Early Risers.

[Winslow Boy]

2 hours ago, Ozexpatriate said:

Why was it short-lived? 😉

 

Wrong colour.

[Gwiwer]

2 hours ago, Ozexpatriate said:

I can't speak to British custom but as others have said, 'it depends' - largely on the venue. I would think a suit would still be suitable for a traditional church (or equivalent) venue, but I suspect that for many if not most it is no longer 'essential'.

 

The last wedding I attended was in a back yard in summer. I did wear a light sports coat, no tie, and a hat.

It depends.  It depends on a lot.  And it depends, when appropriate, on the wording of an invitation.  

 

Suits for work are rather uncommon now but jacket and tie is still often an expectation.  The lower half might be clad in smart trousers or even (in certain places) smart jeans.  Suits are still required in a few professions such as funeral directors.  

 

Suits for evenings out depend on the evening, the occasion and the venue.  Not by any means expected for a dinner or date with one's better half but often required at the more up-market and glitzy venues and events.  "Black tie" normally means a black tie must be worn ; what you wear with it can be a little flexible but long-sleeve white shirt beneath a smart (usually dark) jacket appropriate to the time of day and with smart dark trousers is the expectation.  

 

I follow the dress code when invited to formal events.  The invite usually specifies.  Often black tie.  Sometimes "smart casual" which to me is pressed shirt with open-neck (no tie) and pressed smart trousers or best-quality jeans.  If there's nothing specified I might ask one or two of the other guests, if I know them well enough, for advice.  Otherwise I'll wing it and hope I pitch right.  "Dress suit" is unusual on invites these days as is "Mourning attire" but both require the full formalities.  "Medals should be worn" doesn't apply to me but indicates a high degree of formality and that the best suit needs to be paraded.  

 

I have been to one beach wedding.  There was no dress code other than what ever you felt comfortable in.  It was perfectly acceptable - indeed it was almost universal among the chaps - to attend in "Hawaiian" shirt and board-shorts.  That's what I did.  The bride and groom were similarly attired but with a few frills and fancy bits.  Just as well as the day turned out to be a scorching 34C in open sun though by late evening (we left the still-swinging party at 1am) it was a much cooler 20C.  

 

If I were  a church-goer these days it would be smart casual attire but no tie and definitely no suit.  I see all sorts striding towards our local from the morning suits to the parenting-suits of whatever isn't in the wash!  

 

And on rare occasions the full Cornish dress comes out.  Kilt, tie and Prince Charlie with all the bits and bobs.  The next scheduled appearance is on March 5th for St. Piran's Day.  

[Winslow Boy]

1 hour ago, polybear said:

 

Bear can do that.....usual commission applies**

(**A slice of LDC for every sale.....🤣)

 

 

PM the details to Bear...I like a challenge.....

 

 

Bear can still get into the (one and only) suit purchased 32 years ago.

 

What all of you at the same time Bear?

[Winslow Boy]

I had to wear either a suit or jacket, tie and smart trousers for work. I have three suits left and a couple of jackets. All of which I can still fit into hence there retention.

 

Managed to only get away with not having to wear a tie, usually when it was extremely hot but usually it was expected even when on site. Nothing gives you away more than  wearing a jacket and tie, particularly when your standing in the middle of a park trying to figure out why something hadn't been done as that. 

 

Steel toe capped shoes and wellies kept in the car for the site inspections so that you didn't get the accusing stare by the admin staff when you got back to the office.

 

Wearing a suit or even smart casual does seem to be dying out - pardon the unintentional pun, even at funerals but not at christenings. However it is sometimes difficult to distinguish between sombre/respectful/smart especially with women where they stray into what I would call 'party dresses'.

 

Nowadays it's usually work trousers and a tee shirt as I'm usually outside, but can scrub up nicely if and when the occasion deserves it.

[woodenhead]

3 hours ago, grandadbob said:

Re suits:  After wearing them for about 30 years of my 38 years at work I now avoid them like the plague apart from weddings, funerals and formal nights on cruises.  Only got 2 now, one lounge and one dinner suit.  Likewise ties which I wore every day at work apart from the last few months leading up to retirement.  Still got an abundance of them but apart from a couple of black ones and two or three others I'm blowed if I know why I keep them all.

Normal attire these days is loose fitting cotton shirts (short sleeved in summer, long sleeved thicker ones in winter) and cargo trousers, joggers (no I don't go)  or shorts.  I don't like tee shirts or jeans any more.

 

When I began work for the bank, you had to put your suit jacket on to change floors - in a building with no customers ever present.

 

My current employer is smart casual in work - so no branded or overly casual stuff but otherwise anything goes.  But, I work from home, so in reality I could work in just my underpants in the summer (the laptop lid is closed).

 

Some recent developments did get me thinking about job interviews, 11 years is a long time since the last and even that was more of a 'we need to see your face to check it matches the recommendation', so what do people in IT wear to interviews these days?

[woodenhead]

6 minutes ago, Winslow Boy said:

Wearing a suit or even smart casual does seem to be dying out - pardon the unintentional pun, even at funerals but not at christenings.
 

Son #1 went to his brother's christening dressed as Scott Tracey, he looked very smart yet very casual 🤣

[Winslow Boy]

5 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

When I began work for the bank, you had to put your suit jacket on to change floors - in a building with no customers ever present.

 

My current employer is smart casual in work - so no branded or overly casual stuff but otherwise anything goes.  But, I work from home, so in reality I could work in just my underpants in the summer (the laptop lid is closed).

 

Some recent developments did get me thinking about job interviews, 11 years is a long time since the last and even that was more of a 'we need to see your face to check it matches the recommendation', so what do people in IT wear to interviews these days?

 

Flip flops and shorts probably.

[Winslow Boy]

1 minute ago, woodenhead said:

Son #1 went to his brother's christening dressed as Scott Tracey, he looked very smart yet very casual 🤣

 

Hope they were pressed. Nothing quite like a sharp crease.

[woodenhead]

7 minutes ago, Winslow Boy said:

 

Flip flops and shorts probably.

Are Hawaiian shirts still a thing?

[PhilJ W]

Goodnight all.

[woodenhead]

6 minutes ago, Winslow Boy said:

 

Hope they were pressed. Nothing quite like a sharp crease.

Haha - his costume did come with an unexpected extra that day - a big dog turd - we hadn't noticed he had not successfully navigated the scattering of little bombs outside the church until it was too late.

[Gwiwer]

16 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

My current employer is smart casual in work - so no branded or overly casual stuff but otherwise anything goes.  But, I work from home, so in reality I could work in just my underpants in the summer (the laptop lid is closed).

I am in a uniformed grade at work though the actual items worn may vary.  Partly because I am also an outside worker so keeping warm for most of the year and cool for the rest of it is particularly important.  In summer it's a short-sleeve shirt (but with top button fastened and tie worn until permission is given otherwise), much of the year it's a long-sleeve shirt, uniform jumper and - if required - a gilet or soft-shell over the top.  In wet weather and winter the anorak comes out.  It covers most of anything underneath and I never have an issue wearing a thick merino sweater which isn't uniform but happens to be the right colour.

 

At least we don't have the ridiculous Australian rule that the jumper must not be worn as the top layer!  If it was worn at all a jacket had to go over it.  We do have jackets but I seldom wear mine for my normal duties.  It comes out for special events such as the Royal Ascot horse-chasing festivities; I also wear a buttonhole for such occasions which is something you very seldom see these days but gets good feedback.  

 

Some of my former Australian colleagues can now work from home.  That wasn't an option when I was there but technology and internet platforms have advanced since then.  One friend made mention on social media that "If it requires a bra or panties it's not going to happen today" when working from home with an outdoor temperature north of 40C.  I gathered she was probably under the air-conditioner starkers in company time and enjoying the fact.  

[BSW01]

Good evening everyone 

 

This morning, we over slept and so we ended up getting out of bed a lot later than we’d originally planned to. So, once up and dressed (I wouldn’t want to frighten the neighbours) I went straight to the workshop to repair a necklace of Sheila’s, which snapped yesterday when she was putting it on. Sheila was convinced it wasn’t repairable, but when I looked at it yesterday I said I could fix it. The repair took about 30 minutes, most of that was drilling out the broken end that was still in the clasp. Once that was done, I applied a small drop of cyanoacrylate, before re-crimping the clasp together. To say she’s over the moon is an understatement and a number of brownie points have been banked. 

 

The rest of the day has been spent emptying one of the tall cupboards in the workshop, as I need to move it, so I can do some much needed repairs to workshop wall, as there is a bit of rotten wood in the corner. I’ve tried using wood hardener and filler, but that didn’t work, so I’m going to cut out the bad sections and splice in some new wood. I’ll need access to both side of the wall, hence the need to move the cupboard. I also suspect that some of the floor may need replacing too. 

 

This evening, I had by monthly chat with my brother in Canada, as usual we just chatted about what we’d both been up to recently, the weather etc. nothing of great importance, but it’s nice to catch up with each other. 

[BSW01]

Goodnight all 

[TheQ]

5 hours ago, tigerburnie said:

I can still get in one of my suits I bought in the mid 1980's, it's a wet suit made from stretchy neoprene.........................

But can you get out of it again without large amounts of Vaseline???

 

 

I need to know, I still have my wet suit hanging in the cupboard...

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by TheQ

[BR60103]

Isaac Asimov (IIRC) designated the Helen as the unit of beauty,

"Was this the face that launched a thousand ships

and burned the topless towers of Ilium?"

The practical unit was the milliHelen, which would launch one ship.

A smaller unit might launch a rowboat and light a match.

 

[iL Dottore]

11 hours ago, The White Rabbit said:

 

I thought it was Dr John Lightfoot, vice chancellor of Cambridge University, who claimed October 23rd... 

 

That's in my copy of 'The Book of Heroic Failures', sub-section 'The art of being wrong', immediately before the entry 'Rail travel at high speed is impossible, because passengers, unable to breathe, would die of asphyxia' (Dr Dionysys Lardner, University College London, as you ask). 

Given the ongoing saga of HS-2, the first part of Dr Dionysis Lardner’s prediction seems remarkably prescient (for the UK 🤣)

 

But, sadly, that’s what you get when you have meddling politicians interfering with wot they should not (most things, really)

[jamie92208]

Good moaning from the Charente.   The fire is being coaxed back into life but will probably be allowed to dievout by mid morning.  It is getting warm these days.  We might even have to cut the grass.  I got my 3rd set of water tank foundations dug and shuttered  yesterday. Today I need to buy some cement then get concrete mixing.  

 

I did get the text of talk that I have to give in April, finished, at least the first proper draft.  Now illustrations need sorting.

 

Ttfn.

 

Jamie

[Barry O]

Ey up!

 

Met some good friends over the last few days but the walkabout must continue.

 

Time to geronwithit.

 

Stay safe!

 

Baz

[jjb1970]

10 hours ago, pH said:

B) To me, this refers to the practical application of the current understanding of scientific knowledge. Yes, it can be thought of as ‘quasi-religious faith’! How many of us have enough scientific knowledge to understand in detail how aircraft stay in the air, or how the internet operates, or how mRNA vaccines work, never mind being able to understand all three things? In my opinion, at some point you have to accept the properly-reviewed opinions of the majority of experts in a field and, if necessary, act on those opinions. You must also be prepared to accept that the “properly-reviewed opinions of the majority of experts in a field” may change, as a result of the application of the scientific method, as described in A).

So I think it’s possible to think as I’ve described about points A) and B) without being ironic.

 

Respecting professional competence is an essential aspect of life for the reasons you state. But scientists, engineers, doctors etc should be able to provide a comprehensible answer to a question, and where there is a divergence of opinion then that should be reflected in available information.

 

Probably the most obvious example is medical treatment recommendations. Few of us are doctors or surgeons, so we have to trust the professional competence of doctors. That does not mean we do not expect the doctor to explain the rationale for a recommended course or treatment or surgical procedure and if we have doubts we should never be afraid to ask for a second opinion. A competent professional should be able to explain something in a way which is comprehensible to a layperson. We may not have the math or underpinning knowledge of physics, chemistry, biology etc to have any illusions about our knowledge, but at a conceptual level it should make sense.

 

I am always minded of RJ Mitchell's words to test pilot Jeffrey Quill:

 

If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: it's all balls.

 

Another issue which is easily overlooked is to ask what is a consensus? That may seem obvious, but is it? There are fields of science in which there is actually very little experimental data and only a handful of papers, but there appears to be an overwhelming body of evidence in support because those experiments and papers have been used in hundreds of papers to promote the same conclusions.

 

A few years ago I was given a package of work by a government regulator to investigate a new technology based on a radically different theory of the behaviour of oil mists and their ignition. The idea was heretical as it challenged universally held assumptions, when I looked into it the experiments supporting the work were performed under controlled conditions and repeatable and the conventional wisdom was based on a single research project performed in the 1950's. I didn't opine whether either was right or wrong (that's not what I was paid to do) but did say that the apparent overwhelming consensus supporting the orthodox theory was questionable and that the revisionist theory could be supported by laboratory experiments and that the supporting analysis was sound. It was a minor issue over something few would ever have heard of, but some of the reaction to the idea of challenging such firmly accepted wisdom was vicious. Why the case is relevant to this discussion was that there was a demand to have the older work codified in regulatory instruments and for the alternative theory to basically be expunged from the record. Now again, whether either is right or wrong is less important in the context of this discussion than that the matter should have been considered as a scientific/engineering debate and not as a reactionary aversion to a new idea which then tried to use regulatory means to settle the dispute. For once I have to lift a hat to the government agency concerned, they kicked back and decided to do a full evaluation which ended up doing a kind of fence sit by accepting safety philosophies based on either concept as being equivalent (which I thought was perfectly sensible based on evidence).

 

All it takes is one dissenting voice to over turn accepted orthodoxy if that voice is right. Most such voices ultimately prove to be rather flawed, but that verdict should follow a robust process to test their hypotheses. 

 

What we have been seeing is suppressing of scientific discussion because counter views are considered dangerous. To be clear those counter views may indeed be unhelpful and ultimately wrong, but in most cases those telling us to listen to the science are not qualified to adjudicate complex scientific arguments. People should have the right to consider the arguments, if they decide to just accept orthodoxy then that's their right but it should not be for anyone to make that decision for us.

 

One question is why? The flat earth idea has been mentioned. Nobody bans proponents of a flat earth because there's no point. I've never considered the matter and so am certainly no expert, but I have never seen or read anything which leads me to believe that the proposition of the earth being flat really merits much thought. There are other debates where I am undecided on outcomes but consider that different ideas have merit.

 

I see it as a bit like the 'if you've got nothing to hide you've got nothing to be worried about' argument. If I ever hear that my instinctive reaction is to take an interest as it is probably a power grab. If people retreat into telling us to listen to the science and then try to control a debate then that's a huge red flag. It may be that the position being promoted is the most appropriate one, but I wouldn't arrive at that conclusion based on just accepting what we are told.

[Ozexpatriate]

8 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Some recent developments did get me thinking about job interviews, 11 years is a long time since the last and even that was more of a 'we need to see your face to check it matches the recommendation', so what do people in IT wear to interviews these days?

In my last in-person interview, I wore a jacket and tie (but not a suit). Most of the interviews I have attended post the onset of the pandemic were virtual, video webconferences from home. To these I wear a pressed, collared shirt. No jacket, no tie.  Male interviewers are likely to wearing jeans/polo shirt.

 

In my customer-facing career 30 years ago in the mid-west, I wore suits with a tie. The west coast is more casual and in later years this became a sports coat, no tie. Jeans were normal in the office when not facing customers. 

 

Customers would express a reluctance to have visitors in suits - not wanting to give their colleagues the impression that some visiting executives were present to implement lay-offs.

 

I fondly remember a (humourous) multimedia guide to business attire. It was actually written by people I worked with but delivered at a large company event by a senior VP. It poked fun at different interpretations of dress code by different organizational roles in different regions.

 

Too long and tedious to relate (and one of those 'you had to be there' moments) but a couple of highlights were:

- Korean sales business attire: Starched white shirt with dark tie

- Korean sales Friday casual: Starched light blue shirt with dark tie.

The final punchline was IT business casual: with a cartoon of someone naked in front of their computer.

[grandadbob]

Good morning all,

Blue sky and sunshine here and a dry day with sunny spells expected.  3°C rising to 11°C.

We need to go out on a bread run walk this morning and I will try to get a bit further than yesterday.  Still got some DIY stuff to do but have to find the mojo first.

Apart from that nothing else on the agenda...yet.

Have a good one,

Bob.

 

 

[PhilJ W]

Morning all from Estuary-Land. The cold is still lingering so after a drink I'm going back to bed.

[The Lurker]

Greetings all from a Sidcup where the day has dawned sunny and blue-skied but where work clouds the horizon as usual!

 

When I work in the office I wear a shirt and suit but no tie which seems to be what was acceptable in our place for a number of years before lockdown. In theory I might wear a tie for a visitor but in practice, no.

I have had one teams interview since lockdown started and put a shirt on for that; otherwise I wear casual stuff at home.

 

I have a conceptual issue with "smart casual". For me, either you're smart or you're casual - they feel mutually exclusive. Seeing as I have to wear a suit for work and have had to for all my career, most often with a tie, being smart does not feel casual, and I feel no need to dress up to go out unless someone insists. We went to Theo Randall's place for Mrs Lurker's birthday last year and the dress code there was "smart casual". I found a pair of trousers that weren't jeans and wore one of my few non-work shirts on an incredibly hot day - and was quite miffed to see that someone else had interpreted smart casual as a hawaiian shirt, shorts and flip-flops. I presume he was a hotel guest (the restaurant is in the Intercontinental) so would not be turned away. Incidentally, I recommend the restaurant - great food, attentive but not intrusive service, wine reasonably priced. I believe it has a michelin star

 

[iL Dottore]

1 hour ago, PhilJ W said:

Morning all from Estuary-Land. The cold is still lingering so after a drink I'm going back to bed.

Surely Phil, custom dictates no alcohol until the sun is over the yard arm?*

Unless you’re having your pint of grog -which I understand can be issued at any time of day.

* according to my maternal grandfather who was in the RN in WWII. He also introduced me to what he claimed was a staple on the Murmansk run - very strong tea with a very generous tot of rum in it, and enough condensed milk and sugar to allow the spoon to pretty much stand up by itself. He claimed that was the only thing that would really warm them up after completing a watch.

Edited February 13, 2023 by iL Dottore