Identification of stock at Frome

[RCP]

Hello,

 

I've been rather busy with a new arrival in the family so modelling has taken a back seat and I've resigned to research only. I've been trying to establish the type of stock seen at Frome circa 1934. Britain from above has some good photos from 1947 which I thought I could use as a rough guide. Can anyone help identify any of these items below?

 

First up are some old carriages that I presume appeared when it was remodelled in 1933.

https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW005119

 

This picture is from 1929/1930 so closer to my me point. I'm interesting in the rake of coaches and the siphons in the milk bay any guesses would be great.

 

https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EPW027741

 

And finally this is the siding at the end of the good shed. I'm trying to identify the model of the crane and the funny looking wagon at the opposite end to the 3 plank LMS wagon. Seems to have curved ends.

 

https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW002015

 

 

 

Bonus points for whatever these flatbeds are carrying. Looks interesting:

 

 

[jwealleans]

I don't do GWR so I can't help with the carriages, but wagons are much more my thing.

 

From the bottom up;

 

I think those bogie bolsters are carrying tree trunks, maybe stripped of bark, maybe just a light colour.   A fairly common load.

 

your open is either LSWR or LBSCR.    From a modelling point if view the LBSC one is available from Cambrian.   The LSWR (which I think is more likely) was a D & S kit which may reappear in the revived ABS range as it returns to market.  The Cambrian in plastic, the ABS will be whitemetal.   Whatever you prefer.

 

Overall there are a lot of LMS wagons visible: was there a traffic from somewhere on the LMS system, or is this on a through freight route to somewhere more major?

[Hal Nail]

The right hand of the two grounded coaches looks very wide (possibly both of them). Broad gauge?

Edited October 16 by Hal Nail

[RCP]

16 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

Overall there are a lot of LMS wagons visible: was there a traffic from somewhere on the LMS system, or is this on a through freight route to somewhere more major?

Frome had a bypass by this point for the main route London to Plymouth (I think?) but was a junction for the Bristol to Frome line. It was/is a mid sized town with the major industry being wool mills aka carpets. It was sat between witham and westbury, with Radstock to the north. I guess that quite a few of the wagons might have arrived via the SDJR at Radstock.

[RCP]

27 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

The right hand of the two grounded coaches looks very wide (possibly both of them). Broad gauge?

Yeah that’s what I thought but it’s so far out of Knowledge depth I didn’t want to call it. Let alone try and assign a type. Could also be an optical illusion? The other issue is that they aren’t there in the earlier 1929 and 1930 pictures so seems late in the day for broad gauge stock to be appearing, perhaps a coach that was converted before finally being dumped. They appear next to the location of the old South signal box along with some unfinished buildings. My guess is that they were going to be the replacement PW huts as the old ones in the east side disappeared with the expansion of the yard

Edited October 16 by RCP
Extra info

[RCP]

40 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

Overall there are a lot of LMS wagons visible: was there a traffic from somewhere on the LMS system, or is this on a through freight route to somewhere more major?

 

The Radstock connection with the SDJR has me thinking that Frome might have been an ideal location to marshal wagons that needed to be returned to their owner. It would also be another tick in the box for a  LSWR wagon.

[Hal Nail]

3 hours ago, RCP said:

The other issue is that they aren’t there in the earlier 1929 and 1930 pictures so seems late in the day for broad gauge stock to be appearing, perhaps a coach that was converted before finally being dumped.

 

My knowledge of that era is very poor but looking at photos generally, the style seems a bit late as well. I did also wonder if they have been widened or as you said, just an optical illusion.

Edited Wednesday at 10:59 by Hal Nail

[RCP]

 

Prize Cattle wagon? Only issue is it has vents. Were there types of these with vents?

[Miss Prism]

I think that's a grounded body.

 

The other grounded bodies in your pictures look to have elliptical roofs, so could be ex-LSWR stock.

[RCP]

27 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

I think that's a grounded body.

 

The other grounded bodies in your pictures look to have elliptical roofs, so could be ex-LSWR stock.

 

It is a grounded body, I just trying to work out what it was originally so I can model it. Thanks for the hint on LSWR I'll take that as a starting point.

[Miss Prism]

https://peco-uk.com/products/grounded-coach-body?variant=7435747328034

 

[RCP]

42 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

https://peco-uk.com/products/grounded-coach-body?variant=7435747328034

 

I was hoping for a slightly more accurate model.  This is for my final retirement project in 20 years 😁

[johnofwessex]

There is no connection between the GWR & S&D at Radstock except via a colliery (I think) so you cant send wagons back via Frome

[RCP]

41 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

There is no connection between the GWR & S&D at Radstock except via a colliery (I think) so you cant send wagons back via Frome

That’s that theory out the window. Which begs the question why so many LMS wagons.

[Compound2632]

13 hours ago, jwealleans said:

 

Overall there are a lot of LMS wagons visible: was there a traffic from somewhere on the LMS system, or is this on a through freight route to somewhere more major?

 

Common user. Nothing special here. There were a lot of LMS wagons! The one to the right of the round-ended wagon is a five-plank. 

[RCP]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Common user. Nothing special here. There were a lot of LMS wagons! The one to the right of the round-ended wagon is a five-plank. 

is that LMS 5 plank? I guess that given this was straight after WW2 in 1947 there probably was more stock mixed round the system then before.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, RCP said:

is that LMS 5 plank? I guess that given this was straight after WW2 in 1947 there probably was more stock mixed round the system then before.

 

From 1917, ordinary open wagons and covered goods wagons (vans) became common user - that is, any railway company could load them to any destination, irrespective of their owning company. Thus the stock of all companies became diffused through the railway system. At any location, even on the GWR, one would be more likely to see an LMS or LNER unfitted open or van than a GWR one, simply because the LMS and LNER's wagon fleets were considerably larger than the GWR's. The real rarity would be an SR wagon, as that company had a much smaller wagon fleet. By 1947, the common user system had been in existence for three decades. 

 

I was at an exhibition a few years ago at which there were two very nicely-modelled Southern BLTs set in the 1930s. Both had goods yards populated solely by SR wagons. Having inwardly tut-tutted at the first layout, I was about to tut-tut at the second when I realised it was set on the Isle of Wight.

[jwealleans]

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Common user. Nothing special here. There were a lot of LMS wagons!

 

That's understood, Stephen and you and I have discussed it at length before.   What i was getting at is that I saw it as an indication that this was on an inter-company freight route rather than only receiving traffic from elsewhere on the GW and also that much of that traffic - at least on the day the picture was taken - originated on the LMS.   There were almost as many LNER wagons, but there aren't too many here.

[RCP]

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

From 1917, ordinary open wagons and covered goods wagons (vans) became common user - that is, any railway company could load them to any destination, irrespective of their owning company. Thus the stock of all companies became diffused through the railway system. At any location, even on the GWR, one would be more likely to see an LMS or LNER unfitted open or van than a GWR one, simply because the LMS and LNER's wagon fleets were considerably larger than the GWR's. The real rarity would be an SR wagon, as that company had a much smaller wagon fleet. By 1947, the common user system had been in existence for three decades. 

I read something similar in the book GWR Goods Wagons. It was also stated that there was a 5:1 ratio of private owner wagons to company. I’m guessing that they wouldn’t be distributed equally though. You specifically mentioned unfitted. Would you see expect to see a higher composition of Gwr wagons on a a fitted express freight train? Would fruit traffic have a higher composition of Gwr wagons? The LSWR wagon I presume would be southern in this case?
 

 

Looks like I need more books anyway, any recommendations for an encyclopaedia on LMS wagons?

Edited Thursday at 05:40 by RCP

[jwealleans]

The two volumes of this are what you need for LMS wagons:

 

 

The equivalent LNER book spans 5 volumes and is by Peter Tatlow.

 

The SR equivalent is (I think) 4 volumes and by multiple authors.   You are correct that the LSWR open would be in SR livery by the time of your photograph.

 

There are a number of threads on here about the proportions and mix of wagons to be found during the Grouping era which you might find helpful.

 

 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, jwealleans said:

 

That's understood, Stephen and you and I have discussed it at length before.   What i was getting at is that I saw it as an indication that this was on an inter-company freight route rather than only receiving traffic from elsewhere on the GW and also that much of that traffic - at least on the day the picture was taken - originated on the LMS.   There were almost as many LNER wagons, but there aren't too many here.

 

I don't think one can infer anything. That LMS wagon could have been loaded from two stations down the line, or from Portsmouth or Newcastle.

 

1 hour ago, RCP said:

I read something similar in the book GWR Goods Wagons. It was also stated that there was a 5:1 ratio of private owner wagons to company. I’m guessing that they wouldn’t be distributed equally though. You specifically mentioned unfitted. Would you see expect to see a higher composition of Gwr wagons on a a fitted express freight train? Would fruit traffic have a higher composition of Gwr wagons? The LSWR wagon I presume would be southern in this case?

 

There were about as many PO wagons as railway company wagons but of course the vast majority were in coal or coke traffic. There would be some LMS and LNER wagons in coal traffic too but not many GWR or SR wagons. 

 

Fitted wagons became common user in the mid-30s so before then the fitted portion of an express goods train would be mostly the home company's wagons. Likewise more specialised wagons such as fruit - I'll have to dig out the list, which is in GWR Goods Wagons and in Tatlow's LNER Wagons Vol. 4. 

 

Specially constructed wagons such as Crocodiles were never common user, at least up to WW2.

 

1 hour ago, RCP said:

Looks like I need more books anyway

 

A slippery slope. Quite apart from the company books Jonathan mentioned, the Turton series on PO wagons from Lightmoor Press is now up to 17 volumes with another on the way...

 

The Tatlow LNER Wagons series covers wagons of the LNER constituents as well as wagons built by the LNER, likewise the Southern Wagons series, and GWR Goods Wagons hardly notices the grouping anyway. But LMS Wagons only covers LMS-built wagons. It was not until the mid-30s that the number of LMS built wagons equalled the number of LMS constituent wagons and even by 1947 the fleet was still 30% pre-grouping. So books on the wagons of the major LMS constituents would also be needed for more complete coverage.

 

At a rough reckoning, that's a library of nearly 40 books... More if modelling early BR. I said it is a slippery slope!

 

As my interest is really c. 1902, my library is not so large as I don't have all the post-grouping volumes, though I do have a completer set of Turton - the trouble is, once you've bought four or five, it becomes addictive.

[RCP]

1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

The two volumes of this are what you need for LMS wagons:

 

 

The equivalent LNER book spans 5 volumes and is by Peter Tatlow.

 

The SR equivalent is (I think) 4 volumes and by multiple authors.   You are correct that the LSWR open would be in SR livery by the time of your photograph.

 

There are a number of threads on here about the proportions and mix of wagons to be found during the Grouping era which you might find helpful.

 

 

Thank you for that. I’ve ordered the LMS ones and will look for the southern ones next 

[RCP]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

But LMS Wagons only covers LMS-built wagons. It was not until the mid-30s that the number of LMS built wagons equalled the number of LMS constituent wagons and even by 1947 the fleet was still 30% pre-grouping. So books on the wagons of the major LMS constituents would also be needed for more complete coverage.

Oh dear. I’m modelling 1934/35 hey ho

[RCP]

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Specially constructed wagons such as Crocodiles were never common user, at least up to WW2.

 
does that include the bolster bogie wagons with the tree trunks?

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, RCP said:

 
does that include the bolster bogie wagons with the tree trunks?

 

Yes, those would almost certainly br GWR wagons at this place in the 1930s but if the photo is 1947, possibly not necessarily.

 

7 minutes ago, RCP said:

Oh dear. I’m modelling 1934/35 hey ho

 

If you are modelling in 00, at least Rapido are giving you a flying start with an increasing number of late pre-grouping wagons.