship from professional teams, sporting goods suppliers or companies wanting some marketing would probably carry obligations but there are few free lunches in life. These are already the two main avenues for many aspiring sports people. An alternative is paid employment for a sports team via their academy systems. Personally I am not an advocate of state funding for sports.

[Winslow Boy]

8 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

Not at all then.

 

Our new bus timetable has been advertised by the operator as having "no significant changes" from yesterday to tomorrow.  The Sunday timetable remains hourly but still ends at around 5pm.  From tomorrow however the hourly weekday service becomes a very irregular service with gaps of anything from 77 to 123 minutes and no standard times "past the hour" at all.  The abandonment of a clock-face timetable also sees a significant reduction in journeys offered.  

 

"Not significant"?  I beg to differ.  There will be even more complaints made in the next few days than there have been all summer.  Since our local route was force-wedded to the Penzance - St Ives route we have suffered no end of missed trips and buses turning up well over a half-hour late.  

 

There are rumours of the First Bus operation walking away from Cornwall altogether; not new rumours as the same was being put about 30 years ago when I was a driver for them.  But with only three or four routes left in the area (the rest being contracted to Go Cornwall, a/k/a the Little Red Buses) and the recent closure of the Helston base the writing may be on the wall this time.  Please go away and allow a sensible, reliable operator to take over.  One who doesn't schedule buses in west Cornwall from an office in Aberdeen using nothing but the accountant's bottom-line for guidance and with no concept of local needs.  

 

Oh.  Another thing.  "Turning up like buses"?  From tomorrow the odd-interval main-road bus will be timed to leave here at the same time as the intermittent round-the-villages little red bus.  So two together then nothing for up to two hours.  And repeat.  Tiz crazy.  

From what I can recall aren't bus services dependent upon how much the County Council is prepared to subsidise them.

 

If so the 'accountant' will be factoring that into which routes are viable.

 

The buses here in Manutopea have just been 'nationalised' and the fares fixed at I think £2.50. They are also bringing back a night service which we haven't had for absolute yonks. Whether it's a success remains to be seen.

Edited September 2 by Winslow Boy

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

 

They could self-fund, or secure sponsorship. Self-funding would probably exclude less affluent competitors but it's already a lot more difficult for people from poor backgrounds to attain professional sports status. Sponsorship from professional teams, sporting goods suppliers or companies wanting some marketing would probably carry obligations but there are few free lunches in life. These are already the two main avenues for many aspiring sports people. An alternative is paid employment for a sports team via their academy systems. Personally I am not an advocate of state funding for sports.

 

As you say, this would be highly retrograde and significantly limit access, though you appear to regard that as a good thing. If you are against state funding for sports, I assume you are also against state funding for any other cultural or socially beneficial activity such as arts and education?

Edited September 2 by Compound2632

[iL Dottore]

8 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

 Please go away and allow a sensible, reliable operator to take over.  One who doesn't schedule buses in west Cornwall from an office in Aberdeen using nothing but the accountant's bottom-line for guidance and with no concept of local needs.  

But is there a sensible reliable operator around? 

I don’t think such things exist anymore in the UK given Britain’s cult of incompetence. Don’t get me wrong - there are plenty of skilled, competent and reliable people in the UK (how else would the country keep running?). Unfortunately I would say most of these (99%? 95%? 99%?) are working “at the coalface” and will never get anywhere near the decision making - “the levers of power” so to speak.

 

And when you let the “spreadsheet boys” and “the money men” take over, you have the perfect recipe for big bonuses, “shareholder value”, boardroom rewards and a crumbling, dysfunctional infrastructure or service (a notion shared by one or two very successful businessmen who, in their interviews and biographies, are very emphatic about not letting the “money men” anywhere near a company’s decision making processes).

[jjb1970]

Just now, Compound2632 said:

 

As you say, this would be highly retrograde and significantly limit access. If you are against statep funding for sports, I assume you are also against state funding for any other cultural or socially beneficial activity such as arts and education?

 

It depends. Education is one thing, funding people to compete in sport another. So I have no issue with sports science education,  Just as providing education in music is one thing, subsidising concerts another. If philanthropic sponsors or commercial organizations do it that's their choice but I'm not a fan of the state funding such stuff. Ditto theatre and other entertainment. Museums are more difficult as the state is already a major owner of historic artifacts and cultural items but I also think state museums should charge entry and that those who enjoy and use them should pay a higher part of the cost. 

[Winslow Boy]

54 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

But is there a sensible reliable operator around? 

I don’t think such things exist anymore in the UK given Britain’s cult of incompetence. Don’t get me wrong - there are plenty of skilled, competent and reliable people in the UK (how else would the country keep running?). Unfortunately I would say most of these (99%? 95%? 99%?) are working “at the coalface” and will never get anywhere near the decision making - “the levers of power” so to speak.

 

And when you let the “spreadsheet boys” and “the money men” take over, you have the perfect recipe for big bonuses, “shareholder value”, boardroom rewards and a crumbling, dysfunctional infrastructure or service (a notion shared by one or two very successful businessmen who, in their interviews and biographies, are very emphatic about not letting the “money men” anywhere near a company’s decision making processes).

It ain't the money men you need to scared about its the politicians. They are the ones who I supposed to keeping the money men in check. At the end of the day there's only so much 'cake', artisanal or otherwise, and it can only be sliced so many times before it becomes crumbs. You only have to look at what's happening to open spaces to see that. For a long time seen as the 'cinderella' service it's know got to the point were it's being 'disbanded' as it costs too much. 

[Barry O]

Happy Birthday @Tony_S!

 

As it happens the fist and mog is still in place here... Time to walk to the barbers.. I may be gone for some time  

Baz

[jjb1970]

Happy birthday Tony!!

[Winslow Boy]

59 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

 

It depends. Education is one thing, funding people to compete in sport another. So I have no issue with sports science education,  Just as providing education in music is one thing, subsidising concerts another. If philanthropic sponsors or commercial organizations do it that's their choice but I'm not a fan of the state funding such stuff. Ditto theatre and other entertainment. Museums are more difficult as the state is already a major owner of historic artifacts and cultural items but I also think state museums should charge entry and that those who enjoy and use them should pay a higher part of the cost. 

The problem is that the costs have gone up. This means to be in with a chance/get people through the doors costs more. Organizations are chasing there tails and can't see it getting any better.

[Gwiwer]

1 hour ago, Winslow Boy said:

From what I can recall aren't bus services dependent upon how much the County Council is prepared to subsidise them.

Bus services in the UK usually fall into one of three categories.

 

1.  Those provided commercially with the operator determining the level of service and (unless capped by government decree) the fares, also taking full revenue risk;

2.  Those franchised by a large regional authority (currently London and Manchester within England, plus the Traws-Cambria long-distance services in Wales) where the authority contracts an operator to provide a specified network at designated fares and with the contract effectively specifying a fee-for-service price.  The authority collects revenue and makes good any shortfall to the operator;

3.  "Socially necessary" services which cannot be provided commercially but are deemed by the relevant authority to be necessary and are contracted and funded much as for (2) but on an individual route or journey basis rather than as a network.  Many services which are provided commercially through the day have contracted evening and / or Sunday journeys which may or may not be provided by the same operator / at the same fares / accept the other operator's return tickets.  Some contacted services exist to enhance the commercial service at other times when necessary.  Some of these socially necessary services are provided by local churches and charities often using volunteer drivers.  

 

Many local authorities no longer have funds to support socially necessary services meaning these have been withdrawn in many parts of the country despite the social isolation this causes and the loss of some important links.  A few areas have been consistently good - East Sussex and Devon for example - but their neighbours in Kent and Somerset provide next to no supported services.  What you get is very much a postcode lottery. 

 

1 hour ago, iL Dottore said:

But is there a sensible reliable operator around? 

Yes.  

 

The Go Ahead Group is widely respected as a "good operator".  It is they who run the hugely successful and award-winning Brighton & Hove Bus Company and its sister and neighbour Metrobus who provide services to and around Gatwick and across much of Surrey.  Their Go Plymouth operation has taken over step by step from other operators in that city as they have fallen by the commercial wayside and now extends to places well beyond the city boundaries.  Go Plymouth established a new operation. Go Cornwall, when the unitary Konsel Kernow / Cornwall Council offered all of its "socially necessary" services as one large contract.  Effectively a franchise and replacing many small contracts which occupied a disproportionate amount of staff resources at the council this has become the umbrella "Karyans rag Kernow / Transport for Cornwall" operation.  

 

In a largely rural area most bus services are not commercially viable.  A few make money for a few weeks in summer (if it's a good summer) but lose significantly overall.  Konsel Kernow recognises the need for public transport links and the KrK operation has been largely successful.  It has brought stability and reliability to bus services which has produced an upturn in ridership.  It also happens to be run by a former First Bus manager, Richard Stevens, who was a supervisor at the Camborne depot when I was working there.  He knows his patch and he knows what can - and what cannot sensibly - be done.  Some very unlikely services are maintained with very little use because they form part of a network and because it is a means of getting a bus from A to B and running other routes efficiently.  

 

Our own local route is a commercially-provided one but is known to be a money-loser.  Some of us wold prefer a franchised route with the timetable specified and maintained year to year rather than chopping and changing every few months and of little use to anyone.  The operator tells us they are "meeting customer demand" which clearly they are not.  The customers - or potential customers - are demanding a reliable bus at regular intervals not held hostage to traffic on the busy St. Ives / A30 route and offering trips at useful times.  There is no bus arriving in Penzance between 7.30 and 9.30am for example (other than for students only) making it impossible to consider public transport for working there, shopping, medical appointments and onward morning connections farther afield.  

 

As usual once the car is out the car will go all the way.  Meaning the bus loses out and so does the railway in many cases.  the message is to "use it or lose it" for the bus; we cannot use what we have not got.  

Edited September 2 by Gwiwer

[Gwiwer]

23 minutes ago, Barry O said:

Happy Birthday @Tony_S!

 

As it happens the fist and mog is still in place here

 

Happy Birthday Tony

 

And yes fist and mog is present here too.  In the form of a good Cornish mizzle.  

[polybear]

9 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

Not at all then.

 

Our new bus timetable has been advertised by the operator as having "no significant changes" from yesterday to tomorrow.  The Sunday timetable remains hourly but still ends at around 5pm.  From tomorrow however the hourly weekday service becomes a very irregular service with gaps of anything from 77 to 123 minutes and no standard times "past the hour" at all.  The abandonment of a clock-face timetable also sees a significant reduction in journeys offered.  

 

"Not significant"?  I beg to differ.  There will be even more complaints made in the next few days than there have been all summer.  Since our local route was force-wedded to the Penzance - St Ives route we have suffered no end of missed trips and buses turning up well over a half-hour late.  

 

There are rumours of the First Bus operation walking away from Cornwall altogether; not new rumours as the same was being put about 30 years ago when I was a driver for them.  But with only three or four routes left in the area (the rest being contracted to Go Cornwall, a/k/a the Little Red Buses) and the recent closure of the Helston base the writing may be on the wall this time.  Please go away and allow a sensible, reliable operator to take over.  One who doesn't schedule buses in west Cornwall from an office in Aberdeen using nothing but the accountant's bottom-line for guidance and with no concept of local needs.  

 

Oh.  Another thing.  "Turning up like buses"?  From tomorrow the odd-interval main-road bus will be timed to leave here at the same time as the intermittent round-the-villages little red bus.  So two together then nothing for up to two hours.  And repeat.  Tiz crazy.  

Sadly at the end of the day such routes HAVE to be commercially viable - if not by passenger fares then by subsidies (or a combination of both).  Any other option is likely to be doomed as companies need to at least break even and ideally make a profit- anything else is just commercial suicide.

 

1 hour ago, iL Dottore said:

• fosters entitlement (I turned up, so where’s my reward?)

 Don’t forget the “I’ve paid for my Degree so I’ll bluddy well have it (and it’d better be a First) - so what if I didn’t turn up for lectures or submit coursework?” brigade……