Early Risers.

[Ozexpatriate]

13 minutes ago, Barry O said:

Paper data doesn't always show the true facts. (Particularly top speeds) and no mention of manoueverability)

Sure.

Quote

 The P-40 usually had an advantage over the Bf 109 in turning, dive speed and structural strength, was roughly equal in firepower but was slightly inferior in speed and outclassed in rate of climb and operational ceiling

Hurricane

Quote

As a fighter, the Hurricane had some drawbacks. It was slightly slower than both the Spitfire I and II and the Messerschmitt Bf 109E, and the thicker wing profiles compromised acceleration; but it could out-turn both of them. 

Comparable.

[New Haven Neil]

Morning, from a damp and chilly rock, drizzle and 10c.

 

It is cold and wet because..........The TT starts today with first practice for the Pre-TT Classic - we'll be off down way down south to Castletown this evening to view proceedings, and hopefully meet up with some friends that race sidecars. Mad.

 

ION after waiting in all day for the vet to call, he did (not my doctor but another I haven't previously heard of - locum?) at 5.30 pm. What a waste of a day, they couldn't even indicate if the call would be AM or PM. (Mobile signal up north here unreliable - well non-existent almost - so have to be near the land line).  Some medication changes discussed and actioned, apparently I'm still alive.  

[jjb1970]

3 hours ago, Ozexpatriate said:

How so?

 

Yes it was successful in Taranto against a static Italian fleet in a surprise attack. The got extremely lucky with Bismarck with torpedoes that "almost" missed - probably aiming amidships and managed to hit the rudder.

 

I didn't think that RN aircraft carriers were deployed as convoy escorts. That may be ignorance on my part, but they needed a carrier to function. I presume you are talking about the MAC ships that flew Swordfish.  According to this there were 19 of them built/converted carrying perhaps four Swordfish each.

 

By then, there was a lot more convoy support infrastructure compared with the desperation of 1940-41 - with US assets in the Western Atlantic - like the Goodyear K-class blimps as observation platforms as soon as 1942, and a lot more long-range aircraft (British and US built) including of course the Short Sunderland - of which there were only 39 at the start of hostilities yet 749 would eventually be built.

 

The Swordfish on the MACs were very much a hand-me-down, with the MAC ships not entering service until 1943 where the obsolescence of the Swordfish was painfully obvious.

 

The MACs made themselves very useful as aircraft ferries.

 

There were only five catapult ships converted around 1940/41 and only two combat launches are reported here.

 

 

The Swordfish was the principal RN ASW aircraft for much of the Atlantic campaign. They were capable of operating from escort carriers in hostile conditions against U Boats. Equipped with ASV radar their main contribution wasn't so much to destroy U Boats but to keep them below the surface by offering the potential to hit them with rockets or depth bombs. It was a role where it's simple ruggedness and operability from small and basic vessels such as MAC ships and escort carriers counted for much more than it's slow speed. With ASV radar, rockets and depth bombs it was as effective as any other aircraft providing convoy air support. 

Edited May 24 by jjb1970

[iL Dottore]

16 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

Bismarck and Yamato must be the ultimate clichés of ship modelling, done to death.

 

3 hours ago, Erichill16 said:

And 4472?

OK, I’ll bite.

To the Bismarck, Yamato and the Flying Money Pit I would add:

• AIRCRAFT: Me109, Spitfire Mk I to V, Hurricane (early variants), P51, Lancaster Bomber, FW 190
• ARMOUR: Tiger, Panther, T34, Sherman, Pzkw Mk IV
• RAILWAYS: Castle Class locos, Mk 1 coaching stock, A4 (Mallard etc), Deltic, Class 08 Shunter, Class 125
• SHIPS: Titanic, HMS Victory, USS Enterprise, Cutty Sark

I’m sure that there are many others.

 

Over to you!

[jjb1970]

2 hours ago, Ozexpatriate said:

They didn't need tanks in Malaya, the Dutch East Indies, New Guinea, the Solomons or the Philippines.

 

 

Where the obsolescence of their army was critical was in Manchuria. In 1940,41 Japan considered several strategic options in 1941 including a Northern one against the USSR but it seems their experiences in 1939 left a lasting impact and awareness of their technical inferiority relative to the Soviet army was a significant contributory factor to their decision to strike South West against the European SE Asian posessions and the Philippines. That also had a significant impact on the European war as Stalin moved much of his Sibeian army west in 1941 and never had to worry about his rear.

[jjb1970]

The Cromwell tank gets a bad deal really. It's armour wasn't great but it had a decent dual purpose gun which if not very good against the Tiger or Panther frontal armour could take out other German vehicles found in much greater quantity and with a good HE shell for soft targets. Where it excelled was mobility. The RR Meteor engine, Merritt-Brown transmission and modified Christie suspension gave it outstanding performance and it proved capable of operating over long distances reliably. By comparison the Panther had superb frontal protection and an outstanding gun but despite good paper performance it's transmission was poor and the installation meant repairs weren't easy. The Jadgpanther was probably the best tank destroyer of the war when it worked but it also had chronic reliability issues.

[Ozexpatriate]

13 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

RAILWAYS: Castle Class locos

Hey! You stop right there mister. 😉

 

There's a lot more A4s out there than Castles. Though it does raise the question of the total number that were manufactured. I'm not sure all those years of Hornby Albert Halls don't outnumber the Castles or Kings cumulatively.

 

Plenty of UP Big Boys too.

[Ozexpatriate]

15 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

Where the obsolescence of their army was critical was in Manchuria.

They certainly folded up like a cheap suit in 1945 after Potsdam - resulting in the DPRK. The whole of the Korean peninsular would have been a weird Soviet satellite had MacArthur not landed US troops in Inchon in 1945 - and would do it again in 1950.

[polybear]

8 hours ago, Winslow Boy said:

Iris retinculata I think?

 

A green & purple** one with little yellow bits

(**sometimes the purple might be white though).

 

I reckon the Beary system works best...... 

 

2 hours ago, Ozexpatriate said:

I didn't think that RN aircraft carriers were deployed as convoy escorts. That may be ignorance on my part, but they needed a carrier to function. I presume you are talking about the MAC ships that flew Swordfish.  According to this there were 19 of them built/converted carrying perhaps four Swordfish each.

 

 

The Pedestal Convoy from Gib. to Malta certainly included a Carrier:

 

"The most famous convoy is the PEDASTAL convoy that departed Gibraltar on 10 August 1942. This would be the last convoy to face strong enemy opposition. Out of the fourteen merchant ships that left Gibraltar, only five arrived at Valletta Harbour in Malta. The cost to the Royal Navy was the aircraft carrier HMS Eagle, two cruisers, and one destroyer."

 

(HMS Ark Royal was also used on Malta Convoy duties; she was eventually being lost in Nov 1941 after ferrying more aircraft to Malta).

 

Incidentally, it's worth Googlin' the S.S. Ohio on the Malta Convoy:

 

"Captain Mason's GC was not only for his personal courage and determination but for his crew. Other gallantry awards to the crew of Ohio during Operation Pedestal included a Distinguished Service Order, five Distinguished Service Crosses and seven Distinguished Service Medals. After his investiture in September 1942, Mason had a long private audience with the King.  He was also awarded the Lloyd's War Medal for Bravery at Sea".

 

It's amazin' what a Bear can learn whilst on Hols....... 

 

1 hour ago, iL Dottore said:

When the SS shot prisoners of war during the invasion of France during a fast moving campaign, it was a war crime; when the Allies shot prisoners of war captured just behind the Normandy beaches, it was the exigencies of war.

 

Really?

 

Moral and ethical relativism is nothing new…

 

Ah, but the SS were shootin' the Goodies**, whereas the Allies were shootin' the Baddies.  Big difference......

 

(**No, not Bill Oddie & Co.....)

[grandadbob]

Good morning all,

Sunny start to the day here but it may cloud over later with the odd shower possible.  12°C rising to 20°C.

I spent a pleasant afternoon yesterday in The Shed playing with the toys and listening to some loud rock music.  In the evening I watched a couple of recorded programmes. I've got lots of stuff recorded but with the changeover of the TV box all this will be lost but it seems a lot of it is on demand anyway.

Today "we" will continue with the great house cleanse and we've got to pay a visit to Asda.  It's all happening here.

After lunch I may well pay another visit to The Shed.

Ah, here She is..."timetogettamoveon."

Have a good one,

Bob.

[polybear]

28 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

 

OK, I’ll bite.

• RAILWAYS: Castle Class locos, ..........

 

They were consigned to target duties for kids armed with Air Rifles and Catapults........

[iL Dottore]

4 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

Ah, but the SS were shootin' the Goodies**, whereas the Allies were shootin' the Baddies.  Big difference......

No there isn't. Either shooting prisoners of war after they have surrendered is wrong or it is not. Full Stop.

 

Don't forget that with moral relativism today's "goodies" are tomorrow's "baddies" (and vice versa).

 

Or have you forgotten how the Soviet Union was one of Britain's greatest friends and allies until it wasn't???

[polybear]

Bear here......

 

Today?  Well a sh1t load of ironing to do ☹️ (one of the downsides of goin' on Hols - I wear stuff that needs ironing) then it's MIUABGAD; I've still got sorting of the Hols. bag to do before it's squirrelled away until "next time" as well.

 

On the subject of "next time" .....I do have an apartment booked in Lisbon but can still cancel it for free for a different place (or indeed a different location/country); I want to have a ponder this weekend to decide if Lisbon is a good idea or if somewhere else might be better.  Hmmm.....

 

BG

[Ozexpatriate]

4 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

Or have you forgotten how the Soviet Union was one of Britain's greatest friends and allies

That relationship was quite frosty. FDR was often the mediator between WSC and Joe at their periodic get-togethers, not to mention the "Favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons" remark.

 

There was a lot of tension in those meetings, with Joe being very unhappy with the UK PM.

 

[polybear]

13 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

No there isn't. Either shooting prisoners of war after they have surrendered is wrong or it is not. Full Stop.

 

 

But in all the movies the SS turn up at the Police Station/POW Camp etc. in big black cars and then go shootin' the Goodies** just cos' they're British/US/French etc.

 

(**Sometimes they take them on a nice drive in the Forest in an Army Truck and let them out for a break half way.....)

 

But the Goodies shoot the Baddies cos they've just been in battle with them and they've seen them blow their buddy to bits right in front of their eyes - and then when they shout "Ich gebe auf" ("I surrender") they're expected to overlook that little detail.  Not easy.

[polybear]

8 minutes ago, Ozexpatriate said:

That relationship was quite frosty. FDR was often the mediator between WSC and Joe at their periodic get-togethers, not to mention the "Favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons" remark.

 

There was a lot of tension in those meetings, with Joe being very unhappy with the UK PM.

 

 

The UK doing silly things in later years like floggin' the Ruskies RR Jet Engines didn't help either.

[Winslow Boy]

25 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

The UK doing silly things in later years like floggin' the Ruskies RR Jet Engines didn't help either.

And if we are being brutally truthful our other 'friends' weren't adverse to taking advantage of us either.

 

War is never ever just good fighting evil I'm afraid.

[iL Dottore]

28 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

But in all the movies the SS turn up at the Police Station/POW Camp etc. in big black cars and then go shootin' the Goodies** just cos' they're British/US/French etc.

 

(**Sometimes they take them on a nice drive in the Forest in an Army Truck and let them out for a break half way.....)

 

But the Goodies shoot the Baddies cos they've just been in battle with them and they've seen them blow their buddy to bits right in front of their eyes - and then when they shout "Ich gebe auf" ("I surrender") they're expected to overlook that little detail.  Not easy.

Utter b0ll0cks.

You've been watching too many third rate 1950's WWII films.

As Len Deighton observed through one his characters in an early novel (who glimpsed one of those fillms on a TV), if the Nazis really were such cartoonish villains, why did it take 6 long and bloody years to defeat them?

[Winslow Boy]

2 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

Utter b0ll0cks.

You've been watching too many third rate 1950's WWII films.

As Len Deighton observed through one his characters in an early novel (who glimpsed one of those fillms on a TV), if the Nazis really were such cartoonish villains, why did it take 6 long and bloody years to defeat them?

That's because they hadn't developed all the 'wunder' weapons.

 

Just think if we did it today it'd be all over in an hour and we'd be 'home for tea'.

[jjb1970]

Something I never realised for many years was the vulnerability of many German tanks to side hits. I always thought the reason for them being provided with side skirts was protection from hollow charge projectiles. While the skirts were useful for that they were introduced to defeat bullets from anti-tank rifles.

 

On hollow charge projectile protection I remember also swallowing the urban myth about the Soviets sticking bed springs to the T34 when the mesh panels were an engineered add on to improve protection,  similar to bar armour.

[DaveF]

Some glimpses of sun this morning.

 

In a few minutes I shall be taking 4 karge bags of books to a charity shop, I hope to find the barber is open as well.

 

Then it depends on whether the weather behaves and stays dry.

 

David

[The White Rabbit]

44 minutes ago, polybear said:

But in all the movies the SS turn up at the Police Station/POW Camp etc. in big black cars and then go shootin' the Goodies** just cos' they're British/US/French etc.

 

(**Sometimes they take them on a nice drive in the Forest in an Army Truck and let them out for a break half way.....)

 

But the Goodies shoot the Baddies cos they've just been in battle with them and they've seen them blow their buddy to bits right in front of their eyes - and then when they shout "Ich gebe auf" ("I surrender") they're expected to overlook that little detail.  Not easy.

 

13 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

Utter b0ll0cks. ....

 

In a slightly more nuanced argument (😉), I've seen far more movies which are [historically and factually] inaccurate than those which are not. There is the saying about journalists - why let the facts get in the way of a good story - which I'd suggest applies to movies as well. Movies have less time than books to get a message across and because of their nature, need to manipulate the audience's emotions faster (and more crudely?) so a 'juicy' atrocity/nastiness by a villain sets the tone. Even if it's unlikely or serves no good or logical purpose - even allowing for differing types of logic and viewpoints. 

 

Yes, taking prisoners after people in your company - or buddies in your fire team - have been hurt or killed does require discipline. And battles are noisy things, it would be easy to shoot first then say 'pardon? I'm a bit deaf at the moment' or 'I don't speak [enemy language]'. Difficult to prove. So long as you don't then say 'nicht verstanden' in front of an officer ... 

[The White Rabbit]

ION, the sun is breaking through here and a walk beckons. Probably to the butchers for some stilton. Not quite as crazy as it sounds! Hope to meet a few dogs on the way. I've been stuck inside a lot recently, sorting out the central heating issues, so it will be good to stretch the legs. More flowers are blooming in the garden. And judging by the amount of food the blackbird pair are collecting, I suspect at least some of their brood have hatched. 

[southern42]

23 hours ago, southern42 said:

' morning all from red dragon land.

A bit on the wet side. 7.7C

 

 

The only cinema based film I have seen in the last xxxxno. of years, was made of up minions of little yellow pill-shaped bodies.

 

A couple of jobbies to do, then I shall be sitting down to a TOTF 🎶 and trying out another "method" of being at one with the beat. Inspiration this time, is Handel's Largo (Xerxes) which was my no.1 piece in my piano playing days (a long time ago!). Slow but it does have some fast twiddly bits. So, I need to find a way of making the flute song FEEL slow even though most of it contains fast twiddly bits! 

 

Pitter patter on the window...raindrops falling...(but not on my head ;)

I will leave you with that.

Take care. Be good. Find an answer when you need one.

Polly

 

 

 

' morning all from red dragon land.

Those raindrops...they keep fallin'...

 

So I just did me some talking to the sun
And I said I didn't like the way he got things done
He's sleeping on the job
Those raindrops... they keep fallin'...

 

but, hopefully, not on today's TOTF 🎶. It went pretty well, yesterday. Firstly, turning down the volume a bit on the beat box certainly meant less distraction on the bits of the brain trying to keep the fingering going. Secondly, going into Handel's Largo mode, worked better than expected. The key was to give more emphasis to the first note of each beat (mostly 3 to 4 notes to the beat plus the twiddly extras). So far, so good. Now, to use it to enhance the song's words. <<Er...and...no...I don't sing them, I let the flute do that!>> One of the techniques I came to love when studying music was "word painting" and exploring its possibilities: a lovely example of Handel's use of it described here. (Video below to demonstrate one of the examples given.)

 

C&C groceries this afternoon so I had better get a move on and get things done before they arrive.

Take care. Be good. Use an umbrella... 🤣

Polly

 

 

Edited May 24 by southern42
add video

[PhilJ W]

2 hours ago, iL Dottore said:

 

OK, I’ll bite.

To the Bismarck, Yamato and the Flying Money Pit I would add:

• AIRCRAFT: Me109, Spitfire Mk I to V, Hurricane (early variants), P51, Lancaster Bomber, FW 190
• ARMOUR: Tiger, Panther, T34, Sherman, Pzkw Mk IV
• RAILWAYS: Castle Class locos, Mk 1 coaching stock, A4 (Mallard etc), Deltic, Class 08 Shunter, Class 125
• SHIPS: Titanic, HMS Victory, USS Enterprise, Cutty Sark

I’m sure that there are many others.

 

Over to you!

* BUSES Routemaster, B type and Opel Blitz.