Early Risers.

[Ozexpatriate]

2 hours ago, Hroth said:

I didn't want to complicate matters with the convicts being transferred as "indentured servants", in other words slaves.

Per above:

 

52,000 convicts

96,600 indentured servants

 

They were treated the same way once they arrived in the colonies - their service sold at auction at the dock.

 

In the colonial context, the "indentures" of that period were not necessarily like apprentices, "indentured" to a master tradesman to learn a trade. You have to wonder why someone would accept the sort of 18th century indentures that would have you essentially sold into slavery (with a time limit). One imagines many were on the run - patrimony, legal troubles, debt, etc - largely problems of the poor in 18th century Britain.

 

Once the term was served, the holder of the indenture did have to provide the servant with a new suit of clothes.

[The White Rabbit]

9 hours ago, PeterBB said:

... Who actually wants to pay more tax? - Nobody!  ....

 

Well ... actually, the ancient Greeks did*. They saw it as a moral duty to contribute to their society which had allowed them to prosper. By the richer citizens giving money to the state, they were helping others, giving them a chance to better themselves, enriching society as a whole.

 

But different times, different mores. And for all the obvious reasons! 

 

* I came across this when setting quiz questions, we had a tax section and this was one of the questions. Another might have interested @iL Dottore, 'twas which breed of dog was bred by [German] tax collectors for protection reasons. (Dobermans - not Rottweilers, the latter was bred by butchers and mainly for herding and cart pulling as well as protection). 

[Ozexpatriate]

4 hours ago, iL Dottore said:

I wonder how much antipathy to, or resistance to paying tax, is fuelled by the ... the government, both at the National and the local level, is not particularly good at efficiently, wisely and effectively spending the taxpayers money ...

 

I, for one would be more than happy to pay a little more tax IF (and it is a big if) i was confident that my tax money would fund something like better Street repair or new equipment for the local hospital.

We discussed ballot initiative referenda here a little while ago. It is quite common here for various bond measures / surcharge taxes (with strictly specified uses for the moneys so raised) to be voluntarily passed by voters.

[Barry O]

Belated Happy Birthday @iL Dottore

Bas

[The White Rabbit]

51 minutes ago, Ozexpatriate said:

Further back than that. The first "Global" war was the Seven Years War 1756 - 1763:

• North America - New France v. British American colonies (started by a Virginian, later famous as the first POTUS)
• Caribbean -  multiple islands swapped
• Africa - Senegal
• India - extensive land and sea engagements
• Philippines
• European Continent - extensive eastern Europe conflict (and the Spanish invasion of Portugal)
• etc

It is really the Seven Years' War that secured the Indian subcontinent as a future British 'possession'.

 

I like this paragraph - and the notion of the "Second Hundred Years' War".

 

Despite the name, the American Revolutionary War (1775 - 1783) was similarly global in scope.

 

I accept I'm on shaky ground here but I'd stick with 1793-1815 as 'my WW1'. I accept your point about the Seven Years War and yes, you could (quite reasonably) say other states or societies on other continents were dragged into the war but I think this was mainly because of the direct intervention of European powers with colonial ambitions rather than them positively deciding to enter the war by their own choice. I'd say that the Seven Years War was mainly European powers fighting amongst themselves - either 'at home' or 'away' on other continents. The 1793-1815 war saw wider conflict, in quantity, scope and consequences. The participants included the US and other non European powers. (For the purposes of this, I'm including Russia as a European power, which I appreciate is debatable). Within Europe, many national boundaries were redrawn and set the scene for the next 100 years or so. There were major social, economic, political and military changes as a result, more than there were from the Seven Years War - the inception of the US notwithstanding. And this applied round the world, especially with the disintegration of the Spanish Empire and the decline of the Ottoman Empire. 

 

It's a good subject for a historical society to debate, with some narrow distinctions and decent arguments both ways. The conflicts in India and 'Latin America' are particularly rich in opportunities to argue either way. Perhaps I should say I think the Seven Years War was a global conflict whereas the 1793-1815 war was a world war? 

[Coombe Barton]

... We now return to the person who could be termed the architect of a managed disaster. ...

https://johncolby.wordpress.com/2023/06/08/zoe-and-government-data-absent-nhs-data-used-and-more-boris/

[Erichill16]

Just taking Hovis out but thought I’d better wish @iL Dottore ‘Happy Birthday’ before it gets too late.

[Coombe Barton]

Happy Birthday to @iL Dottore

[Erichill16]

A GP i know very well was once a partner in a practice but gave it up due to the extra workload and become a salaried GP. After being taken advantage off she became a locum.
She works three days a week. Its enough, she could retire but doesn't want to. One of the biggest problems is getting people seen at a higher level  but seeing them deteriorate whilst waiting in the queue, both physically and mentally. Its not doing her health any good either. Its her birthday today and she looks older than me even though Im the oldest. I wish she would pack it in. 

Id think I’d better leave it there. 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Erichill16
Spelling, typed whilst walking

[PupCam]

Happy Birthday @iL Dottore!

[Sidecar Racer]

2 hours ago, Ozexpatriate said:

This is a topic of special interest to me, so if I may ...

 

 

 Thanks for all that detail , I have'nt studied history to that degree so was

just tossing in my  thoughts . My 1620 date was just the Mayflower landing year ,

possibly a large number of people would only associate this date as the start of

colonisation of the US unless they had a greater interest .

 

 My comments on the Aus convicts was my thoughts on how a group of people

in that situation would be more likely to have each others backs that the well off

and free would .

Edited June 8, 2023 by Sidecar Racer

[polybear]

Bear here.....

Nottalot of progress on the H/S/L today (due to the Co-op visit) though I did finally complete the last of the leccy work by fitting a new socket & back plate in the hallway, so that's a tick.

Then it was off to the Muddle Engineering Group to play games on Bear's favourite swarf maker (sorry for the cr@p photo):

 

 

 

When I'd finished playing I cleaned all the swarf* into a nice little pile ready for hoovering up using the Industrial Vacuum Cleaner - only to discover that some Tw@t had connected the Vacuum Hose to the "Blow" port......resulting in all the carefully tidied swarf being blown all over the f.shop.  Turdycurses.

 

(*A task drummed into Bear by my former Machine Shop Training Instructor, Mr. Stancombe** - who was an absolute Master at goin' Ape Sh1t if you dared leave a machine covered in cr@p after use).

 

(**A top guy - and much missed; he could name his own price nowadays cos' guys like him are rarer than Rockin' Horse Poo on Mars).

 

BG

Edited June 8, 2023 by polybear

[PhilJ W]

Evening all from Estuary-Land. Had a good evening at SEERS. There were fewer there than I expected and we were packing up by ten. I didn't eat anything before I went out but I'm just about to start on a couple of slices of bacon quiche.

[Erichill16]

20 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

Then it was off to the Muddle Engineering Group to play games on Bear's favourite swarf maker (sorry for the cr@p photo):

 

Thought group must have folded as you’ve no5 mentioned it recently.

Made anything exciting recently?

[Coombe Barton]

5 minutes ago, Erichill16 said:

Made anything exciting recently?

Swarf.

 

So he said :)

[Ozexpatriate]

52 minutes ago, Sidecar Racer said:

My 1620 date was just the Mayflower landing year, possibly a large number of people would only associate this date as the start of

colonisation of the US

Including many, if not most, Americans who are taught no American history prior to ~1775; except for "First Thanksgiving" (1621) stories in elementary school.

 

The first permanent, continuously inhabited, European settlement (non-Gaelic or Viking) in what is now the US* was at San Agustín / Saint Augustine, Florida in 1565. Even this was prefaced by multiple failed attempts.

 

* San Juan (Puerto Rico - a US possession) was founded by Spain in 1521.

 

[PhilJ W]

Goodnight all.

[monkeysarefun]

8 hours ago, iL Dottore said:

I wonder how much antipathy to, or resistance to paying tax, is fuelled by the fact that the government, both at the National and the local level, is not particularly good at efficiently, wisely and effectively spending the taxpayers money; squandering a lot on vanity projects, unnecessary internal bureaucracy and “flavour of the month“ activist bandwagons to jump on

Its probably fuelled more by resentment of the fact that rich pr1cks and multinationals manage to get away with paying little or none and governments don't seem to give a stuff other than make it ever easier and even less of a burden  for them.

[monkeysarefun]

7 hours ago, Erichill16 said:

Believe it or not it also my sisters birthday AND she is also a doctor! 
I thought I’d send her this then I thought ‘Robert, you really need to review your medication’  Im not sure whether i need to increase or decrease it!

The good news is that he has 7500 happy Birthday videos on his channel so every ER can get a personalised one from now on.

 

Robert gets 2!

 

https://www.youtube.com/@HappyBirthdaySinger/search?query=robert

[AndyID]

Well they were not wrong about the flood watch. The first cell just passed over us and dumped a ridiculous amount of rain.

 

Mind you it's preferable to the smoke they are getting on the right side of the country. Our daughter is lives over there and she posted a pic of the orange sky with the comment "It's dystopian out there!"

 

My "dad" reply was "Looks a bit smoky too." 😄

[monkeysarefun]

5 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

My dad fought alongside Indian troops at Imphal. The ones that were the best were the Ghurkhas though they were Nepalese rather than Indian.

 

 

The NZ  28th Maori Battalion are remembered here by those who served alongside them as the most formidable troops they'd ever encountered.

 

 'The training of the Māori child from his infancy to manhood was aimed at the perfection of the warrior-class, while to die in the pursuit of the War God Tumatauenga was a sacred duty and a manly death.'

 

Unfortunately the best wrap-up is in the  Daily Mail who describe Rommel as a "legendary tank commander". 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11743497/The-incredible-story-New-Zealands-World-War-2-M-ori-battalion.html

Edited June 8, 2023 by monkeysarefun

[AndyID]

1 hour ago, Coombe Barton said:

Swarf.

 

So he said :)

 

More commonly referred to as "chips" in these parts and potentially quite valuable for some metals. Of course these should not be confused with chips.

[Ozexpatriate]

32 minutes ago, AndyID said:

Mind you it's preferable to the smoke they are getting on the right side of the country.

I wouldn't wish that smoke on anyone. It is interesting however, when it happens in New York City, it is the lead national story on the nightly network news (broadcast from New York).

 

When the same conditions happen in a west coast city (even a big one like San Francisco) it isn't covered until 15 minutes in.

[monkeysarefun]

6 hours ago, Ozexpatriate said:

In Australia it served colonizing. While many transportees worked on subsistence farming for the colony they also worked on public works. In the North American colonies they served private individuals. 

 

 

Another aspect of convict life here was that unless convicted of a subsequent crime while here,  convicts were employed during "business hours" to work on government projects or assigned to free settlers, but "after hours" were free to tend their own plots or to sell their  labour to settlers. 

 

A "Ticket Of Leave" was awarded for good behaviour or after serving a certain proportion of their sentence, or immediately on arrival if they had skills especially in demand (or were "Gentlemen").  This ticket granted them the right to marry, to bring out relatives from Britain, acquire land, to freely  travel within a proscribed area  - but not to carry firearms or board a ship.  It was intended to reduce the burden on government food stores by allowing convicts to grow their own food.

 

Many convicts went on to amass large wealth and became part of the colonial establishment, one reason why the" Class System" initially transported from the UK became pretty irrelevant here - the rich gent passing by in his carriage could quite likely have been a  Thames bargeman  or whatever before transportation for some crime, who had made his fortune here. 

 

The shortage  of labour, especially once gold was discovered in Victoria and western NSW which  lured many to the goldfields  meant labourers and skilled workers could demand large salaries, far beyond what they had  earned in the UK.  ( This situation has been replicated more recently, especially in the mining boom of a couple of years ago when it was reported that McDonalds for instance were paying their store  managers in one  Western Australian mining town over $180,000  because if they paid less they kept losing  them to the mines!)

Edited June 9, 2023 by monkeysarefun

[monkeysarefun]

3 hours ago, polybear said:

 

 When I'd finished playing I cleaned all the swarf* into a nice little pile ready for hoovering up using the Industrial Vacuum Cleaner - only to discover that some Tw@t had connected the Vacuum Hose to the "Blow" port......resulting in all the carefully tidied swarf being blown all over the f.shop.  Turdycurses.

 

 

 

Call me a Tw@t and I'll do it again!