New Heljan 00 Class 42 Warship

[Strathwood]

They were certainly seen at Bescot and sometimes at New Street from time to time although as I recall it was the NBL Class 43s rather than the 42s as these were heavily used on the LSWR mainline to Waterloo and helping out on their usual WR duties to be spared elsewhere that often. Some crews were not trained on both types either, hence 43s being very rare on the Southern.

 

 

Edited October 13 by Strathwood

[stovepipe]

This might of some interest - seven manufacturers previous Warship efforts.

 

 

[Halvarras]

1 hour ago, Phil Bullock said:

It’s hard to find concrete evidence but there’s a pretty robust suggestion that the LMR didn’t like the Swindon warships under their OHLE due to the position of their exhausts on the centre line and therefore directly under the wire.

 

I heard that too Phil, some decades ago now but no idea of the source......

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, Strathwood said:

They were certainly seen at Bescot and sometimes at New Street from time to time although as I recall it was the NBL Class 43s rather than the 42s as these were heavily used on the LSWR mainline to Waterloo and helping out on their usual WR duties to be spared elsewhere that often. Some crews were not trained on both types either, hence 43s being very rare on the Southern.

 

 

AIUI, the Southern actively discouraged their drivers from learning the 43s for fear of being lumbered with them. Like all NBL diesels, their reputation went before them! They were indeed a very rare sight on the WoE main line, and probably down to one being coincidentally rostered out of Exeter to a driver who happened to sign them.

 

I lived at Axminster throughout the Warship period and only saw two or three 43s on the route in that whole time. 

 

Any that did turn up were usually taken off at Salisbury and returned to the WR via Westbury for which route some Salisbury men were trained on them. 

[Captain Kernow]

After much thought and reflection, I have concluded that this new model does not resemble a Black 5.

 

[woodenhead]

8 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

After much thought and reflection, I have concluded that this new model does not resemble a Black 5.

 

Luckily there is not much call for a Black 5 in the south west or in the Forest of Dean

[Rugd1022]

4 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

It’s hard to find concrete evidence but there’s a pretty robust suggestion that the LMR didn’t like the Swindon warships under their OHLE due to the position of their exhausts on the centre line and therefore directly under the wire. They did of course get up to Crewe via Shrewsbury and filled in for absent Westerns on Padd-Birkenheads early on in their careers but haven’t seen evidence of them elsewhere in the West Midlands under OHLE. They were rare but not totally unknown at Worcester but no OHLE there… yet! 

 

Somewhere there is a grainy colour shot of a maroon 43 moving light engine between Coventry and Berkswell in '68, I'm sure one of us (possibly me!) has posted it in another thread. Wasn't there a parcels / van train that ran from Curzon St to Leamington and back at the time...?

[stovepipe]

17 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

AIUI, the Southern actively discouraged their drivers from learning the 43s for fear of being lumbered with them. Like all NBL diesels, their reputation went before them! They were indeed a very rare sight on the WoE main line, and probably down to one being coincidentally rostered out of Exeter to a driver who happened to sign them.

 

I lived at Axminster throughout the Warship period and only saw two or three 43s on the route in that whole time. 

 

Any that did turn up were usually taken off at Salisbury and returned to the WR via Westbury for which route some Salisbury men were trained on them. 

Reading the Book of the Warships it seems only Salisbury drivers signed 43s, and the only time they appeared on the WoE main line services was when there was a failure at the London end, and the Neath ~ Wimbledon coal train loco, usually a 43, was purloined to cover. 
 

The NBL period at New Street and the West Mids was from 1967, when the Paddington trains were worked by them from October. The diagrams also included some visits to Crewe on parcels work, which had not been visited by the class since mid-1964 when the North & West trains went over to class 47s.

[stovepipe]

11 minutes ago, Rugd1022 said:

 

Somewhere there is a grainy colour shot of a maroon 43 moving light engine between Coventry and Berkswell in '68, I'm sure one of us (possibly me!) has posted it in another thread. Wasn't there a parcels / van train that ran from Curzon St to Leamington and back at the time...?

 Yes that was a regular NBL duty apparently, D850 working regularly in Dec 1967.

[Fredo]

Hi, looking forward to the new Warships, the one I am most interested in is D800 as it along with D801/2 were non standard and withdrawn early. Fred

[SP Steve]

4 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

It’s hard to find concrete evidence but there’s a pretty robust suggestion that the LMR didn’t like the Swindon warships under their OHLE due to the position of their exhausts on the centre line and therefore directly under the wire. They did of course get up to Crewe via Shrewsbury and filled in for absent Westerns on Padd-Birkenheads early on in their careers but haven’t seen evidence of them elsewhere in the West Midlands under OHLE. They were rare but not totally unknown at Worcester but no OHLE there… yet! 

 This excerpt appears in BR 31451/5 "British Railways Western Region  Route Availabilty - Diesel Locomotives" dated February 1971.

[Kirby Uncoupler]

That's a great piece of evidence, the Class 42s had central exhaust ports and were banned, all the other classes listed below had offset exhausts and are allowed. I used to doubt this, since catenary wires are deliberated zig-zagged to even out the wear on the pantograph carbon heads, but now i'm convinced.   BK

[Wolf27]

Looks ok in these pics

[Peter Kazmierczak]

17 minutes ago, Kirby Uncoupler said:

That's a great piece of evidence, the Class 42s had central exhaust ports and were banned, all the other classes listed below had offset exhausts and are allowed. I used to doubt this, since catenary wires are deliberated zig-zagged to even out the wear on the pantograph carbon heads, but now i'm convinced.   BK

Yes, that's what I always thought; the zig-zag of the overhead contact wire meaning that central exhausts wouldn't really make a difference.  But now we have evidence in black and white...

Just had another thought. Since Crewe was the only place where Warships were fairly regularly (in their early days) under the wires - until a few appeared at Bescot - how did they know that the exhaust gases (from both engine and boiler) on the 42's caused long-term problems? Was there a specific incident which caused the restrictions? 

Edited October 13 by Peter Kazmierczak

[Phil Bullock]

59 minutes ago, SP Steve said:

 This excerpt appears in BR 31451/5 "British Railways Western Region  Route Availabilty - Diesel Locomotives" dated February 1971.

Excellent … thanks for sharing! Great to see D830 with its offset exhaust ports was allowed…. But bet it never did.

[robertcwp]

40 minutes ago, Wolf27 said:

Looks ok in these pics

I had a look at GETS today too and also studied two 0-gauge ones on a layout. I thought they looked OK. 

 

The main irritants for me are the wrong boiler vents and the walkways across the fan grilles. If these are separate from the grilles themselves then it might be possible to remove the walkways and do a bit of filling. The boiler vent above the nameplate on one side will be more problematic, though. The latter issue will also affect the GFYE D808 and any disc headcode ones. Others, eg D832 and D868, can be renumbered. D831 should be OK.

[AY Mod]

45 minutes ago, Wolf27 said:

Looks ok in these pics

 

The finish and lighting on that's more helpful elevating it to debatable rather than problematic.

[Halvarras]

15 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said:

Excellent … thanks for sharing! Great to see D830 with its offset exhaust ports was allowed…. But bet it never did.

 

D830 out of the picture by February 1971 Phil! But no, I'd also bet it never did......just don't ask me to put any real money on it though, cuz somebody somewhere will have a photo.......🥴!

[Halvarras]

7 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

I had a look at GETS today too and also studied two 0-gauge ones on a layout. I thought they looked OK. 

 

The main irritants for me are the wrong boiler vents and the walkways across the fan grilles. If these are separate from the grilles themselves then it might be possible to remove the walkways and do a bit of filling. The boiler vent above the nameplate on one side will be more problematic, though. The latter issue will also affect the GFYE D808 and any disc headcode ones. Others, eg D832 and D868, can be renumbered. D831 should be OK.

 

If Heljan goes to the trouble of tooling up the disc headcode version but neglects the train heating boiler details on this new and expensive model, that will be a major issue.

 

There was a reason why Mainline only ever did D823/4/5/7......

 

 

[Phil Bullock]

19 minutes ago, Halvarras said:

 

D830 out of the picture by February 1971 Phil! But no, I'd also bet it never did......just don't ask me to put any real money on it though, cuz somebody somewhere will have a photo.......🥴!

We can always hope!!! I only ever saw it the once and that was at STJ …. Easter 68 IIRC

[Tankerman]

The discussion on the shape of the Class 42 noses possibly varying because they were produced by different craftsmen brought back a memory from many years ago. Part of my employment as an engineer surveyor consisted of carrying out safety inspections on power presses. To cover the illness of another surveyor, I had to visit the AC Cobra factory, the front cowlings of which were also shaped by hand.

 

While there I was told that each cowling was produced by three teams of two panel beaters working in pairs and that, although  the differnces were not visible to anyone else, they could tell which team had produced a particular cowling. Perhaps the same  variations existed in the noses of the Warships?

Edited October 13 by Tankerman
misspelling

[robertcwp]

17 minutes ago, Tankerman said:

The discussion on the shape of the Class 42 noses possibly varying because they were produced by different craftsmen brought back a memory from many years ago. Part of my employment as an engineer surveyor consisted of carrying out safety inspections on power presses. To cover the illness of another surveyor, I had to visit the AC Cobra factory, the front cowlings of which were also shaped by hand.

 

While there I was told that each cowling was produced by three teams of two panel beaters working in pairs and that, although  the differnces were not visible to anyone else, they could tell which team had produced a particular cowling. Perhaps the same  variations existed in the noses of the Warships?

I did wonder if shapes differed even more as a result of repairs following minor collisions etc.

[robertcwp]

2 hours ago, SP Steve said:

 This excerpt appears in BR 31451/5 "British Railways Western Region  Route Availabilty - Diesel Locomotives" dated February 1971.

Useful. Thanks for posting. In 1967, there was a brief period when Warships worked the residual Paddington-Birmingham services, rerouted to New Street. Only Class 43s were permitted I believe. 

D838_BNS_5-10-67 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[adb968008]

I got a few more pics today..

Headcode boxes are definitely bigger.

 

 

having seen it in the flesh I think its not bad.

 

 

[MidlandRed]

1 hour ago, robertcwp said:

Useful. Thanks for posting. In 1967, there was a brief period when Warships worked the residual Paddington-Birmingham services, rerouted to New Street. Only Class 43s were permitted I believe. 

D838_BNS_5-10-67 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

The class 43 was declared surplus by the WR in the first National Traction Plan, which is possibly why the class 43s got redeployed. As the WR had completely eradicated steam by the end of 1965 they had turned attention to other surpluses (eg DMUs, class 14, diesel railbuses) - presumably they had sufficient work for class 42, and I also never saw any out of their normal haunts - did they get to Crewe in the early 60s on the Marches line, prior to replacement by Canton’s new class 47s circa 1964? The class 43s only ran the Birmingham to Paddington trains for a few weeks being replaced by class 47s. They had caused significant unreliability of the passenger service (so much so that the CMEE wrote a letter about them, also bemoaning their ability to condone copious amounts of lubricating and other fluids). They seem to have moved to the Hereford/Worcester to Paddington services - but remained on some Midlands freight workings and also Worcester based parcels workings.  
 

4 hours ago, SP Steve said:

 This excerpt appears in BR 31451/5 "British Railways Western Region  Route Availabilty - Diesel Locomotives" dated February 1971.

Very interesting note. Is it also possible there was an issue if they broke down off region? 
 

2 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

We can always hope!!! I only ever saw it the once and that was at STJ …. Easter 68 IIRC

I saw it in service in the West Country but also on the scrap line at Laira (with D802 IIRC). 
 

The body shape looks much better in the photos posted today. 

Edited October 13 by MidlandRed