War Dept Engines in the UK?

[MyRule1]

I have just read references in the RCTS Railway Observer that a number of ROD GWR 0-6-0's were hauled through Ipswich in November 1939 en-route to the continent via Harwich. numbers 109-118 were recorded. One train was hauled by a B-17 and the other by a J-19.

[D7666]

Don't ask me now how I did this, I was surfing from site to site, and eBay believe it or not caused me to go from there to Paxman diesel engines to check on something, etc, and after a few links more came across this that I had nor seen before - the Southern Railway train ferries (Twickenham / Hampton / Shepperton) in war use I knew of but - to me - most interesting , 2 images in this page

 

https://www.tynebuiltships.co.uk/T-Ships/HamptonGantry.html

 

showing a US Whitcomb diesel being handled.

 

Further surfing even identifies the loco - as it is the same image -

https://army-whitcombs.info/s/aw/item/29

 

 

And then :

 

https://army-whitcombs.info/s/aw/item/35

 

presumably "somewhere in South Wales" that further surfing alleges to be Ebbw Junction _ although at least one US commentator seems to think that GWR loco is a Pannier d'uh.

 

My Question for this thread - one or two hints in other pages suggests some of these may have operated in GB, but, apart from any possible testing and maintenance while stored here, and movement to / from sea ports, is this actually true and supported by verifiable evidence rather than conjecture and myth and legend - the ones through Ebbw Junction were 7961 to 7979 and 8120 to 8129, commissioned, tested and stored before shipping to France after D Day.

 

but see as at least one was not :

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d7NcYoknTdBIAhbdokhCQBPqy_klY2_r-zv9vYgE1Ls/edit?usp=sharing

 

 

 

Edited 22 hours ago by D7666

[Wickham Green too]

At least two Whitcombs ( similar but earlier ) were at Longmoor 'til the late fifties - they certainly count as having operated in GB..

[The Stationmaster]

The Newport photo is definitely not Ebbw jcn.   I'm fairly certain that it is the stop blocks end of Maesglas Sidings in view of the advertising hoardings no doubt by a road passing under the railway (which fits Maesgals Sdgs exactly) plus the various other lines visible in the background etc.  

 

The background and topography, let alone the nature of the place where the Whitcombs are stabled rule out Ebbw Jcn

 

Signed past Asst Area Manager, Newport Maesglas (whose office really was at Ebbw Jcn!!)

[woodenhead]

How about Mendalgief siding and Monmouth sidings.

 

Zooming in there appear to be tracks on multiple levels, more sidings in the background and running lines in several directions.

 

So it could be somewhere in that whole set of sidings.

[Tom Burnham]

Is the GW loco a 280T?  Asking for a friend...  And the tank wagons in the foreground look like typical US ones of the period.  Whole lot of Stephenson Clarke wagons in the GW train, even if PO wagons were supposed to be pooled then.

Edited 13 hours ago by Tom Burnham

[The Stationmaster]

31 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

How about Mendalgief siding and Monmouth sidings.

 

Zooming in there appear to be tracks on multiple levels, more sidings in the background and running lines in several directions.

 

So it could be somewhere in that whole set of sidings.

No - those two lots of sidings were basically through sidings and not on a bank with that background view plus they don't fit with the running lines in the same way as the photo nor were there any road underbridges in their vicinity unlike Maesgas Sidings (which were also single ended).

 

The engine is indeed a 42XX and they are standard USATC tank cars

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Tom Burnham said:

... Whole lot of Stephenson Clarke wagons in the GW train, even if PO wagons were supposed to be pooled then.

21T wagons tended to stay on the flows that 20/21T wagons had been on pre-war - and Stephenson Clarke had a lot of them ...... possibly a few different 'owners' mixed in at the far end of this train.

[woodenhead]

56 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

No - those two lots of sidings were basically through sidings and not on a bank with that background view plus they don't fit with the running lines in the same way as the photo nor were there any road underbridges in their vicinity unlike Maesgas Sidings (which were also single ended).

 

The engine is indeed a 42XX and they are standard USATC tank cars

Must admit, the single ended sidings did have me wondering, but I couldn't think of anywhere else within Newport that had that much track.

 

But the Eastern Valleys sidings which was in between the Monmouth and Mendalgief fans did come in at a lower level off the SWML so it may give the impression of the Monmouth in the background being on a higher level.

[woodenhead]

I might have the location.

 

There were some sidings just after Park Junction and before the line crossed the SWML

 

The sidings ended where there was a main road overbridge, which would attract advertising hoardings such as is seen in the image

 

 

It's Cardiff Road, the B4237, looks like this now:

 

[D7666]

7 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

At least two Whitcombs ( similar but earlier ) were at Longmoor 'til the late fifties - they certainly count as having operated in GB..

Indeed.

 

I was not clear.

 

I meant working on main line running lines or in main line yards, doing useful work i.e. excluding any care and maintenance and test runs and or movements to ports for deployment.

 

0bviously I am aware of the loading gauge difference, but that neither absolutely blocks out such use nor relaxing conditions at potential locations under war emergency.

 

Having said that, I am sceptical there were any such workings - it just niggles that there are posts in a couple of past web debates that comment they did but all are unsubstantiated. Methinks it is chinese whispers based on speculation.

 

Part of the reason I am interested in this is that the Whitcombs were one of the very few 'bigger' diesel locos (as opposed to small 040/060) to have made it into GB, for any reason, before main line dieselisation started (post war of course). I have read and studied and re-read just about every book and paper and article and comment, be it informed or wibble, about how BTC and BR and industry came to develop and select the types they did, along with all the arguments about imports, and dollars, and currency, and coal, and oil, and labour shortages, and on and on and on,  and all of GM/EMD and GE and Alco and even Baldwin somewhere get mentioned in passing, there is not one single reference to Whitcomb - a type that was here - anywhere, no mention at all, to any of LMSR or GWR or SR or lner or later BR or BTC or anyone else interested in or actually trialling a WHitcomb on anything. Appreciate under the clouds of war such things were unlikely, and that post war the locos were surplus, and not in GB, but the very fact they were surplus hence cheap to hire or buy is a reason TO do it not not do it.

 

There may well be a blocking point to why they were not even trialled, but if so, there appears to be no authoritative contemporary record on the matter, unless there is something buried in Kew of course.  I, we, all of us, can come up with all sorts of theory why not, but that is all speculative 75/80 years after the event.

 

PS

 

I am aware Whitcomb supplied more than one type to the overall war effort; here in this thread I am refering to the BoBo or BB (or if you must 4w4w or 0-4-4-0) model of the type stored in quantity in South Wales i.e. the basic "65 ton" model [that weighed a lot more than 65] and without the higher cabs some examples received.

Edited 7 hours ago by D7666

[D7666]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The Newport photo is definitely not Ebbw jcn.   I'm fairly certain that it is the stop blocks end of Maesglas Sidings in view of the advertising hoardings no doubt by a road passing under the railway (which fits Maesgals Sdgs exactly) plus the various other lines visible in the background etc.  

 

The background and topography, let alone the nature of the place where the Whitcombs are stabled rule out Ebbw Jcn

 

Signed past Asst Area Manager, Newport Maesglas (whose office really was at Ebbw Jcn!!)

I am sure you are right.

 

I merely read the caption and repeated.

 

In hindsight i suppose of one of our cousins from the former trans Atlantic colony can't tell the difference between a Prairie/2-8-0T and a Pannier then distinguishing between an Ebbw and a Maesglas might be troublesome for them.

[D7666]

PS

question

 

the LOngmoor two -

71232 Tobruk 1232/1942/3

71233 Algiers 1233/1942/3

were not of the USTAC batch per Ebbw Junction and so, butwere of the UK WD order, and of the high cab type out of gauge even for most continental lines.