Early Risers.

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, iL Dottore said:

I'm not too sure about that. A version of that worked for the Romans (25 years in the army, then Roman citizenship and a plot of land upon discharge)

 

It would have to be set up carefully in order to avoid what you fear.

 

It can be done: Switzerland supplied mercenaries to Europe for centuries without being overrun by violent criminal gangs of former mercenaries 

 

Citizenship and a land grant in the province where they last served. Admittedly, 25 years service with a citizenship and land honeypot at the end might knock a few rough edges off the survivors.  Few returned to Italy, or Rome itself. 

 

As for the Swiss mercenaries, what percentage survived to return home after service abroad? After all, if the enemy didn't get you, the dysentry would...

 

 

Edited August 29 by Hroth
tidy up phrasing

[Ozexpatriate]

8 hours ago, iL Dottore said:

Japan has absolutely no natural resources

They had coal and plenty of it, mined in Hokkaido. What they needed was metals, rubber, petroleum, etc. See "Pig iron Bob".

 

When Naval aviators from Task Force 38 sunk nine of the Seikan N.R. rail ferries from Hokkaido to Honshu in mid-July 1945, which dramatically curtailed coal supplies to Honshu, the Japanese ability to prosecute the war was effectively ended - despite all the drama around "Ketsu go". Other things would play out in August of 1945.

[Ozexpatriate]

6 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

I guess one lesson of history is it's a lot easier to get into a war than get out of one.

Allegedly the Duke of Wellington said that about Afghanistan.

 

[The Lurker]

I just checked the cricket score.

 

ROOOOOT!

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, Hroth said:

 

Citizenship and a land grant in the province where they last served. Admittedly, 25 years service with a citizenship and land honeypot at the end might knock a few rough edges off the survivors.  Few returned to Italy, or Rome itself. 

 

As for the Swiss mercenaries, what percentage survived to return home after service abroad? After all, if the enemy didn't get you, the dysentry would...

 

 

Most legionaries didn't start from Rome, either.

[Ozexpatriate]

2 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

Operation Sealion would have failed anyway

Happily, that's a hypothetical. It's hard to objectively measure how well, soon after Dunkerque, the British army was ready (organized and equipped) to repel invaders.

 

Despite the moat, some small-scale invasions of England were astonishingly successful - like Caesar and the Normans. Could an invading force have pressed on to London (or Windsor) and forced a capitulation?  A decapitation strategy is the only one that would have succeeded. It worked in France. The channel coast is much closer to London than Paris was to Belgium.

 

To foster a non-compliance mindset in case of invasion is what Churchill's, "never surrender" speech (May 1940) was all about. Not to mention the planned "keep calm" campaign.

 

Edited August 29 by Ozexpatriate

[Ian Abel]

BIN day... well, since we made an "error" last time it was recycling week, the recycle was overflowing this week!! Other than that faux pas, BINs serviced as expected/intended.

 

Yesterday, nothing particularly noteworthy, just working and post work chores.

 

Today, work again, then another happy hour get-together with some choir friends.

 

Weather, still more pleasant than the first part of the week, 19c at BIN time, 30c the expected high. Rain expected, possibly heavy starting late afternoon through evening.

 

Tally ho.

[DaveF]

I spent most of the morning and part of the afternoon captioning and doing precise locations for a batch of photos which have now been e mailed to their recipient.  I had a short break for coffee and a chat with a friend, as usual we put the world to rights.

 

Once the photos were dealt with I decided to go out but nearly didn't get very far.  At the first roundabout the person in the car just in front of me signalled left and moved to the left.  Fortunately the approach isn't quite two cars wide.  As he started to move forward I followed but going right.  He then swung to the right while signalling left and went off happily along the road.  If there road had been a foot wider I'd have been alongside him and he would have hit me.

 

I went to Seaton Delaval Hall (National Trust) and had a pleasant walk around parts of the gardens and buildings.  I say part as a lot seemed to be dedicated to childrens' activities.  I must have had a deprived childhood, where I lived and visited we didn't have childrens running tracks, miniature golf courses, football goals on nice grass, spaces to run about, toys and an adventure playground.  When I was young In our local park there were swings and a slide.  Football was played with goals chalked on a garden wall.  We were not allowed to shout and were told not to run into other people.

 

The place is typical National Trust, a number of rooms seem to have conservation work ongoing in them and one nice room is being used as a "collection store".  However some of the information signs had good information and there was a National Trust guide doing a well explained guided tour - I listened to part of it.  Even the volunteers in most of the rooms knew a bit.  All being well there will be some photos tomorrow.

 

I was back home for tea and then picked some tomaotoes.  I took the surplus to a neighbour who isn't growing any this year and we had a good natter, hence this post being later than usual.

 

David

Edited August 29 by DaveF

[polybear]

Bear here....

 

W/H Day yet again - and a D-Day too 😁 (though rumour has it that A Certain Bear *may* have cheated a little by stocking up with Team Donuts during an early morning raid of Murrysun's on the way in.....). 

 

On Tuesday I spotted that someone had donated a rather nice, signed Ltd. Ed. print (in a very nice frame) by a certain Mr. Cuneo depicting a rather nice large French Steam Choo Choo; Bear subsequently set a "search" on the Ebay Shop ready for when it was listed (I was in "ponder mode" as it wasn't a British Choo Choo....).  Such things tend to sell "low" (and often not at all - or requiring multiple attempts) as the big, fragile stuff (glass, in this case) usually makes them "collect only" - meaning they have a far smaller number of interested people prepared to bid on them (simply because they live too far away to collect).

 

What do I hear today?  Well it seems that one of those at the Empire (no names - but not one of the W/H Team) made a suitable donation for it pre-Ebay.  Fair enough - but.....he wants it for the Frame.....😱

 

Fortunately Bear has managed to mention this to the right people - as a consequence he's happy to hand over the print; hopefully he'll remove it from the frame with the care it deserves.  A real bluddy shame all the same though - if I'd known that was gonna happen then I would've done a deal for it there and then.  Turdycurses.

 

BG 

 

[Hroth]

2 hours ago, rockershovel said:

Most legionaries didn't start from Rome, either.

 

I didn't want to complicate matters. 🙂

But the citizenship offer was an advantage when they completed their 25.

 

[rockershovel]

13 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

I didn't want to complicate matters. 🙂

But the citizenship offer was an advantage when they completed their 25.

 

British Museum website states that a retiring Roman legionary received a pension equal to 10 years salary

[BoD]

36 minutes ago, DaveF said:

 

I went to Seaton Delaval Hall (National Trust) and had a pleasant walk around parts of the gardens and buildings.  I say part as a lot seemed to be dedicated to childrens' activities.  I must have had a deprived childhood, where I lived and visited we didn't have childrens running tracks, miniature golf courses, football goals on nice grass, spaces to run about, toys and an adventure playground. 

National Trust properties have, for a while, put on activities aimed at young people during school holidays but it seems that their official policy is now a big push to attract this much younger audience with permanent displays and activities.  I’m not saying that this is necessarily a bad idea, indeed it might be considered very good policy indeed and about time too, but sometimes it is  to the disadvantage of core members and detrimental to the very things that they are trying to conserve.

[KeithMacdonald]

4 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

even the feint of trying to convince the British that the invasion would be on the east coast didn't work.

 

The nearest they got to that was "The Eagle Has Landed".

Fortunately Jenny Agutter saved the day (again).

 

[KeithMacdonald]

4 hours ago, Hroth said:

Citizenship and a land grant in the province where they last served. Admittedly, 25 years service with a citizenship and land honeypot at the end might knock a few rough edges off the survivors.  Few returned to Italy, or Rome itself. 

 

It was normal practice for Roman army veterans to receive an honourable discharge after 25 years service, and receive a diplomata (documents issued to retiring soldiers). What happened next? Did they all leave Britain as well? Or did they decided to stay in Britain? Recent DNA profiling suggests that at least some Roman Auxiliary units decided they liked Britain well enough to stay, settle down with local women, and spread their DNA in specific parts of Britain. The pioneer of this kind of DNA detective work, for British origins, has been Stephen Oppenheimer with his ground-breaking work "The Origins of the British" (2006).

 

One year later, Steven Bird published his work on the DNA of Roman Army units in Britain:

 

Quote

Haplogroup E3b1a2 as a Possible Indicator of Settlement in Roman Britain by Soldiers of Balkan Origin: The invasion of Britain by the Roman military in CE 43, and the subsequent occupation of Britain for nearly four centuries, brought thousands of soldiers from the Balkan peninsula to Britain as part of auxiliary units and as regular legionnaires. The presence of Haplogroup E3b1a-M78 among the male populations of present-day Wales, England and Scotland, and its nearly complete absence among the modern male population of Ireland, provide a potential genetic indicator of settlement during the 1st through 4th Centuries CE by Roman soldiers from the Balkan peninsula and their male Romano-British descendants.
Ref : Journal of Genetic Genealogy. 3(2):26-46, 2007
Haplogroup E3b1a2 as a Possible Indicator of Settlement in Roman Britain by Soldiers of Balkan Origin

 

Where did they comes from?

 

Quote

E3b1a2 is found to be at its highest frequency worldwide in the geographic region corresponding closely to the ancient Roman province of Moesia Superior, a region that today encompasses Kosovo, southern Serbia, northern Macedonia and extreme northwestern Bulgaria.

 

Where did they end up?

 

Quote

The frequency of E3b in Britain was observed to be most prevalent in two regions; a geographic cluster of haplotypes extending from Wales eastward to the vicinity of Nottingham, encompassing the region surrounding Chester, and a second (NNE to SSW) cluster extending from Fakenham, Norfolk to Midhurst, Sussex.

 

(c) Steven Bird, Journal of Genetic Genealogy. 3(2):26-46, 2007
Haplogroup E3b1a2 as a Possible Indicator of Settlement in Roman Britain by Soldiers of Balkan Origin

This figure, from the article by Steven Bird, most clearly shows the hot-spots of these Balkan genes in Britain.

 

[Andy Hayter]

Fascinating stuff @KeithMacdonald but it doesn't answer the question of whether they stayed only that they procreated in the UK.  (They probably did stay in numbers but that is conjecture.) 

 

On retirement, the majority would have been in the 40 to 50 year old range possibly older and so beginning to be getting beyond the age of successful procreation.  So, I suggest, the depth of the gene pool would certainly point to significant levels of mating while in service to the Roman Empire rather than necessarily after.  

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

Fascinating stuff @KeithMacdonald but it doesn't answer the question of whether they stayed only that they procreated in the UK.  (They probably did stay in numbers but that is conjecture.) 

 

On retirement, the majority would have been in the 40 to 50 year old range possibly older and so beginning to be getting beyond the age of successful procreation.  So, I suggest, the depth of the gene pool would certainly point to significant levels of mating while in service to the Roman Empire rather than necessarily after.  

 

Legionaries and auxilliaries could not legally marry but it seems the evidence is that many were in steady relationships that were formalised as marriages on discharge, so any children were legitimised - or could simply be adopted.

[PhilJ W]

Evening all from Estuary-Land. Watched the cricket highlights and now will soon be watching WDYTYA, Mel C (Sporty Spice) is the subject tonight.

[KeithMacdonald]

1 hour ago, Andy Hayter said:

On retirement, the majority would have been in the 40 to 50 year old range possibly older and so beginning to be getting beyond the age of successful procreation.  So, I suggest, the depth of the gene pool would certainly point to significant levels of mating while in service to the Roman Empire rather than necessarily after.  

 

Bronze military diplomata (documents issued to retiring soldiers)

 

The diplomata were issued as formal retirement papers, proving that the soldiers had received an honourable discharge from the Roman Army. It also “granted Roman citizenship to retiring soldiers after twenty-five years of service”. An example was found near Malpas in Cheshire (now in the British Museum, item no.1813.12‐11.1‐2 in the Department of Prehistory and Early Europe). The translation by Collingwood in 1990 specifically mentions many different units serving in Britain, from different sources.

 

Quote

The Emperor Caesar Nerva Traianus Augustus, conqueror of Germany, conqueror of Dacia, son of The Emperor Caesar Nerva Traianus Augustus, conqueror of Germany, conqueror of Dacia, son of the deified Nerva, pontifex maximus, in his seventh year of tribunician power, four times acclaimed Imperator, five times consul, father of his country, has granted to the cavalrymen and infantrymen who are serving in four alae and eleven cohorts called: (1) {ala} I Thracum and (2) I Pannoniorum Tampiana and (3) Gallorum Sebosiana and (4) Hispanorum Vettonum, Roman citizens; and (I) {cohor} I Hispanorum and (2) I Vangionum, a thousand strong, and (3) I Alpinorum and (4) I Morinorum and (5) I Cugernorum and (6) I Baetasiorum and (7) I Tungrorum, a thousand strong, and (8) II Thracum and (9) III Bracaraugustanorum and (10) III Lingonum and (11) IIII Delmatarum, and are stationed in Britain under Lucius Neratius Marcellus,

 

Quote

(These) who have served twenty-five or more years, whose names are written below, citizenship for themselves, their children and descendants, and the right of legal marriage with the wives they had when citizenship was granted to them, or, if any were unmarried, with those they later marry, but only a single one each. {Dated} 19 January, in the consulships of Manius Laberius Maximus and Quintus Glitius Atilius Agricola, both for the second time [CE 103]. To Reburrus, son of Severus, from Spain, decurion of ala I Pannoniorum Tampiana, commanded by Gaius Valerius Celsus.

 

There's a lot there; here's my best guess at what that means in today's currency:

 

Roman name
Current place or country

Thracum/ThraciaSouthern Balkans = Western Turkey

Pannoniorum = TampianaPannonia perhaps?

Gallorum = SebosianaGerman?

Hispanorum Vettonum = Vettones tribe of Lusitania in Hispania (Salamanca in Spain)

Vangionum = Vangiones were a Belgic tribe from the upper Rhine

Alpinorum = Western Alpine

Morinorum = Morini tribe, from Belgica province around Gesoriacum (Boulogne, France)

Cugernorumn = Cugerni tribe of Germania Inferior

Baetasiorum = Baetasii tribe "inhabiting the lands between the Rhine and the Meuse to the immediate west of Novaesium in Germania Inferior"

Tungrorum = Gallia Belgica, today eastern Belgium and the southern Netherlands

Bracaraugustanorum = cavalry from Gallaecia, now northern Portugal

Lingonum = Gaul "in the area of the headwaters of the Seine and Marne rivers"

Delmatarum = Dalmatia (Croatia)

[southern42]

3 hours ago, DaveF said:

I went to Seaton Delaval Hall (National Trust) and had a pleasant walk around parts of the gardens and buildings.  I say part as a lot seemed to be dedicated to childrens' activities.  I must have had a deprived childhood, where I lived and visited we didn't have childrens running tracks, miniature golf courses, football goals on nice grass, spaces to run about, toys and an adventure playground.  When I was young In our local park there were swings and a slide.  Football was played with goals chalked on a garden wall.  We were not allowed to shout and were told not to run into other people.

 

Ah, but I bet that made you more imaginative and creative in your play. How many kids these days do you see racing around in homebuilt-from-scrap go-karts these days? One of the, possibly, unsafest "play" areas I remember was a new housing development at the end of our road. Turned out to be maisonettes. It was our playing field which had suddenly become a rabbit's warren of trenches and piled up places to hide in/behind playing "cowboys and Indians" or "Robin Hood". The best we had was a large pile of bricks stacked like a solid cubed wall, well over 6ft high with a "hole" in the middle at half height into which we climbed and sat, presumably chatting (memory is not complete!). I did wonder as I got older, whether there was any danger of roof fall! No building site barricades in those days!

 

[KeithMacdonald]

There's a hell of a lot of long-distance traveling to work there. This is just one diplomata, and it mentions thousands of Roman army veterans settling in Britain. How many more diplomata were there, with how many more thousands of veterans? Frere et al., stated that

 

Quote

less than 20% of diploma recipients moved out of the province in which they had served upon retirement.
(RIB,v.II,2401.5,p.12).

 

In short, most stayed. This includes the famous Thracian cavalry units, who stayed and became Native Brits. All well before 410AD when Britain ceased to be an official part of the Roman Empire and was left to its own devices. These Thracian cavalry units have a large part to play in the genesis of Arthurian legends as well, right up to the modern day. e.g. the 2004 film "King Arthur".

 

Quote

The film is unusual in reinterpreting Arthur as a Roman officer rather than a medieval knight. Despite these departures from the source material, the Welsh Mabinogion, the producers of the film attempted to market it as a more historically accurate version of the Arthurian legends.

 

These people settled and provided continuity and stability to the communities they formed or joined, in many parts of Britain, such as Essex.

 

Quote

Dark (2002, pp. 97-100) has theorized that sub-Roman Essex may have survived intact until the sixth century and that the civilian authority may have transitioned smoothly from sub-Roman to Saxon authority without any evidence of struggle or the displacement of the local Romano-British population. Drury and Rodwell (1980, p.71) have provided similar evidence for the survival of sub-Roman Essex well into the Anglo-Saxon period.
Ref : Dark K (2002) Britain and the End of the Roman Empire.

 

The implication is that there was no Dark Age as such. See Mind The Gap! Or, the Great Myth of the Dark Ages. Just much-less written communication being sent back to Rome to provide a continuous written history. But Hadrian’s Wall deserves special mention, as it one piece of Roman Britain that is very well documented.

 

Quote

Hadrian was the greatest builder in history … Following the peace that he declared, the soldiers of Rome were left without a livelihood. The large building projects offered employment to the soldiers and the placement of the temples at the corners of the Empire delineated the borders of the Hellenistic culture and kept the soldiers along the border areas, far from Rome.

 

Some of the veteran Romans (from the army and auxiliary) had already retired, or had been made redundant or pensioned-off by Hadrian when he started fixing the boundaries and stopped trying to expand the Empire. This raises the firm possibility that Hadrian's Wall in Britain was not built for overtly military reasons, but to keep idle Roman troops busy with civil engineering projects. Especially as military engineering skills readily adapted to civil engineering skills.

 

Quote

The troops who manned the wall, it must be remembered, were drawn from all parts of the Roman Empire; and the bulk of these forces lived here for the next 300 years or so, intermarrying freely with the British inhabitants, and regarding Northumberland and Cumberland as their home, where they continued to live after their discharge. Thus it can be stated as a matter beyond doubt that the modern inhabitants of these counties are in large part directly descended from the Roman troops; and the curious mixture of blood which must have resulted will be realized when it is remembered that here were garrisoned generations of Asturians from Spain, Batavians from the lower Rhine, cornovii from Shropshire, Dalmatians from the Adriatic, Dacians from Rumania, Frisians from Holland, Gauls, Lingones from Langres in France, Tungrians from Tongres in Belgium, and so forth.
Ref: Wanderings in Roman Britain

 

[PupCam]

Evening

 

13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

It is not just the second-hand smoke that is offensive but the smell of the habitual smoker. 

 

That is true but that is a very, very slippery slope.    The body odour from many railway modellers packed into a large hall, wielding  rucksacks is quite offensive too.

 

9 hours ago, Tony_S said:

I have collected Aditi.  She is sitting in a darkened room. Her fields test took a while, she is ”trigger happy”. Also her Ramipril side effect cough caused an interruption . Eyes fine, no new spectacles required. 
I have been working on the “Death in the Community” flow chart this morning for Aditi’s brother. He  asked for a few additions to the diagram I did earlier. 

 

Ramipril is well known for it and other side effects too, in my case a congested nose leading to snoring as well as the cough.    The association between cause and effect was only made when my medication was being juggled following my great inconvenience.   Alternative meds eliminated the problem completely.   Our resident pharmacist @Erichill16 maybe able to confirm my suspicion that Ramprill is the cheapest of that class of medication and the GoTo prescription.   Cynical moi?   I would recommend to those affected that they talk to their doctors to explore more suitable alternatives and don't put up with the cheap stuff.

 

ION

 

It has to be said that it has not been a very productive day.   However it has been a most enjoyable day, catching up with various bodies including some ex GE biking colleagues.    Solid and liquid refreshments may have been consumed.    Unfortunately travel was by car not bike because a) I can't get my crash helmet on at the moment and b) it was dark by the time we would be leaving.   You'll recall Puppers doesn't do dark (or wet) on a motorcycle.

 

Anyway.   After all that gassing it must be bed time!

 

Night All.

 

 

Edited August 29 by PupCam

[enz]

8 hours ago, iL Dottore said:

It could also offer young offenders a way out: of cycle of criminal behaviour and incarceration: the choice of either prison time in a Terran prison hellhole or the chance of redemption, a clean post-service record and a cash award for volunteering as a mercenary (IF they survive to collect the rewards).

 

 

Believe something of this style is in use in Russia - volunteer for the Special Military Action and get out of prison.  Life (or death) reflecting Art?

[PhilJ W]

Goodnight all.

[southern42]

' evening all from red dragon land.

 

Interesting day, including an online chat with some friends. Of course, I was late to join in...the sun refused to come out and feed the battery, so I had to wait for its appearance so I could use the washing machine. That then needed emptying and the washing put outside to dry and that all happened as the meeting started. Half way through the meeting, I had a wotsapp from Mr Suvvern saying it was raining in Betws-y-coed, where he was cleaning out the steam l*c* ready for Sunday, and I should keep an eye out - IOW bring the washing in if need be! I looked out and it was fine - wall to wall blue sky and sunshine.

Before and after the meeting, I managed to fit in a bit of TOTF🎶. This is where it gets wicked. The new chapter is still in three speeds but faster! When I saw the tutor play the third speed I laughed. When I actually played it myself I was laughing even more. Ridiculous, I thought. Did I just play that? It was only a few notes up, then down, but it's a start.

 

One of my favourite flute players, who I discovered played some Irish music, had one of his band members laughing...and I could not help remembering him...keep your eye out for the guitarist!  When I first saw this, I never dreamt I would be even contemplating this sort of speed, let alone playing it! I will keep you posted...!

 

Well, beddy byes time has crept up on me, again, so ' night all and nos da.

Polly

 

Oh, and I have got one of those flutes, for anyone totting up mine @iL Dottore! A Yamaha, plastic C fife.

Edited August 30 by southern42
Post script!

[Tony_S]

25 minutes ago, PupCam said:

Ramipril is well known for it and other side effects too,

Ramipril works well for me and the cough side effect eventually ceased. I can only have half the normal adult dose due to impaired kidney function. Aditi is going through the steadily increasing dose routine at present. She has just got her asthmatic cough sorted with a new medication and then gets Ramipril. She went for a Covid jab at Boots  earlier this year, accepted a blood pressure check , and was then contacted by the GP to come and start some treatment. She used to have low blood pressure. I don’t think living with me is the cause of the increase!