New Heljan 00 Class 42 Warship

[The Stationmaster]

Hmm,  I'm definitely in the market for a Swindon 'Warship' (and might even be prepared to bend for one of the original three) but I have a number of reservations about this one so am going to be a mugwump until I can actually see one.

 

And yes - it was an air vent but I think that unlike the Thousands - where the cab was the equivalent of a well designed greenhouse on a hot day - the 'Warships' had some peculiar draughts around the cab in their early days and the vent might have contributed.  But it's a very long time since I first rode in the cab of one (not exactly legally but in a 'cabbing' which turned into a cab ride from WSM to Bristol fairly early in their lives - D809 according to my Ian Allan 'combined') and my second (wholly legitimate) trip on one was in 1967 - with no draughts in the cab on either occasion as far as I can remember.

[Roy Langridge]

5 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

But it's a very long time since I first rode in the cab of one (not exactly legally but in a 'cabbing' which turned into a cab ride from WSM to Bristol fairly early in their lives - D809 according to my Ian Allan 'combined') …

Shame that those days are gone, although I appreciate why. I used to regularly get a ride Reading to Guildford in a Class 47 working the inter-regionals. 
 

Roy

[Midland Mole]

I'm not particularly interested in most diesels, but I've always had a soft spot for some earlier types like the Warships and Hymeks. These look really nice and I hope they do well.

[piranha240]

I’ve never seen a version with that style front on the green ep model, I think it looks very nice.

[Pteremy]

 

Swindon, Easter Monday 1978, one of several photos taken in between showers. (Not the greatest composition I know, although there is more content on the negative.) Of personal significance in that it was the last time I bothered to record numbers rather than just enjoying travelling about. 

 

I don't blame Heljan for wanting to leverage their investment at 7mm. And I have quite a few Heljan models that I am perfectly happy with, especially in terms of running quality. But I was expecting Bachmann to revisit their Class 42 given the new tooled Class 43. There must be a possibility that is already in the pipeline. 

 

 

 

 

[Albie the plumber]

21 hours ago, adb968008 said:

First it was the Accurascale 89 thread now Heljan 42 thread.

This is a thread about Warships not battlefields.
 

This Cavalex class 60 feels quite toxic.. I got well beaten up when asking a question in that thread, to the point I didnt order any more as it just left a bitter taste.

 

Are Cavalex fans Millwall supporters too ?
 

 

In what seems to be an innocuous hobby , people really can be quite rude and very personal .

The basic principle that one should not say on the Internet what you wouldn't say to someone's face goes out of the window sometimes. 

Ultimately,  I don't get upset about it as all i am is a name at the top of a page .

It's not as if they know you , and they certainly wouldn't tell you what they think to your face in the real world. 

 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I found that the Mainline model (from the early 80's) was excellent. Altering the headcode boxes to the correct (slightly larger) size made a big difference - see photo below. Those of a certain age will see I've set the code as the northbound "Devonian".

The Warship was a very popular prototype with manufacturers. As well as the many examples mentioned above, I think Rivorossi  (excuse spelling) made a stud-contact example - marketing it under the Hamo label as a 2-rail one.

[Halvarras]

3 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

 

Has anyone mentioned that the cab roofs on the first three were a slightly different shape? 

 

Indeed they were, as amply illustrated by @robertcwp's elevated view of D801 in near ex-works maroon livery - the 'shoulders' of the roof panels were carried through to the ends resulting in visible 'lumps' above the cabs from ground level, and Swindon must have decided to improve the appearance by filing them down.......sorry, I mean flattening them on D803 onwards (!)

 

2 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

I always liked this one purely as it was named after Thin Lizzy's lead guitarist!

 

Yup, and according to 'Book of the Warships' one of the Paxman service engineers who travelled with D830 during its first years was named David Coverdale, presumably NOT the same David Coverdale who was lead singer with Deep Purple and Whitesnake! AFAIK he's still lead singer of WS, and DP are also still going very strong with a new lead guitarist and a stonking new album released less than 3 months ago - I don't know whose survival I'm more astonished at tbh, Deep Purple or D1660/47076/47625/47749 'City of Truro' 😆!!

[JSpencer]

3 hours ago, Pteremy said:

 

Swindon, Easter Monday 1978, one of several photos taken in between showers. (Not the greatest composition I know, although there is more content on the negative.) Of personal significance in that it was the last time I bothered to record numbers rather than just enjoying travelling about. 

 

I don't blame Heljan for wanting to leverage their investment at 7mm. And I have quite a few Heljan models that I am perfectly happy with, especially in terms of running quality. But I was expecting Bachmann to revisit their Class 42 given the new tooled Class 43. There must be a possibility that is already in the pipeline. 

 

I am surprised that the photo is as late as 1978 given the maroon warship and green hymek (with no yellow front too).

Edited October 12 by JSpencer

[adb968008]

44 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

I am surprised that the photo is as late as 1978 given the maroon warship and green hymek (with no yellow front too).

They are all “preserved”.. most likely thats D818, D821, D1015 and D7029 though D1041/D1048 were around then too, before going to Horwich.

 

Flikr url / not mine

D1041/D1048 at Swindon in 1978.

 

A 8 other westerns lingered to 1979 in the scrap lines including D1028 /D1033 / D1058 /D1071.. these were originally saved by BR incase of issues with class 56’s and could have returned for Foster Yeoman. Stories suggest unions block any suggestion of a sale, so sets up the storyline for the 59/66.

 

Flickr URL / not mine

D1048 left to Grosmont in 1978. D1041 left in repainted Blue to Horwich in 1980 and joined D832 from Derby. The trio were supposed to goto Bury Transport Museum (which built the three lane castlecroft shed specifically for them). D1048 got chance to run at the NYMR ( and self destructed never to run again) and migrated from Horwich to Southport instead. So only D1041/D832 went to Bury… the spare lane later being taken by 34027 Taw Valley, and later 45337, until the ELR reopened and 1 lane was sequestered to act as a paint shop for coaches.

Swindon collected a few refugees..

 

D818 was repainted in 1981 and scrapped in Green in 1985 (repainted from Blue) and D1015 was in Ochre and left around 1985 too.

D5705 was another.

D5705 was a wreck, also left to (I think Buxton, Peak Rail) in 1985 also.

 

There were also some large Collett Tenders (ex Castles) which I think went to Didcot.

Its a pity the loss of D818 considering the sudden discovery of a bunch of brand new condition Maybach engines about a decade ago…

 

Apparently Swindon reconditioned many Maybachs for use as Emergency generators for various NHS hospital rebuilds.. they went to live in cosy heated buildings to be run up periodically for testing for 3 decades and went to scrap for a few hundred quid each, some with just a few hundred hours on the clock… fortunately they were saved… AIUI D7076 was upcoming a major repair and looking at a huge bill.. the sudden arrival of the PU ended that and saw it back in traffic within weeks… other PUs inc the two differing NBL rebuild projects, inc an ex class 43 PU.

I understand its very likely many more ex BR loco power units may still reside in NHS locations.

 

Why I’m on this, as a toddler this is what got me excited about the hobby ! This is my hobby beginings..My earliest memories, followed up by 40106 in 1979 going green.

Edited October 12 by adb968008

[Pteremy]

2 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

I am surprised that the photo is as late as 1978 given the maroon warship and green hymek (with no yellow front too).

 

I don't think I took a photo of the HSTs running past!

 

I cannot be certain without checking but I think that these were all in the process of being preserved, or already preserved, and assembled for a proper photo shoot. For a long time one of the Warships was visible in the sidings at Reading Riverside, whilst I saw the other a couple of years earlier at Derby. So the Warships were presumably back at Swindon for a reason.

[Pteremy]

Out of curiosity I have just read through the O gauge warship thread. (There are only 8 pages of it.) There is only one mention of the nose shape in the whole thread, by moderator Andy. But if you google for pictures then I have to say the front profile does look very flat - the windows, the rails beneath the windows, all the way down. 

[Nova Scotian]

Something I've observed is that complex/compound curves don't always scale. It's more obvious with tumblehome, particularly in OO due to the scale/gauge issue. Then getting the same reflection/shading from those curves, in a smaller scale, painted onto a different surface (metal vs plastic). This also seems exacerbated on prototypes where there was likely variation between examples.

 

[Halvarras]

On 11/10/2024 at 17:09, adb968008 said:

 

 

 

(url link)

 

note how the nose to side window edge join doesnt seamless flow on the EP, maybe rubbing down this edge a bit might help ?.. it flows into the bottom window frame on the loco, but it flows up the corner join towards the top on the EP.

 

I think Heljan has attempted to create a neat window frame for the cab side window by running the front-to-cabside seam line down the middle of the corner pillar - however looking at this EP if that curved seam line remains visible on the final tooling, locos with full yellow ends could look rather untidy here. The Mainline/Bachmann tooling ran this seam in alignment with the leading edge of the cab side window, which led to slightly awkward tooling around the cab side window lower corner but meant that full yellow ends followed this seam line all the way down, visually hiding it. There's no way a full yellow end is going to disguise a seam line deviating from a straight line like this - quite the opposite I would think! However, perhaps Heljan accepts that locos without full yellow ends wouldn't have this advantage anyway so what does it matter - and as always, I'm bearing in mind this is still only an EP so the finished item will be improved in this regard......

[Albie the plumber]

32 minutes ago, Halvarras said:

 

I think Heljan has attempted to create a neat window frame for the cab side window by running the front-to-cabside seam line down the middle of the corner pillar - however looking at this EP if that curved seam line remains visible on the final tooling, locos with full yellow ends could look rather untidy here. The Mainline/Bachmann tooling ran this seam in alignment with the leading edge of the cab side window, which led to slightly awkward tooling around the cab side window lower corner but meant that full yellow ends followed this seam line all the way down, visually hiding it. There's no way a full yellow end is going to disguise a seam line deviating from a straight line like this - quite the opposite I would think! However, perhaps Heljan accepts that locos without full yellow ends wouldn't have this advantage anyway so what does it matter - and as always, I'm bearing in mind this is still only an EP so the finished item will be improved in this regard......

Certainly hope its an EP but we have been here before with Heljan on body shape issues .

There does seem to be a disconnect between Heljan and the general consensus of the modelling community regarding accuracy 

of an upcoming model . One wonders if they ever read what people here say or think.

This is not rivet counter territory here , unlike what the Bachmann v Accurascale class 31 debate has become - both those models 

are commendably close to the real thing , yet much debate goes on about barely noticeable cab shape issues . 

The cab shape issue on this model is rather more fundamental and is worthy of debate .

I really hope they do 'tweak' the nose shape as it does look rather bulbous , to me at least .

[melmoth]

6 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

I found that the Mainline model (from the early 80's) was excellent. Altering the headcode boxes to the correct (slightly larger) size made a big difference - see photo below. Those of a certain age will see I've set the code as the northbound "Devonian".

The Warship was a very popular prototype with manufacturers. As well as the many examples mentioned above, I think Rivorossi  (excuse spelling) made a stud-contact example - marketing it under the Hamo label as a 2-rail one.

 

I might be wrong about this, but I thought Hamo was Marklin's 2-rail brand back in the day?

[Peter Kazmierczak]

28 minutes ago, melmoth said:

 

I might be wrong about this, but I thought Hamo was Marklin's 2-rail brand back in the day?

 Think you're right;  got me manufacturers mixed-up. Yep, think it was Marklin who made the Warship, not Rivarossi

[jjb1970]

Fleischmann made a Warship many years ago, can't remember whether it was NBL or Swindon version.  In its day it wasn't bad.

[Halvarras]

52 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

Fleischmann made a Warship many years ago, can't remember whether it was NBL or Swindon version.  In its day it wasn't bad.

 

Yes, it was rather good but alas in HO. Like Mainline they must have used 818 'Glory' at Swindon Works for research as it too had 818's unique boiler roof panel (I put a topic together entitled '818 'Glory' - Misfit with a Legacy' but sadly the images were lost in 'the event' and I didn't retain them to reinstate). Only two versions were ever made, 818 'Glory' in final blue livery as surveyed, and D821 'Greyhound' in plain green livery without yellow panels. 

 

I do find it rather odd that, although Bachmann's first 'centre-drive' Warship releases included D832 'Onslaught', neither Bachmann nor Mainline before them - or Lima for that matter - ever produced a model of D821 'Greyhound', leaving the Fleischmann HO model as the only one to date. This is even more peculiar when considering that the tooling was correct for D821 yet Bachmann produced D800/1/4/6/8/9/12/67/70 which were all wrong!! These days models of preserved locomotives are popular, with manufacturers even prepared to indulge in bespoke tooling, e.g. Class 40 D213 with working headlamps. Will Heljan finally plug this gap and model the first mainline diesel loco preserved by an individual? I'd put money on it 😉!

 

5 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

 Think you're right;  got me manufacturers mixed-up. Yep, think it was Marklin who made the Warship, not Rivarossi

 

I recall seeing Marklin Warships on sale in a shop in Falmouth in the mid-late 1960s - IIRC one of them was D830 'Majestic'.

[pete_mcfarlane]

IIRC the Marklin Warship was too wide, being a new upper body on their existing V200 chassis. V200s being a foot wider than a Warship.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Think the Marklin/Hamo one had rectangular buffer heads - very continental...

Trix were first off the blocks with their 3.8mm model. Still got one somewhere; weighs a ton with its diecast body. Sam's Trains (other YouTubers available) would love the weight.

 

[Pteremy]

13 hours ago, Albie the plumber said:

There does seem to be a disconnect between Heljan and the general consensus of the modelling community regarding accuracy 

of an upcoming model . One wonders if they ever read what people here say or think.

 

Given the Rails of Sheffield dimension perhaps they could exert the corrective pressure that the modelling community seems unable to do. 

[Phil Bullock]

On 11/10/2024 at 15:14, Roy Langridge said:

I am reserving judgement, but still stick to my wait to get to hold something from Heljan before committing stance. 
 

As I have commented before, Heljan have produced some cracking models, and some naff ones. The 104, as you say, looks great. 
 

With some models issues have just leapt out at me, on this they don’t, but I am no Warship expert. I am sure the likes of @Phil Bullock will have an opinion worth listening to. 
 

Roy

Thanks Roy. I am afraid have deliberately not responded as I suspected we would get in to quagmire territory!!! 
 

I certainly do want a couple of Swindon warships … Albion and Hercules will do nicely… but will wait and see what transpires. Initial fears for me are around loco specific details such as the NBL pattern fan grilles on D832 but then there is always a recourse to doing some modelling if needed. 
 

Phil

[Opelsi]

7 hours ago, Halvarras said:

.......................Only two versions were ever made, 818 'Glory' in final blue livery as surveyed, and D821 'Greyhound' in plain green livery without yellow panels. 

 

I do find it rather odd that, although Bachmann's first 'centre-drive' Warship releases included D832 'Onslaught', neither Bachmann nor Mainline before them - or Lima for that matter - ever produced a model of D821 'Greyhound', leaving the Fleischmann HO model as the only one to date. This is even more peculiar when considering that the tooling was correct for D821 yet Bachmann produced D800/1/4/6/8/9/12/67/70 which were all wrong!! These days models of preserved locomotives are popular, with manufacturers even prepared to indulge in bespoke tooling, e.g. Class 40 D213 with working headlamps. Will Heljan finally plug this gap and model the first mainline diesel loco preserved by an individual? I'd put money on it 😉!

 

 

The funny thing is when I first saw the ad on the Rails website I am sure I saw 'Greyhound' listed. 4241 definitely now showing as 'Onslaught' though.

 

Then I looked on the Kernow website and see that they have 4241 as 'Greyhound' by title and in the description. Their accompanying picture however shows 'Onslaught' .

 

What is the betting that there has been a mix up somewhere and that there is a special edition of 'Greyhound' in the pipeline but not yet announced!?!?

 

Well that is my guess and I hope I am right as I will be putting my name down for one if so!

 

[Phil Bullock]

On 11/10/2024 at 18:18, wombatofludham said:

I know ugger ball about the Warships other than I think the 42s were Swindon built and the 43s North British, plus bizarrely some Class 43s did have a spell at Bescot in 1967-8 and even got to Stoke on Trent on occasions, but do any Western fans know if any of the 42s worked the then freight only line from Leamington to Coventry and on to Bescot in 1968?  I know the 43s were rotated to Bescot specifically for inter-regional freight to and from the Western so could have used the link but I wonder if anyone has any records of the 42s doing likewise?

Otherwise I suppose Rule 1 could be invoked, but it is interesting that Heljan are doing the 42 as I would have thought Bachmann might be working on one after the relative success of the 43.

I could be tempted either way.

It’s hard to find concrete evidence but there’s a pretty robust suggestion that the LMR didn’t like the Swindon warships under their OHLE due to the position of their exhausts on the centre line and therefore directly under the wire. They did of course get up to Crewe via Shrewsbury and filled in for absent Westerns on Padd-Birkenheads early on in their careers but haven’t seen evidence of them elsewhere in the West Midlands under OHLE. They were rare but not totally unknown at Worcester but no OHLE there… yet!