Early Risers.

[Thorness]

55 minutes ago, monkeysarefun said:

 

The state of Victoria recently banned any public display of the swastika too, fair enough if displayed by right wing thugs marching down Collins St, less so if it means model Messerschmitts cant be shown in hobby shop windows. 

 

Meanwhile on afternoon TV reruns of Hogans Heroes splash it around along with Gestapo references all played for laughs, as does "Allo Allo!" over on another channel.  Neither of those series would probably get the green light to get made today, it seems that the further we move on in time, that particular   symbols imagery focusses more and more on the atrocities bit and less on its overall historical context, maybe as WW2 in total fades in popular culture. 

 

I recall reading a while back that a group in the US wanted Chevrolet to remove some of their model nomenclature based purely on the two letters which in the cars context had a completely different meaning from anything to do with Nazis but apparently it still had to go in their eyes. . The same nomenclature was used here by GMH and if anyone expects me to take to the ute with a screwdriver they'll have to prise it out of my cold dead hands or whatever.

 

 

 

These are awarded to returning guests at Sandals:

 

A bit closer than the Ss on your ute but I'm not aware of anyone refusing them!

 

Cheers

Don

[pH]

I had a rather disturbing experience this morning. On the way to our bank (see previous post), I was in a short lineup to turn left (equivalent to right in the UK) into the car park for the plaza where the bank is. The car immediately in front was a Tesla with only a driver in it, and there were two cars in front of that. 
 

The left turn light goes green, those two cars move off and turn and the Tesla doesn’t move. The light goes red, but the Tesla still doesn’t move forward to the stop line. I sound the horn, but it still doesn’t move, so I pull out and round it and up to the stop line.  The driver doesn’t move as we pass. This does not look good.

 

On the next change of light, I turn into the car park, my wife goes to the bank and I, with some trepidation, go back to the Tesla which still hasn’t moved. The driver is sitting with his eyes closed, I knock the window, he opens his eyes, gives me two thumbs up and, since the light is green again, turns into the car park and parks beside our car. I’m fairly relieved - he’s apparently just nodded off.

 

He’s getting out of the car as I approach and ask if he’s OK. He says yes - and then comes the disturbing bit. He says that since a couple of years ago, his ‘brain sometimes stops for a bit’ !!!!! Then WTF are you driving a car??? Sounds perhaps like petit mal.

 

 

[PupCam]

23 minutes ago, pH said:

Our friendly neighbourhood bank manager

 

What on earth is one of those!   I'll have to Google it.

 

Night Awl!

[pH]

6 minutes ago, PupCam said:

 

What on earth is one of those!  

Yes, sorry, I did put that in on purpose, partly to see if it got a reaction. He is genuinely a nice guy, and we’ve dealt with him now for literally decades. 

[BSW01]

Good evening everyone 

 

Well we spent a lot longer in the Trafford Centre than I usually spend when I go on my own, but then we did stop off part way through and have a drink. I had tea and a slice, Sheila just had her usual decaf coffee. The end result was we came home in time for a late dinner, but with the last few items for Ian’s birthday present, so Sheila was very pleased about that. 

 

The afternoon was spent doing bu99er all, unless you count printing off a couple of recipes that is. 

 

We've had confirmation that new dishwasher will arrive tomorrow afternoon, between 2:20 and 4:20, which I’m rather pleased about as it means I don’t have to be up with the pharting sparrows!

Edited October 14, 2022 by BSW01

[BSW01]

Goodnight all 

[polybear]

4 hours ago, New Haven Neil said:

Pah.

 

Spoked too soon I did, re Spikevax Bivalent. 

 

I was just a bit achey this morning, went out to the Old Farts Bike Club breakfast at 10 - when leaving the cafe at 12 I was really quite stiff and sore, which over the next couple of hours (riding on a 125 year old electric train didn't help) developed in full blown killer man-flu aches, headache and nausea (no snot though).  Had a really rough afternoon, just clearing a bit now at 1940hrs, assisted by paracetamol. Hopefully this means my immune system was hard at work.

 

Pah again if it ruins the weekend!

 

Better than the alternative though for sure.

 

Bear - book, play, film, T-shirt......though I swapped the nauseu bit for dizziness.

 

2 hours ago, monkeysarefun said:

Anyway, the whole argument about which visitor to Australia is more whatever is completely moot if you live here -  many of the local examples make those expensive imports pale into insignificance!

 

Are photos available?  Asking for a friend.....

[PhilJ W]

Goodnight all.

[Ozexpatriate]

2 hours ago, monkeysarefun said:

I recall reading a while back that a group in the US wanted Chevrolet to remove some of their model nomenclature based purely on the two letters which in the cars context had a completely different meaning from anything to do with Nazis but apparently it still had to go in their eyes.

"Super Sport" is quite different from the Waffen-Schutzstaffel. One does not imply the other.

 

There is / was a mountain in Oregon named Mount Swastika, named after a cattle ranch in 1903 - long before the NSDAP coopted the mirrored symbol. Apparently the swastika was used there as a cattle brand. It is in the process of being renamed after a 19th century chief of the Yoncalla Kalapuya tribe, which is probably better in the long run.

 

Currently there is a big push to rename place names containing the common (five-letter) pejorative term for a native American woman. There are a *lot* of them. This word is considered particularly offensive (and usually was*) despite generations hearing it innocently in "Western" movies.

 

* Originally Algonquin for woman, but was used pejoratively by white settlers since the 17th century.

 

The Palisades-Tahoe ski resort in California renamed themselves last year from one of these references.

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Ozexpatriate

[Ozexpatriate]

1 hour ago, pH said:

The left turn light goes green, those two cars move off and turn and the Tesla doesn’t move. The light goes red, but the Tesla still doesn’t move forward to the stop line.

Presumably he was not using the less-than-perfect, but functional most-of-the-time, 'auto-pilot' feature.

 

It is one of the interesting attributes of autonomous vehicles, that they are/will be able to avoid the sort of accidents that do happen when drivers have some sort of seizure (cardiac, diabetic-coma, etc) which would result in loss of control of the vehicle. A surprising number of vehicle collisions reported on the news - particularly when the vehicle runs into a structure (like a house) are described as a the result of the driver having a "medical emergency".

[pH]

22 minutes ago, Ozexpatriate said:

It is one of the interesting attributes of autonomous vehicles, that they are/will be able to avoid the sort of accidents that do happen when drivers have some sort of seizure (cardiac, diabetic-coma, etc) which would result in loss of control of the vehicle. A surprising number of vehicle collisions reported on the news - particularly when the vehicle runs into a structure (like a house) are described as a the result of the driver having a "medical emergency".

 

Yes, but what would be the resolution of a situation like that? If the driver has input his destination, does the vehicle keep going till it gets there? Or is there the equivalent of a "dead man's pedal" which will stop the car if there is no activity from the driver? 

[monkeysarefun]

1 hour ago, Ozexpatriate said:

Super Sport" is quite different from the Waffen-Schutzstaffel. One does not imply the other.

I know that and you know that but I don't think these guys do! 

 

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/chevrolet-ss-banned-in-israel-because-the-ss-reminds-them-of-the-nazis/

 

 

(The car in question was actually an Australian designed and manufactured VF Commodore exported and  rebadged as a Chevy SS for the US and international  market, until  the federal government killed our auto industry...)

Edited October 15, 2022 by monkeysarefun

[J. S. Bach]

Night Owl from the Piedmont.

[iL Dottore]

15 hours ago, iL Dottore said:

I think that @polybear definitely needs to take a very cold shower and go lie down in a dark room.

 

12 hours ago, polybear said:

With JA? 🤣

Jeremiah Arbuthnot (“JA”) is a terribly nice chap and all that, but he’s finding all this Special Beary Attention, well……. a bit embarrassing…

Edited October 15, 2022 by iL Dottore

[jjb1970]

3 hours ago, Ozexpatriate said:

"Super Sport" is quite different from the Waffen-Schutzstaffel. One does not imply the other.

 

There is / was a mountain in Oregon named Mount Swastika, named after a cattle ranch in 1903 - long before the NSDAP coopted the mirrored symbol. Apparently the swastika was used there as a cattle brand. It is in the process of being renamed after a 19th century chief of the Yoncalla Kalapuya tribe, which is probably better in the long run.

 

Currently there is a big push to rename place names containing the common (five-letter) pejorative term for a native American woman. There are a *lot* of them. This word is considered particularly offensive (and usually was*) despite generations hearing it innocently in "Western" movies.

 

* Originally Algonquin for woman, but was used pejoratively by white settlers since the 17th century.

 

The Palisades-Tahoe ski resort in California renamed themselves last year from one of these references.

 

 

I think casual racism can be the most offensive sort for its victims. There are overt racists and prejudiced bigots in all groups, but they're generally dismissed as an odious fringe. For example, my wife doesn't judge British people from the fringe of people who hate Chinese people (though she came close during the pandemic when things got very strange for those who looked East/SE Asian......) as she recognizes they are not representative of British people. However, when words are used which are highly offensive to others without realizing it, not only is it offensive but it kind of indicates it isn't even worth the effort of understanding why it might be offensive. I myself have used many, many deeply offensive words without realizing it and look back on many attitudes I have held with shame.

It was brought to mind this week, I have a lot of friends who work in government agencies around Asia and they've all been incensed by the remarks of the chief diplomat of a large group of developed countries describing the world outside that garden as a jungle and making further comments which have (in my view rightly) been interpreted as indicated a deep seated casual racism and arrogance. What has really incensed aside from the words themselves is that they come from the blocs chief diplomat.

For info, these are a few pictures I took of the the cruel and lawless, desolate jungle of Singapore, it's a poverty stricken, barren place....apparently.

 

[iL Dottore]

8 hours ago, PupCam said:

….As has been said before, hiding nasty stuff from the past and pretending it never happened is the worse possible thing to do.   In this sort of case displaying said symbol is not condoning what went on it is providing the specific context for an artefact - in this case a scale model.   I might just throw in a couple for myself  😡😡

Without getting “political”, it’s also frequently a very selective pretending it never happened. If Group A and Group B both did nasty thing C, far too often nowadays, Group A’s involvement in nasty thing C is swept under the rug, whilst Group B is excoriated for having done nasty thing C (or vice versa).

 

History, I think, should always be presented in its full and unvarnished form. Without which we are condemned to repeat the past in one way or another. A lot of history should be unpleasant or uncomfortable reading – humanity is not a very nice species and humanity has done some awful things in the name of dogma, religion and ideology.

 

Just as bad as pretending certain bits of history didn’t happen, is the bowdlerisation or prettification of selected historical events. By simplifying and sanitising past events not only are you losing any lessons that may be contained therein, but you are also doing a disservice to the memory of those who actually went through those events.

[jjb1970]

I think it was AJP Taylor who said that people apply a generosity of interpretation to the acts and policies of their own countries which is not extended to other countries. He was correct for most people, though there is also a fringe of contrarians who invert that principle. I think the way history is considered has always been influenced by contemporary politics and it would be difficult for it to be otherwise, but I do find modern attitudes to divide the world into a binary world of absolutes and which has bled into how history is presented is not only unhelpful but rather dangerous. No country has a blemish free history, just as none are without achievement, pretending that some countries are good and others bad is just wrong. An extreme example is Germany in the period 1933 - 45, perhaps the most heinous regime in history yet there are plenty of examples of humane acts by German people of that period and plenty of examples of allied acts which would have been war crimes if committed by Germany.

[iL Dottore]

2 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

…..However, when words are used which are highly offensive to others without realizing it, not only is it offensive but it kind of indicates it isn't even worth the effort of understanding why it might be offensive.

This is certainly a difficult issue and I partly agree with you. The reason I say “partly” is because I think there is a difference between using lazy stereotypes and descriptive words - which truly can be offensive and down to laziness (or worse - indifference) and using words or phrases that have a long pedigree that has nothing to do with any particular group of people.

 

A good example of the lazy stereotype (and I use my own Italian heritage as an example) is that of referring to Italian soldiers as “cowardly” (and the associated jokes about tanks with 5 reverse gears etc.). I, personally, am not offended by it - but the ignorance reflected by such stereotypes does really p1ss me off! For a military that was just barely equipped with pre-WWI and other obsolete equipment, was poorly trained and officered (for the most part) had inadequate supplies and not enough uniforms and without any sort societal or industrial support (Italy was still a predominantly agrarian society and economy) the fact that Mussolini managed to field any sort of fighting force whatsoever is pretty amazng. But when well equipped and well lead, they were as effective as many other WWII forces - and sometimes more so (at Stalingrad the Italian Alpini were the only axis troops to successfully break out of the encirclement). And ask any British soldier who faced the Bersaglieri or the Folgore in the African theatres of war if Italian troops were cowards…

 

The second point I make in my first paragraph, is - I think - is problematic simply because there are people who are determined to take offence at the drop of a hat and at the most innocuous wording. Take for example, “blackballed”: this has nothing to do with race but merely reflects the long established custom of using black or white balls dropped into a collecting box to express approval/Aye (white) or disapproval/Nay (black). And the whole black/white dichotomy goes back into the mists of time - across the world - reflecting mankind’s relationship with night (black) and day (white). 
 

Edited October 15, 2022 by iL Dottore
Typo, wording

[jjb1970]

10 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

This certainly a difficult issue and I partly agree with you. The reason I say “partly” is because I think there is a difference between using lazy stereotypes and descriptive words - which truly can be offensive and down to laziness (or worse - indifference) and using words or phrases that have a long pedigree that has nothing to do with any particular group of people.

 

A good example of the lazy stereotype (and I use my own Italian heritage as an example) is that of referring to Italian soldiers as “cowardly” (and the associated jokes about tanks with 5 reverse gears etc.). I, personally, am not offended by it - but the ignorance reflected by such stereotypes does really p1ss me off! For a military that was just barely equipped with pre-WWI and other obsolete equipment, was poorly trained and officered (for the most part) had inadequate supplies and not enough uniforms and without any sort societal or industrial support (Italy was still a predominantly agrarian society and economy) the fact that Mussolini managed to field any sort of fighting force whatsoever is pretty amazng. But when well equipped and well lead, they were as effective as many other WWII forces - and sometimes more so (at Stalingrad the Italian Alpini were the only axis troops to successfully break out of the encirclement). And ask any British soldier who faced the Bersaglieri or the Folgore in the African theatres of war if Italian troops were cowards…

 

The second point I make in my first paragraph, is - I think - is problematic simply because there are people who are determined to take offence at the drop of a hat and at the most innocuous wording. Take for example, “blackballed”: this has nothing to do with race but merely reflects the long established custom of using black or white balls dropped into a collecting box to express approval/Aye (white) or disapproval/Nay (black). And the whole black/white dichotomy goes back into the mists of time - across the world - reflecting mankind’s relationship with night (black) and day (white). 

 

I agree, and it is indeed a difficult issue. I think it is another example of the way society has devolved into a series of binary and absolute positions and lost all sense of nuance and context. Some offensive words are offensive because of misuse, being appropriated for other purposes and their etymology being ignored which leads to them being condemned when properly used. An example is an old English word for stinginess which is similar to a highly offensive word begining with 'n'. Is the former word racist because of association, or are people jumping to conclusions because they don't understand it? Modern society tends to go with the first point of view but I would argue that the second is more accurate. Is it right or wrong to use the word? I guess that's a personal value judgement. My own position would be to avoid using it simply because today it is likely to cause offence, but I would equally object to anyone jumping to conclusions that someone using it is racist. 

In my experience if people explain why something is offensive most people react positively and try to adjust their language and behaviour. That may take time but people tend to be creatures of habit. If people are just dismissed as racists then it tends to lead to a confrontational attitude which helps nobody. There is another truth, which may be even more difficult, which is that freedom of speech and expression includes freedom to be offensive or it is not freedom. That does not mean that it is good or right to be offensive, but it does raise the question of where a legitimate right to express objectionable opinions ends and where hate speech begins. Again, it defies a simplistic absolute and binary approach. At one time judges were very good at applying their judgement and making the distinction, but as governments increasingly codify such things I think we are seeing increasing tension between freedom of expression and laws designed to protect people. And that one if a real hand grenade.

I also think it's very easy to leap to offence on behalf of others, which itself can become highly patronizing and almost a form of racism as it might infer the group in question lacks agency or is incapable of voicing their own view. I am guilty of this and sometimes my wife tells me off for being too quick to take offence on her behalf. She can also be quite scathing about people taking things out of the context of their time. Judging people of the past according to the moral norms of today is fraught with issues. There are some behaviours which were bad at the time and can fairly be judged as such, there were other behaviours which were normal and considered respectable. That doesn't make them right, nor excuse them fully, but we are all creatures of our time. Anyone who thinks they don't hold views and positions which are highly likely to be condemned in the future is almost certainly wrong.

[iL Dottore]

@jjb1970  I think that for the health of society, freedom of speech must include the offensive. Let‘s not forget, as you have inferred, things change and “offensive” becomes the normal or vice versa (women having the vote? what an offensive idea - it goes against all common decency, don’t you know…. etc., etc., etc.)

 

To be blunt as long as it doesn’t call for violence (including death threats), speech of all kinds must be protected. Saying “venusians are three-tentacled greeny pond scum who fnurtle their own pfarrs and wouldn’t give you a garrt if there wasn’t anything in it for them” may be offensive - but it isn’t hate speech; Saying “we need to protect humans by killing off all the tentacled greeny pond scum” is

[jamie92208]

7 hours ago, PupCam said:

 

What on earth is one of those!   I'll have to Google it.

 

Night Awl!

You used to be able to find your bank manager in your wardrobe according to one TV advert.

 

Jamie

[jjb1970]

Does anyone remember the old Sellafield visitor centre adverts, 'no, I'm not an actress, this is me job'.

[jamie92208]

Good moaning from a dark and damp Charente.  The hens will need letting out soon.  It was damp and we had Welsh sunshine most of yesterday.  However,  I did spend a few hours watching trains though there weren't too many of them.  

 

Today I have the lovely job of trying to take the front axle off my lawn tractor so that it can be repaired.  That will be a voyage of discovery.

 

Regards to all.

 

As to the previous discussion, ponder the term blackmail.  Nothing at all to do with skin  colour.  It originated as a term to describe cattle thieves from the northern part of the UK who didn't keep their chain mail clean when demanding money from Englush farmers for not stealing their cattle.

 

Jamie

Edited October 15, 2022 by jamie92208

[Barry O]

Ey up!

 

Very busy day yesterday. Paid my Tyne Tunnel fare on line (£1.99each way).

 

A couple of very good meetings as well and I met up with a very long tetm acquaintance who has been in a covid bubble until last week (she went for her booster jab and decided to visit a supermarket. )

 

Stay safe!

Baz

[TheQ]

Mooring Awl,

5 hours plus one hours sleep..

Ben the I want out Collie shortened part 2, very strange low grey clouds out there, low, but tinted from a slight orange in the east to white in the west. Very heavy dew.

 

I would be niggardly in not agreeing with Il Dottore's remarks on WW2 troops, I've just finished a book on the north Africa desert war, you had to be very brave in going into battle driving tanks that had such thin armour knowing almost everything the allied forces had, above a rifle could get through it.

 

It should also be remembered many of the Italian troops, wanted to have nothing to do with Mussolini's adventures, and didn't support the fascists aims...

 

Very shortly I shall go outside, hook up the trailer and head off to play musical boats...

 

Time to finish this muggacoffee...