Why are preserved railways so unpopular as layout subjects

[The Black Hat]

hope i'm not too late to the party on this - the way I see it, you are free to model whatever you want, your money, your trains, your time, your effort. But I think a lot of people see it as a bit of a cop-out to model 'preservation' as it's just an excuse to run whatever you want with whatever you want, on a 'preserved' line that isn't really preserved with stock and motive power that also wasn't preserved. Sure there are some exemptions, but on the whole this is how I perceive it. I think there's something more gratifying to the hobby when you can say that this would've happened, with this loco and this stock, but that's just my take on it. AND everyone is free to model what they want, and this is no comment on the quality or accuracy of the models.

 

Now time to go read the entire thread and (probably) realize my views have already been stated.

 

- Jack

 

While some might have mentioned it before, theres nothing wrong with mentioning it again. I think your partly right about a few people just wanting to run preservation as an excuse to buy any engine from any time period and run the lot along side each other. I make sure that I try to get most of the engines I have renumbered to be examples of engines that are preserved. The downfall of that is that the railways where the engines are known to be would suddenly be short on motive power as they all seem to operate on mine! Of course even I make the odd exception, like a train of Gaffar coaches dubbed a mock teak set as in new build that is supposed to look old but actually are run as a new build rake designed to look the part, and the odd new build engine like a J39.

 

I think operation makes it as much a real preserved layout as much as the clutter of an HQ station or depot, which my preserved layout isnt. In the end, the differences in this make the comparrisons all the more fun!

[RadBen22]

Well its been really interesting reading peoples comments on this topic. Personally I have modelled a preserved railway as this is what I have witnessed myself of steam. The layout is just as accurate as any 1960s period BR model railway. The same rules just have to be applied just in a modern setting.

 

The railway has a "home fleet" of locomotives consisting of mainly LNER based locomotives and rolling stock similar to the NYMR including a rake of teaks and an ass preserved representation of 60007 as well as its support coach. The lines home fleet also includes some southern locomotives (Taw Valley), LMS locomotives (including 45305 alderman A E. Draper) and smaller industrial stock. I also have over 100 other locomotives which visit on special gala occasions by road or on the main line connection loop. Just like a railway which a 1960s purist for BR would insist on, all locomotives and rolling stock on the railway really are the preserved examples on real preserved lines and nothing else. I do not run locos which do not exist any more and those models I do have match exactly the liveries they are preserved in. For example 60163 Tornado is currently represented in BR blue with its support coach but as of next April when the real loco becomes Apple green so will the model I choose to use.

 

I have also incorporated as part of my model railway a museum which acts as a fictitious out house to the NRM similar to Shildon. This includes a separate demonstration line where NRM locos (only those in steam at present in real life) can be seen pushing and pulling brake van rides much like at Shildon. This includes the replica rocket and 70013 Oliver Cromwell. The museum contains almost a complete collection of NRM stock in 00 gauge exactly as they are preserved. I was even able to replicate the great gathering in the museum thanks to Hornby's great gathering set. I also have had the NRMs very own 09 shunter in private NRM livery produced for shunting exhibits much as its done at York.

 

The railway the majority of the time consists of regular 5 or 6 coach trains of non-matching stock with a variety of sized steam and diesel traction. I do have gala days including a diesel gala (again only with actual preserved diesel numbers) and a steam gala where higher profile locomotives such as duke of gloucester, city of truro or duchess of sutherland would visit to name but a few of many examples.

 

I dont consider this playing trains as such as I do model based on an existing concept and stick to the same rules, all be it less restricting than BR, as current preserved lines. I thoroughly enjoy modelling this current period and like being able to represent in 00 what gives me such happiness in real life. If anything i think it has been hard to achieve this representation with such detail as I have had to model exactly what I see and be strict with changes currently in place in real life. For example 4771 green arrow was a fond choice of mine but will now be forever restricted to the museum until the real one steams again if i am to keep the realism going,

 

As a rough gauge i would say my model railway is 6-8 months behind the real world and changes accordingly. Its fun watching the changes on real preserved rAilways and adopting mine accordingly. I am looking forward to running 6100 royal scot in BR green when it returns to steam next year as well as if im lucky 4472 which has now not ran since it was withdrawn in 2005. Yes my model is a kit of parts in the works too just as the real one is.

 

Hope this was mildly interesting for you anyway.

 

Thanks

[Torn-on-the-platform]

I like your philosophy! I would be interested to see some photos of your layout to put it into context if possible?

 

Your locomotive policy is a little stricter than I would employ. It is my intention that when I get round to building Moretonhampstead, the 'home fleet' will consist entirely of un-preserved examples, but I would come up with a back story for each loco as to how it came to be preserved - to satisfy myself more than anything. I would feel a bit guilty 'stealing' a preserved example from another railway! Behind closed doors, rule one will firmly apply, but if I were to exhibit the layout I would come up with a scenario, most likely a gala in a certain year. Any 'visiting' loco would have to be in the correct livery that its bigger equivalent would have carried at that time. Edit: Only a selection of the home fleet will be 'steamable' for each year portrayed, with others waiting for, or under overhaul.

 

As it is a similar line, coaching formations and operation will be heavily influenced by the practice of the South Devon Railway.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Torn-on-the-platform

[phil-b259]

While some might have mentioned it before, theres nothing wrong with mentioning it again. I think your partly right about a few people just wanting to run preservation as an excuse to buy any engine from any time period and run the lot along side each other. I make sure that I try to get most of the engines I have renumbered to be examples of engines that are preserved. The downfall of that is that the railways where the engines are known to be would suddenly be short on motive power as they all seem to operate on mine! Of course even I make the odd exception, like a train of Gaffar coaches dubbed a mock teak set as in new build that is supposed to look old but actually are run as a new build rake designed to look the part, and the odd new build engine like a J39.

 

I think operation makes it as much a real preserved layout as much as the clutter of an HQ station or depot, which my preserved layout isnt. In the end, the differences in this make the comparrisons all the more fun!

 

I try and go the other way and steer clear of locos that are already in preservation. The other draw is that apart from some unavoidable dirty bits here and there, preserved locos are generally kept nice and clean by their owners.  The downside of course is I have to imagine a world where a lot more scrapyards went down the Barry route, plus a bit of adjustment to when BR withdrew various classes - but hey its my railway so I make the rules.

[ess1uk]

i saw a good model of the Rushden Station site the other week at their model exhibition.

[Caddy]

I am late coming to this thread but here are some rambling thoughts.

 

I have often thought that if i started over I would like to model a standard gauge preserved or heritage line. They are very much part of our railway heritage now with many approaching 50 years of service during the next decade, and the old Bluebell nearly 60 years! That means that whole generations of workers have contributed to their development and they really do have their own histories.

 

I had the good fortune to visit the Swanage Railway last October on a normal working day. It had been raining when I alighted at Corfe Castle. I spent 15 minutes enjoying a rather Betjeman like experience waiting for the train to return from Norden. I saw the signalman in the box and a relief guard walked up on to the platform and chat with the porter. The sense I had all through the day was that these people, these volunteers were actually running a railway. They were professionals in every sense of the word.

 

Another experience I really enjoyed was at Bodmin where you have the two lines merging at the station. I think this would make a great model in the preservation era. If you set it some years back in "Speedlink" days there was also a regular freight trip to Fitzgeralds Lighting I think. Does anyone have details of how that worked? Were the VGA's ever steam hauled?

 

For anyone collecting modern road vehicles, the car parks at a railway site would be a boon with of course a preserved bus pr two thrown in for good measure.

 

The research would be fun too, looking through old Railway Magazines etc to find what locos were running where and when?

 

I think I might be talking myself into this.

[andyram]

I am also new to this page, but thought that I would add my thoughts too. At the age of 39 I am too young to remember steam at work on the national network, yet my railway interest is purely steam. I have grown up on a diet of preserved railways and still visit them whenever I can. As a result when planning a model railway I definitely steer towards preservation as I have no particular bias towards one era or region.

 My collection does feature many models of preserved locomotives. These can be particular locos I have seen and / or ridden behind. As a Great Central volunteer I will always buy models of past and present members of the home fleet and also those that have visited. I also stretch this to include the Severn Valley and North Yorkshire Moors railways as these are also favourites.

 Currently the main manufacturers are seeing the pull of the preservation era by producing models of preserved stations. Sheffield Park, Highley, Rothley, Goathland and Butterley are amongst those to have featured. I have a part build preserved model, based on Goathland, which is languishing in my garage following a house move. I ran this as a preserved line with a small, regular stud of engines and visitors as required.

 My long term plan is to build a loft layout. This will either be a fictional preserved line or a model of Quorn and Woodhouse on the preserved G.C. I am yet to decide. But the idea of modelling the true operations of the G.C with authentic locomotives and rolling stock definitely appeals. I may draw the line at naming a 9F "Cromwell" or painting some mark 1's into Pullman livery though.

[PhilJ W]

Andy, if you want to model a preserved railway perhaps a fictional railway would be better then you could run whatever you like including extinct types.

[andyram]

Considering the number of extinct types I have I think that would be a very good idea. The garage layout described above, may be based on Goathland, but is a fictional terminus called Skaleby. It did make use of some extinct models. I made many mistakes with this layout though so starting from scratch looks likely once the loft is up and running. Mind you, the garage seems nice and dry and has power so it could be that I will revive this model too.  Maybe I could do both..one accurate and one fictional!!!

 I would like to see some serious models of preserved railways out there on the show circuit. Many of the models I have seen seem to fit the bill of I will call it preserved so I can run anything I like. No harm in that at all as that is why I built Skaleby as a preserved railway. I do think there is a niche for accurate models of real preserved lines. I can't think of many at present other than a couple of Severn Valley ones that I have seen on this site.

[andyram]

I know what  you mean Mickey - but they do have a charm all to themselves and you can see some unusual workings, especially if you visit lines during midweek as I do during the school holidays.

[dana]

modeling preserved railways in the beginning with closed or threatened stations , small engines and the odd coach or two, demolition trains trundling through from other parts of the country, first trains containing  the local mayor and council plus other dignitary's  ,WEEDY YARDS ,  ITEMS  ARRIVING BY OFFICIAL MEANS OR THE BACK OF A LORRY ( SCRAP METAL THEFT  WAS A PROBLEM  BACK THEN TOO ACCORDING TO A LETTER WRITTEN IN THE RAILWAY MAGAZINE FROM 1971 Complaining OF THOSE PROFITING FROM STATIONS BEING CLOSED )  weathered hulks with x or condemned on them  or save for xxx society  or donated via holiday camps  ( Butlin's etc ). This way engines like big Bertha had they lasted as long could be justified on a preserved layout  .

[johnarcher]

With regard to what Mickey said above (quote doesn't seem to work), I agree. For me I think it is that the sort of lines that get preserved were once part of the rural community (for passengers and freight), the preserved version mainly serves tourists. (Great if that's the only way to preserve them, but it's not as real somehow).

Also they're too clean!

[Reorte]

With regard to what Mickey said above (quote doesn't seem to work), I agree. For me I think it is that the sort of lines that get preserved were once part of the rural community (for passengers and freight), the preserved version mainly serves tourists. (Great if that's the only way to preserve them, but it's not as real somehow).

Also they're too clean!

I know what you mean, although there's something not "real" about most of the world these days for me (although in a different sense). Although I'm rural at heart one of the things I like about the East Lancs Railway is that Bury Bolton Street is very much a town station, rather different from most other preserved railways I've been to. However they another aspect of railways, just as worthy of being modelled as any other. I suppose that some things just fire peoples' imagination more than others when it comes to modelling.

 

Has any preserved railway every carefully done some easily removable weathering for a genuine 60s weekend?

Edited October 14, 2014 by Reorte

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Heritage railways do a remarkable job in preserving and recreating the past. I admire all who give their time freely and spend hours lovingly restoring items. Long may they prosper and fluorish.

 

But in modelling terms, to me they are rather like a glorified train set. And I don't want a model of a train set.

 

Atmosphere-wise many leave me cold and some are just too twee for my liking. The beauty of a "real" railway is that it's not a manicured cosseted world, where every building seems to have a window box and platforms have tubs of glorious flowering plants, but a working environment. Where locos have dents and scrapes, wagons look like they work for a living, coaches are not always polished and buildings have blocked gutters.

[bike2steam]

I agree with both Mickey, and Peter, also, most of the time, there is not the variety of workings, unless you like modelling a small branch line ( been there), working on a heritage railway ( been there)is similar, there could be no more than two, or three locos in steam at any one time, seeing the same loco, and stock again - and again. I know there are exceptions like the SVR on a gala weekend but as Mickey said - like a zoo.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I don't think that I accept the basic premise that modelling preserved lines is unpopular. There are quite a few such layouts out there - including some very good ones such as Ropley.

 

I think if I were to model one, it would have to be a site such as Kidderminster with a variety of "real" trains as well as the preserved stuff.

[johnarcher]

As Reorte said, they are a form of railway, still worthy of modelling. I have seen, in another place online, a 5.5mm model of the preserved Talyllyn that is really impressive. I suspect that was produced in the usual way 'I want to model that, so I'll need this and that etc', whereas some preserved models are maybe (I could be wrong) produced more like 'I have one of these, I'd like one of those, and one of those, there's no way they'd be seen together so I'll call it a preserved line and run anything from a Triang 'Rocket' to a TGV.'

If someone wants to do that that's completely their choice and their enjoyment, but I suspect many other people might find the result unconvincing, and extend that to the idea of modelling preserved lines at all.

 

Personally as I said I'd agree with Peter above, good though the Talyllyn one is, the real, working, Talyllyn may be a bit more interesting?

I like the idea of weathering the preserved stock too.

[Reorte]

Atmosphere-wise many leave me cold and some are just too twee for my liking. The beauty of a "real" railway is that it's not a manicured cosseted world, where every building seems to have a window box and platforms have tubs of glorious flowering plants, but a working environment. Where locos have dents and scrapes, wagons look like they work for a living, coaches are not always polished and buildings have blocked gutters.

Yet even as a working environment it's varied massively over the years, locos being mostly shiny was probably fairly accurate at one time, completely covered in grime for another. Would a preserved railway look even more twee if it had neat weed-free ballast, a clear well-defined cess path and clear embankments? I suppose it all depends on exactly what a preserved railway is supposed to be, a model of a period in 12":1', keeping a line running in some form or another, or something just there for show? Most seem to be the last of those. In some ways it's a bit odd but in others it's just a reflection on what's practical.

 

Another thing about preserved railways is probably what their aim is - and this is the same with modellers  (indeed there's been a thread on it recently) - is it there for the railway or the rolling stock?

Edited October 14, 2014 by Reorte

[Colin_McLeod]

One of the joys of the Railway Preservation Society of Ireland's tours is that they are all on the "real railway" and not a twee station in sight.

 

http://www.steamtrainsireland.com/

[Reorte]

Why all the "twee" comments? To be fair I share the feeling to some extent but I'd rather have twee than falling down, or a bus shelter on a platform. When did "attractive and looked-after" turn in to something to look down on? Considering so much that's new is "functional souless" give me a bit more twee. This is, however, a much wider issue than preserved railways.

[Arthur]

Why all the "twee" comments? To be fair I share the feeling to some extent but I'd rather have twee than falling down, or a bus shelter on a platform. When did "attractive and looked-after" turn in to something to look down on? Considering so much that's new is "functional souless" give me a bit more twee. This is, however, a much wider issue than preserved railways.

 

I don't think that 'twee' is being used pejoratively, rather more to get a sense across as to why the preservation scene doesn't appeal to many modellers. Nobody has been dismissive of the preservation scene nor of preservationists and agreed, much better than than the old stations and lines being demolished.

 

I think that twee is being used to contrast with the grit and grime which is, oddly, much of the appeal in modelling the late steam early diesel era.

 

Mickey has already said this his post 185.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I've absolutely nothing against preserved railways or heritage projects looking neat, tidy and well-cared for. I wouldn't expect anything less. Likewise, I'd expect a model of the Midland Railway c1900 to have clean locos and stock, neat permanent way (at least the passenger carrying lines) and well looked after infrastructure.

 

But the original question was why are these lines unpopular as layouts. A 1900s layout of the MR represents the railways of that period. A more grimy outlook might pertain on a 1960s model set in Lancashire. But that was the reality of a time and a place. Preserved lines are often an amalgamation of different periods and it doesn't quite work for me I'm afraid.

[bike2steam]

Preserved lines are often an amalgamation of different periods and it doesn't quite work for me I'm afraid.

Although he had a great admiration for the dedication of those involved on preserved lines, I can remember the late Robert Adley had a similar point of view.

[Robin Brasher]

I am modelling the preserved Swanage Railway in 00 gauge and in N gauge although I also run it as it was before preservation. There are some disadvantages of modelling a preserved line. The prototype buildings are always being developed so the model can quickly become out of date. Locomotives and to a lessor extent rolling stock move to other railways so it is difficult to keep up to date. Most of the trains are five coach passenger trains so there is less variety in operation than in pre preservation days with through trains to Salisbury, Basingstoke and Waterloo, goods and clay trains. The public and not just enthusiasts know what the prototype looks like so I cannot get away with operating present day trains at Corfe Castle Station without a footbridge.

 

The advantages are that it attracts local people who are not interested in model railways. For instance local female artists like the scenery.It also means that I can justify running engines and rolling stock that I like, Tornado and Bittern and the Devon Belle observation car being examples. It is also easy run models of what is running on the prototype on the same day.

[johnarcher]

I know I said they're too clean, but that wasn't wholly serious, I'm looking with eyes used to the late Irish narrow gauge!

Mind you, if you look at Martyn Welch's weathering book even pre-grouping stock doesn't look spotless, and things in the 30's could be quite grubby.

Still that's not my real point, that's about how the original line was a working, living, part of its region, and, unfortunately, a preserved one can't be (if it could the original line would presumably have continued to be viable).

But that's just my preference, as I said I'm delighted people have made the effort to preserve these lines.