Strange Prototype (of what?) in East Anglia

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

OK - what's the betting it was built to different standards and wouldn't fit ??!?

It's probably narrow gauge like the BCT trams🙂

[ruggedpeak]

https://press.hse.gov.uk/2023/05/13/hse-to-prosecute-cambridgeshire-county-council-over-busway-deaths/

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-65984129

Edited August 18, 2023 by ruggedpeak
typo/edit

[PhilJ W]

5 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

https://press.hse.gov.uk/2023/05/13/hse-to-prosecute-cambridgeshire-county-council-over-busway-deaths/

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-65984129

It seems a bit unfair to prosecute the council as in all four cases the victims were trespassing. 

[ruggedpeak]

14 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

It seems a bit unfair to prosecute the council as in all four cases the victims were trespassing. 

The prosecution is under s.3(1) of HASAWA which states:

 

It shall be the duty of every employer to conduct his undertaking in such a way as to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that persons not in his employment who may be affected thereby are not thereby exposed to risks to their health or safety. [my bold]

 

Worth noting that there are still legal responsibilities to 'trespassers' (and I make no comment on the nature of these particular individuals' presence in or around the busway) as well as people legitimately at a location, some of which is covered by legislation pre-dating the Health & Safety at Work Act. Hence lifebelts at fenced off waterfilled old quarry pits etc.

 

As this is ongoing, it is sub judice and the Mods may get a bit tetchy if we speculate on the detail. The details will come out if/when the case goes to court. The act of prosecution does not mean the council are guilty.

[Talltim]

Do councils get prosecuted for similar incidents on the roads in their care?

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Talltim said:

Do councils get prosecuted for similar incidents on the roads in their care?

You mean a busway isn't a road?

Well I never.

[John Isherwood]

4 hours ago, melmerby said:

You mean a busway isn't a road?

Well I never.

 

It certainly isn't a public highway - often called a 'road'.

 

CJI.

[phil-b259]

On 16/08/2023 at 17:33, woodenhead said:

We've got one locally, it's to avoid the A580 between Worsley & Leigh, again along an old rail route in places.

 

But I still don't get the purpose of the guided bit because it creates blockages, why not simply use tarmac but make the route bus only, and then you don't even specialist buses either.

 

Two reasons:-

 

(1) If the busses are guided then the ‘lanes’ can be placed closer together as there is no chance of a driver ‘drifting’ into the other lane. That in turn makes it easier to use a double track railway formation which is actually significantly narrower than a single carriageway road (particularly one which includes pedestrian facilities) is

 

(2) It’s impossible for car drivers to ‘accidentally’ (I.e. ignore ‘busses only signage) drive down it.

 

On 16/08/2023 at 17:33, woodenhead said:

 

It's like we cannot afford a train line, we cannot even afford a tram line so we'll build something tram like out of a bus but lose the benefits of a vehicle that can guide itself around problems.

 

Well yes, it cannot be denied thAt cost is a big reason why these things are popular in certain circles. However on the flip side because the guided busses can use ordinary roads it’s also possible to extend services into smaller settlements where a tram wouldn’t have a hope in hell of being justified.

 

In an ideal world the Worsley and Leigh route is best suited to a tram - train setup* (train from Victoria station then branches off the Wigan line at say Walkden to become a tram to Leigh)

 

 

* The Eccles branch of Metrolink is simply too slow and wiggly to make journey times from Leigh acceptable as a straight Metrolink extension. 

[melmerby]

14 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

(1) If the busses are guided then the ‘lanes’ can be placed closer together as there is no chance of a driver ‘drifting’ into the other lane. That in turn makes it easier to use a double track railway formation which is actually significantly narrower than a single carriageway road (particularly one which includes pedestrian facilities) is

 

How about a Faller type system where the bus follows a wire? A modern system should be able to keep the buses apart but still a lot closer than on a normal roadway

Then if required a broken down bus could be overtaken with a driver's intervention

[hmrspaul]

10 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

It seems a bit unfair to prosecute the council as in all four cases the victims were trespassing. 

It is unreasonable to suggest that pedestrians are trespassing. The non fatal accident was very close to where my son lives and. I believe, was on an uncontrolled pedestrian crossing of the busway. I believe it was in the dark (we were visiting when the police called looking for witnesses late one evening).  There is also a walk/cycle way the entire length of the busway without any fencing or other protective mechanism. There are some mechanisms to prevent cars from going on the busway, and lots of signs but it certainly isn't protected like railways are - but then neither are ordinary roads. 

 

Paul

[John Isherwood]

10 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

It is unreasonable to suggest that pedestrians are trespassing. The non fatal accident was very close to where my son lives and. I believe, was on an uncontrolled pedestrian crossing of the busway. I believe it was in the dark (we were visiting when the police called looking for witnesses late one evening).  There is also a walk/cycle way the entire length of the busway without any fencing or other protective mechanism. There are some mechanisms to prevent cars from going on the busway, and lots of signs but it certainly isn't protected like railways are - but then neither are ordinary roads. 

 

Paul

 

I know the location well - being very close to where we formerly lived in Cambridge.

 

The section in question is not GUIDED busway - simply a bus-only road comprising two surfaced wheel tracks.

 

As such, I see no additional hazard than any other road - the buses have the same headlight and internal lighting as any other bus.

 

What we have here is a very unfortunate collision between a pedestrian and a bus - no more, no less.

 

CJI.

[hmrspaul]

5 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

I know the location well - being very close to where we formerly lived in Cambridge.

 

The section in question is not GUIDED busway - simply a bus-only road comprising two surfaced wheel tracks.

 

As such, I see no additional hazard than any other road - the buses have the same headlight and internal lighting as any other bus.

 

What we have here is a very unfortunate collision between a pedestrian and a bus - no more, no less.

 

CJI.

I haven't a clue what the difference is, or why you seem to be suggesting I am mistaken. The signs are clearly for a "Guided Bus" and there are "car trap"s 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.231934,0.1187175,3a,75y,87.35h,90.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHiTx7I4Zh2d70cA2HaPdBA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

 

It must take considerable concentration to drive down them because they are quite narrow and the guidance, which does exist, is limited I believe to where the car traps are positioned. 

 

My point was to agree with you, it cannot be trespass, there is nothing special about the buses. What I am not aware of is what the limitation on speed is, they seem quite fast, perhaps greater than the usual 30mph. What is noticeable is the crossing near my sons' home does NOT have any controlling lights etc. It does have some half barriers near the entrance to the crossing. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.2327585,0.1211428,3a,75y,110.8h,73.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sn3lr4o8C54TRA3J-4T7F2Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu

 

The associated crossing of the main Kings Hedges Road is noticeably safer as it has a controlled pedestrian crossing. The paving alongside the busway encourages fast cycling, children to play, run and all to walk. Cycling on a similar pavement along a road used to be against the highway code but nowadays I accept is encouraged in many places. 

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by hmrspaul

[John Isherwood]

5 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

I haven't a clue what the difference is, or why you seem to be suggesting I am mistaken. The signs are clearly for a "Guided Bus" and there are "car trap"s 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.231934,0.1187175,3a,75y,87.35h,90.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHiTx7I4Zh2d70cA2HaPdBA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

 

It must take considerable concentration to drive down them because they are quite narrow and the guidance, which does exist, is limited I believe to where the car traps are positioned. 

 

My point was to agree with you, it cannot be trespass, there is nothing special about the buses. What I am not aware of is what the limitation on speed is, they seem quite fast, perhaps greater than the usual 30mph. What is noticeable is the crossing near my sons' home does NOT have any controlling lights etc. It does have some half barriers near the entrance to the crossing. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.2327585,0.1211428,3a,75y,110.8h,73.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sn3lr4o8C54TRA3J-4T7F2Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu

 

The associated crossing of the main Kings Hedges Road is noticeably safer as it has a controlled pedestrian crossing. The paving alongside the busway encourages fast cycling, children to play, run and all to walk. Cycling on a similar pavement along a road used to be against the highway code but nowadays I accept is encouraged in many places. 

 

Paul

 

 

First, let us be clear - I am not suggesting that you are mistaken.

 

Nonetheless, I am VERY familiar with King's Hedges Road - I designed and supervised its construction back in the 1970s, and we lived less than a quarter of a mile from the site of this incident for forty years!

 

It is now over eleven years since we left Cambridge, but I watched the construction of the unguided section of the basway, adjacent to KHRd., with some consternation! I could not see how the bus drivers would be able to remain on the two narrow wheel tracks.

 

Indeed, when this section went 'live', ruts in the adjacent grass indicated that I was justified in my concern. However, it seems that the drivers 'got the hang of it', and the ruts became less frequent.

 

All this is neither here nor there; anyone regularly using the paths adjacent to the busway cannot fail to be aware of its purpose - it hardly has a low profile, after all!

 

Where pedestrians choose to cross the busway is up to them, but wherever it is, the same care is needed as when crossing any other road.

 

A bus is a bus is a bus - just because it is guided elsewhere in its journey does not demand that it should be fenced like a railway.

 

I note that tramways are not deemed to require fencing from society - and these run through far greater concentrations of pedestrians, at speeds which equal if not exceed, those of the buses on the Kings Hedges Road unguided busway.

 

As for the sites of the fatal incidents in the Cambridgeshire villages, these crossing points are provided with very prominent traffic signals for both road vehicles and pedestrians - whether the latter obey them, I cannot say.

 

All in all, this H&S prosecution of Cambs.C.C. is yet another example of the nanny state trying to protect society from itself! The more that personal responsibility for our own safety is eroded, the more 'accidents' will occur.

 

John Isherwood.

 

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by cctransuk

[John Isherwood]

4 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

I haven't a clue what the difference is, or why you seem to be suggesting I am mistaken. The signs are clearly for a "Guided Bus" and there are "car trap"s 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.231934,0.1187175,3a,75y,87.35h,90.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHiTx7I4Zh2d70cA2HaPdBA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

 

It must take considerable concentration to drive down them because they are quite narrow and the guidance, which does exist, is limited I believe to where the car traps are positioned.

 

Paul,

 

Having re-read the above, perhaps a little more information would assist.

 

The main guided busway has high, kerb-like concrete 'rails' either side of the running 'tracks'.

 

Mounted adjacent to the front, steering wheels of the bus are horizontal guide wheels, which run against the face of the 'kerb rails', and take over the steering from the driver - who retains the acceleration and braking control.

 

The section of 'unguided busway' parallel to Kings Hedges Road is exceptional, in that it does NOT have 'kerb rails' except at the 'bus gates', (where they help in centring the bus wheels on the wheel tracks). However, elsewhere on this section, the driver retains steering control.

 

John Isherwood.

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, cctransuk said:

The section of 'unguided busway' parallel to Kings Hedges Road is exceptional, in that it does NOT have 'kerb rails' except at the 'bus gates', (where they help in centring the bus wheels on the wheel tracks). However, elsewhere on this section, the driver retains steering control.

I wonder whether the notice "Guided Buses Only" is there because the route only goes to the main guided route, where there is a T junction.

Non guided buses would be a PITA.

 

[John Isherwood]

10 hours ago, melmerby said:

I wonder whether the notice "Guided Buses Only" is there because the route only goes to the main guided route, where there is a T junction.

Non guided buses would be a PITA.

 

 

Precisely!

 

CJI.

[LNERGE]

 

 

19 hours ago, melmerby said:

I wonder whether the notice "Guided Buses Only" is there because the route only goes to the main guided route, where there is a T junction.

Non guided buses would be a PITA.

 

I much prefer what was there before. Far more interesting...

 

https://historicengland.org.uk/images-books/archive/collections/aerial-photos/record/RAF_106G_UK_1490_RP_3331

 

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by LNERGE

[LNERGE]

This is perhaps a better image?

 

https://historicengland.org.uk/images-books/archive/collections/aerial-photos/record/US_7PH_GP_LOC285_V_5022

[John Isherwood]

39 minutes ago, LNERGE said:

This is perhaps a better image?

 

https://historicengland.org.uk/images-books/archive/collections/aerial-photos/record/US_7PH_GP_LOC285_V_5022

 

Until relatively recently, the mass-concrete bufferstop blocks within the former munitions dump remained in-situ.

 

CJI.

[LNERGE]

37 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Until relatively recently, the mass-concrete bufferstop blocks within the former munitions dump remained in-situ.

 

CJI.

Is there a photo anywhere?