station cat Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 (edited) Thanks for supportive votes , I probably should have added that this was 18 months ago , having had a stent fitted he returned to as good a health as we over 60's are likely to get . The guy in the bed next to station brother was clinically dead at 4am on Friday morning. They got him back, stented him up and he was wandering around very cheerfully yesterday. I think he's going home today too. Commiserations to Aditi, don't let them win. Edited June 16, 2014 by station cat 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium skipepsi Posted June 16, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 16, 2014 Aditi had her meeting. The HR person wasn't prepared to remove her from the redundancy list. She just wanted her to sign a voluntary redundancy agreement for £21000 and go. HR say they can't accept that her (declared ) conditions of asthma and diabetes mean that she is slower to recover from infections and that she must provide evidence. She has made a GP appointment for Friday and is now contacting her union for legal advice. Interestingly the big union on site is also making the same case as Aditi that a simple totting up of absences over an 18 month period is insufficient grounds for redundancy. Aditi isn't in that union but she knows the rep well and will let him know what has happened in case it helps his members too. Aditi did tell the HR person that there had never been any complaint about her work and no adverse reaction from any manager about any time she lost due to illness. The HR reply "they have to treat everyone equally" and cannot take into account how important or necessary her role is. Aditi said that on one hand she feels like taking the money, telling them "to get stuffed"(strong language from her!) and retire but she won't as that is what they want really. Give me two years wages and I will consider it, anything less and its the tribunal...... Funny how HR never think they are talking with humanswho have a life outside work. Hope her union is good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Thanks for the photos, Ian. Matt’s old before his time and even more amazing he is American.....https://www.facebook.com/mattmcmurryracing Yes I watched the Ferrari circulating but due to awful short term memory loss I can’t for the life of me remember who was driving it! I’ll probably remember at 2:00am.... I used to like standing on the outside of of Tertre Rouge just before the apex (at night photos of the brake discs aglow with yellow heat were amazing). I understand no one can stand there now? The tat of the original fair was worth at least one visit (over the years) - blasting away with a sawn-off shotgun, anyone? Or a .22short Thompson machine gun? I think my favourite stand was the made-to-order crepes......or the giveaway Yoplait yogurt drinks that were one degree above freezing point... Mike, so glad that your son appears on the mend. Something he must watch in the future. I used to get a severe headache at a critical point when having sex! The doctors determined that the veins around my brain were not expanding enough to cope with the higher blood pressure.....mild beta blockers solved that, thank, God. Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony_S Posted June 16, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 16, 2014 I smell constructive dismissal - that is absolutely atrocious Tony and noway whatsoever to treat somebody in a senior position who has to put up with what Aditi has to. If they want to make her redundant they should go about it in the proper manner and cut out her job. Incidentally how many people are they trying to get rid of? About eighty redundancies allegedly across the whole college, many of which are hoped to be "voluntary". I am not a lawyer or HR person but I've looked up the relevant section on the Governments "Dismissal, Your rights, illness" webpage and in quite straightforward language I can't see how they can make a redundancy on those grounds stick. Her work has never been affected by any of her chronic health complaints. She declared all health conditions on commencement of employment, she has all the checkups associated with diabetes.epilepsy and asthma. She follows her GPs advice etc. She said that she has to sign the redundancy agreement and leave within 5 days or the "generous" offer will be withdrawn and less generous terms and serving out of notice will be required. Our GP is on leave for another fortnight and the first non-urgent appointment she can get is on Friday. The colleges Occupational Health adviser (a nurse) isn't apparently qualified to make the decisions about whether or not conditions like diabetes or asthma increased the time it took Aditi to get over acute tonsillitis in the New Year. It took her 10 days and it is this 10 days and a couple of days in 2013 that they claim is persistant short term absence affecting her ability to work. I told Aditi you had replied and she was really appreciative and grateful especially knowing that you have returned early due to your son's health situation Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Well! My advise at this stage is to find a lawyer skilled in “Employment” (see The Law Society) to issue a cease and desist order for a period of say one month to allow consultations to take place by Aditi with her Doctor and other interested parties - the threats to "sign immediately or else" must be stopped. Just my opinion, of course, Tony.... Best, Pete. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 About eighty redundancies allegedly across the whole college, many of which are hoped to be "voluntary". I am not a lawyer or HR person but I've looked up the relevant section on the Governments "Dismissal, Your rights, illness" webpage and in quite straightforward language I can't see how they can make a redundancy on those grounds stick. Her work has never been affected by any of her chronic health complaints. She declared all health conditions on commencement of employment, she has all the checkups associated with diabetes.epilepsy and asthma. She follows her GPs advice etc. She said that she has to sign the redundancy agreement and leave within 5 days or the "generous" offer will be withdrawn and less generous terms and serving out of notice will be required. Our GP is on leave for another fortnight and the first non-urgent appointment she can get is on Friday. The colleges Occupational Health adviser (a nurse) isn't apparently qualified to make the decisions about whether or not conditions like diabetes or asthma increased the time it took Aditi to get over acute tonsillitis in the New Year. It took her 10 days and it is this 10 days and a couple of days in 2013 that they claim is persistant short term absence affecting her ability to work. I told Aditi you had replied and she was really appreciative and grateful especially knowing that you have returned early due to your son's health situation Tony Tony, I'm no expert either. [i only ever had to prepare the case for dismissing one member of staff on the grounds of gross misconduct (theft); very much the burden of proof was on the employer to avoid comeback.] However, it does seem to me that "persistent short-term absence" would result in written warnings after each occurrence. This would easily have been countered by a GPs letter explaining the absence. If there were no valid grounds for the absence then it seems to me that the person would be dismissed, not made redundant. I'm not a big fan of waving the rather over-used "discrimination" card but it really does seem to my lay eyes as applying here. The 5-day "take it or lose it" offer is unreasonable behaviour and smacks of bullying. It would seem a case of the HR trying to panic people into accepting the offer to meet their own target. Yes, these offers can be reduced but in my own experience this is in later redundancy rounds when cash flow issues meant the company could no-longer afford generous payouts and moved towards what it could get away with. Lastly redundancy means that the post and its requirement to exist has disappeared. Hence the college would not be entitled to move someone over to cover Aditi's role. On the upside you can get a lot of railway related stuff for £21k! (hey, just saying, whilst grabbing my coat.) As ever tell Aditi that she has a lot of supporters on ER! I'm sure she knows that by now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium NGT6 1315 Posted June 16, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 16, 2014 Evening all. Bring on Friday! Tony, please do tell Aditi that I'm keeping my fingers crossed and that I hope she'll be giving those so-called HR staff a run for their money. That really is no way of treating anyone... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock67B Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Tony, What a bunch of 'Aerosols' you are dealing with. Good legal advice is the only way and I can't see how Aditi could lose - I admire her attitude, rolling over would be playing in to their hands! Stuff them! Kind regards, Jock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 To be honest, it smacks of passive aggressive behaviour. "Accept our generous offer now, or get nothing later" Thereby hoping the "problem" will make a hasty decision and "go away". In my, admittedly limited, knowledge of employment law, they are on shaky ground legally and morally reprehensible. In your position, Tony, I would consider seeking legal advice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony_S Posted June 16, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 16, 2014 Aditi is so grateful for all the support. We have just been through all the documentation and I found the sentence mentioning that she has two days from today to object to the procedure executed today. She is upstairs at this moment generating an email to be backed up by a signed letter to be delivered tomorrow, (if it were delivered today, I suspect Aditi may have nailed it to her manager's door) Not only have we had all the support from ERs, her brother in law has despatched his "medico-legal" opinion from Lagomera where he is on holiday. Ian isn't a lawyer, he is a GP, but he does attend a lot of tribunals where his patients have been threatened with health related redundancy so he is somewhat experienced. He even quoted EU employment law which was quite impressive! The general feeling is that they are trying to bully people into going (I don't know now but in the past terms have allegedly included confidentiality "aka gagging" clauses.) on the grounds that future terms will be less generous. This is very stressful for Aditi and I know it doesn't help her blood sugar levels but the fact that she is angry rather than than depressed is a good sign. She has argued every point made so far, and has made it quite clear that she will not "accept" redundancy she will go to a tribunal and intends to win! Tony 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium NGT6 1315 Posted June 16, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 16, 2014 Meet Runa: SiL's dog. 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium petethemole Posted June 16, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 16, 2014 Legal advice and support should be available through Aditi's Union, whichever it is. The public service sector unions are usually pretty good with this, I know mine was, for several colleagues. Also, if the threatened/proposed redundancies are across the board in the college, the unions should already be getting together and negotiating as the 'Staff Side'. IMHO if HR are quoting deadines the union legal side need to be in action ASAP. A good rep/steward and a legal advisor together should be present at any future meeting. Hope all goes well. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted June 16, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 16, 2014 Its a few years since I was a trade union rep. IIRC there is or was a minimum notice period for this sort of dismissal, I cannot recall exactly how long but it is a lot more than 5 days (30 days seems to ring a bell somewhere). Where I worked such a dismissal would not take place without first a medical examination by the councils own medical officer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted June 16, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 16, 2014 Quite agree with Phil and other comments. A dismissal on the grounds of ill health would require evidenced stages having been followed including verbal and written warnings, consultation with a doctor nominated by the employer and an agreed "action plan" to improve attendance. I have been on both sdes of it, so I know the procedures quite well in a local authority setting. Unless you are very confident of the ability of your union rep, get an employment lawyer All the best Tony and Aditi. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Popular Post colin penfold Posted June 16, 2014 RMweb Gold Popular Post Share Posted June 16, 2014 OK then, happier stuff. Having had Sunday off I resumed my walk from Kings Lynn to Norwich today. The Nar Valley Way finished at Beetley so I picked up the Wensum Way today from there to Lenwade. Final leg tomorrow, the Marriotts Way from Lenwade into Norwich. The Wensum way crosses the Mid Norfolk Railway near the village of Hoe, the track is all present but as yet services do not run on this section I timed it perfectly arriving at Swanton Morley just in time for lunch. Lacons Legacy is a very nice pint brewed in Great Yarmouth Swanton Morley's 14th Century Church of All Saints St Marys Bylaugh Bylaugh Hall and Orangery Attractive mill house at Lyng 21 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coombe Barton Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 80 redundancies? Where's the consultation period? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Shedman5 Posted June 16, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 16, 2014 Just read alll this, bloody ridiculous, yep get a good solicitor on the case , absence as a criteria alone for redundancy is unbelievable. I assume everyone who has had time off for sickness is being interviewed? Sad to say but I know a lot of hr and senior management rely on baffles brains, offer a enhanced package if you sign the forms quickly is a standard exercise. Rely on the individual not knowing their rights,and your home and dry, eu law hmm how do you know that? They will only tell you as little as they can get away with, I've seen it many times, big shock when i moved up into senior managment and viewed how it really works, helped me sort my early retirement out though. Stick to your guns! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted June 16, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 16, 2014 Most unions employ a firm of specialist solicitors for such cases. The name of the firm is Thompson & Thompson but quite often known as and referred to simply as Thompson's Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted June 16, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 16, 2014 The HR person, who is presumably paid by results, clearly w*nks for Britain, and will get his - er - cumuppence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 16, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 16, 2014 (edited) Exactly so John - more than 20 redundancies and they are legally required to enter into formal consultation first. If they don't they are contravening the Industrial Relations Acts and if they set a time limit for replying to 'offers' I believe that should be agreed during the consultation process. In the meanwhile - after a nice g&t and a couple of glasses of red with a 4 course dinner - this was the sunset last Thursday, 12 June 'somewhere off the east coast' (and from the next morning the only coast, of England, which we saw was the south coast). Edited June 16, 2014 by The Stationmaster 14 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted June 16, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 16, 2014 Sorry you're back so soon Mike, but glad things are looking better. I don't have kids, but fully understand that a mere holiday is trivial in comparison And Dr SC has proved to be a very practical daughter - be proud! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony_S Posted June 16, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 16, 2014 Most unions employ a firm of specialist solicitors for such cases. The name of the firm is Thompson & Thompson but quite often known as and referred to simply as Thompson's Matthew mentioned Thompson's a few years ago. At the time he was considering law as a career and hoped he could gravitate towards that sort of solicitor. However he rejected law as a career. Though I suspect he'll be reasonably knowledgeable about employment law this time next year. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony_S Posted June 16, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 16, 2014 (edited) And Dr SC has proved to be a very practical daughter - be proud! I think we need to know if the good Doctor's duty manager has managed to remove the phone from wherever it hit him .... Edited June 16, 2014 by Tony_S Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
station cat Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 (edited) Matthew mentioned Thompson's a few years ago. At the time he was considering law as a career and hoped he could gravitate towards that sort of solicitor. However he rejected law as a career. Though I suspect he'll be reasonably knowledgeable about employment law this time next year. At this rate most of RM Web are going to be experts on employment law this time next year I think we need to know if the good Doctor's duty manager has managed to remove the phone from wherever it him .... My aim ain't that good. Small targets and all that. EDIT: posts combined themselves. Awesome sauce Edited June 16, 2014 by station cat 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony_S Posted June 16, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 16, 2014 (edited) Consultation? An email was sent out to all staff about 14 days ago. Aditi was told she had been identified by the criteria about a week ago and she was specifically told to attend a meeting to discuss her health related absence last Wednesday, postponed until today. This was where she was presented with the "offer" and all the documentation pertaining to her absences. This document claims this meeting is part of the consultation process, as is the requirement to reply within two days to comment about today's meeting. We have read the documentation carefully and something really irritating is that if her absence for tonsillitis had lasted one day longer it wouldn't have counted for this process as it wouldn't have been "short term". I find this particularly galling as I didn't think she was fit to return to work and offered to drive her in if she insisted on being silly but she just went. Staff who have had many months of absence are completely immune from this particular culling! Edited June 16, 2014 by Tony_S Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now