War Dept Engines in the UK?

[BillB]

Hi I was looking at the Oxford Rail Dean Goods WD No.101. I believe from web sources that this engine was sent to France in 1940 and never returned, but it prompted me to wonder if WD engines were used in the UK, e.g. at Ministry of Supply depots, Navy dockyards, or similar?

 

Also whether such engines would be grimy, or if the Sergeant Major would have his chaps buff them up, out of pride or as punishment duty!

 

Thanks,

Bill.

[Cwmtwrch]

39 minutes ago, BillB said:

but it prompted me to wonder if WD engines were used in the UK, e.g. at Ministry of Supply depots, Navy dockyards, or similar?

It depends on the type of engine. Those requisitioned in 1939/40 either went to France or north Africa and never came back (or not until after the war in a few cases) or were returned to their owners in view of the changed and/or increased freight traffic flows as a result of wartime conditions. WD Stanier 8Fs went overseas (to the Middle East mostly) as produced, but WD 2-8-0s and 2-10-0s saw considerable UK main line use before going to France in groups after D-Day, as did US Army S150s. The 0-6-0 tank engines, some of which later became BR's J94 and USA classes, worked in the UK in considerable numbers, mostly in ports and wartime installations, but the USA tanks also worked extensively in Europe after D-Day, being US Army property.

 

This is all to the best of my limited knowledge, so open to correction.

 

[Mol_PMB]

As noted above, some locos worked in the UK prior to going abroad, and some never even went abroad. 

In the UK in wartime the tank engines worked at military and civilian facilities (the latter including colleries and docks). 

Several of the USA tanks worked in Manchester Docks for the MSC, and were then overhauled before being sent to France. One didn't go to France but was stored for a while and was then trialled by the Southern, the forerunner of their fleet of USA tanks.

[LMS2968]

28 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

It depends on the type of engine. Those requisitioned in 1939/40 either went to France or north Africa and never came back (or not until after the war in a few cases) or were returned to their owners in view of the changed and/or increased freight traffic flows as a result of wartime conditions. WD Stanier 8Fs went overseas (to the Middle East mostly) as produced, but WD 2-8-0s and 2-10-0s saw considerable UK main line use before going to France in groups after D-Day, as did US Army S150s. The 0-6-0 tank engines, some of which later became BR's J94 and USA classes, worked in the UK in considerable numbers, mostly in ports and wartime installations, but the USA tanks also worked extensively in Europe after D-Day, being US Army property.

 

This is all to the best of my limited knowledge, so open to correction.

 

The first Stanier 8Fs built for service in France also saw BR use after France fell and before being sent to the MIddle East, so 1940-41. Some returned later for LMS  / BR service. Five more came back in 1952 simply for overhaul then return to the Middle East, but the changing political situation meant they stayed here going to the Longmoor Military Raiiway initially. Three, 500 501 and 512 entered BR service at Polmadie, the other two, 508 and 511, stayed with the army and served at Cairnryan depot.

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

The first Stanier 8Fs built for service in France also saw BR use after France fell and before being sent to the MIddle East, so 1940-41. Some returned later for LMS  / BR service. Five more came back in 1952 simply for overhaul then return to the Middle East, but the changing political situation meant they stayed here going to the Longmoor Military Raiiway initially. Three, 500 501 and 512 entered BR service at Polmadie, the other two, 508 and 511, stayed with the army and served at Cairnryan depot.

Some were sunk at sea. During a storm in the Irish Sea, I believe and nothing to do with enemy action. Despatched overboard to save the ship - a justifiable reason, given the circumstances.

[Matt37268]

4 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Some were sunk at sea. During a storm in the Irish Sea, I believe and nothing to do with enemy action. Despatched overboard to save the ship - a justifiable reason, given the circumstances.

I think that may have been in the Bristol Channel. 

[adb968008]

Heres an interesting film…

 

 

Its shows the construction of 8F WD 356 at NBL in spring 1941.

(see number stamped on the pins at 7.46, and chalked on the front).

counter to some websites, it was steamed before shipping (as its insteam in the film) but given the short time between construction and shipping its unlikely to have been used, but it made its way from Glasgow to Hull.

Note also its right hand drive from new (see regulator and reverser).

 

Sadly its career was very short as WD 356 was lost on 23rd May 1941 whilst being shipped to Turkey, on the Berhala, off the coast of Sierra Leone.

 

There are other anomolies, the Berhala is listed as being lost on convoy OB-318.. but this convoy was Liverpool to New York, where as Berhala was Hull to Mid East via Africa, and lost off Sierra Leone.. far from the Iceland attacks of the New York bound convoy.

 

U38 under Heinrich Liebe is credited with sinking Berhala, (and 35 other ships off Sierra Leone), he died in 1997 in Eisenach, which itself is a well reknown town for steam locomotive preservation.

 

This convoy is famous as the convoy that captured U-110, and more importantly its Enigma machine and codebook. So important was this capture that the U boat was purposely sunk and the crew sent onto Canada for internment, rather than taking both back to the UK. This was the basis of the storyline for the film U-571… 

So the 8f was lost but the convoy broke the Enigma code, so it saved a lot of s160’s no doubt.

 

Edited October 2 by adb968008

[phil_sutters]

A number of USA 0-6-0Ts worked around Highbridge, with one allocated to the Wharf. There was a large fuel dump near the S&DJR station, with huge stacks of jerry cans full of petrol or gasoline as the yanks would have called it. Chris Handley records some of them as WD1255, 1285,1394 & 1587, as well as Sentinel WD 70232 and a WD Ruston.

[Cwmtwrch]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

This convoy is famous as the convoy that captured U-110, and more importantly its Enigma machine and codebook. So important was this capture that the U boat was purposely sunk and the crew sent onto Canada for internment, rather than taking both back to the UK. This was the basis of the storyline for the film U-571… 

U110 was indeed captured and the source of important intelligence, but she later sank whilst being towed. I haven't seen the film, but I believe that the main inspiration for the film 'U571' was the capture of U570; the crew had jettisoned her enigma machine and confidential papers before capture but she was salvaged and subject to tests which provided much information on U-boat construction and capabilities. She was eventually commissioned into the Royal Navy as HMS Graph, carrying out three war patrols before being used as a training submarine. Possibly the film conflated the two incidents.

[LMS2968]

11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Heres an interesting film…

 

 

Its shows the construction of 8F WD 356 at NBL in spring 1941.

(see number stamped on the pins at 7.46, and chalked on the front).

counter to some websites, it was steamed before shipping (as its insteam in the film) but given the short time between construction and shipping its unlikely to have been used, but it made its way from Glasgow to Hull.

Note also its right hand drive from new (see regulator and reverser).

 

Sadly its career was very short as WD 356 was lost on 23rd May 1941 whilst being shipped to Turkey, on the Berhala, off the coast of Sierra Leone.

 

There are other anomolies, the Berhala is listed as being lost on convoy OB-318.. but this convoy was Liverpool to New York, where as Berhala was Hull to Mid East via Africa, and lost off Sierra Leone.. far from the Iceland attacks of the New York bound convoy.

 

U38 under Heinrich Liebe is credited with sinking Berhala, (and 35 other ships off Sierra Leone), he died in 1997 in Eisenach, which itself is a well reknown town for steam locomotive preservation.

 

This convoy is famous as the convoy that captured U-110, and more importantly its Enigma machine and codebook. So important was this capture that the U boat was purposely sunk and the crew sent onto Canada for internment, rather than taking both back to the UK. This was the basis of the storyline for the film U-571… 

So the 8f was lost but the convoy broke the Enigma code, so it saved a lot of s160’s no doubt.

 

I’m having a few problems with this film, although I certainly enjoyed watching it, in particular with the engine numbered WD 356. The film was made for propaganda purposes and doesn’t and was never intended to provide historic accuracy: clips of other engines under construction are interspersed with those of the 8F. The boilers shown under construction are not Stanier 3C boilers, nor is the crosshead shown at 6.21 anything to do with an 8F.

 

The Turkish 8Fs were to replace an order to North British Loco which was vetoed by the war when concentration on the 8Fs was implemented and a batch of twenty-two were built with right hand drive to suit Turkish conditions. These were WD 338-359 Built October 1940 to March 1941. Seven were lost at sea. Although I don’t have the numbers. Their numbers followed on from the first NBL batch built for service in France, 300-337, which never went there and ultimately served in the Middle East.

 

228 8Fs were sent abroad in just fifteen months but of these but twenty-three failed to arrive. Four engines (but not tenders) which were deck cargo were jettisoned in bad weather from SS Pentridge Hall, apparently in the Irish Sea, the ship then putting into Glasgow. The remaining 8Fs were extracted from the holds and needed repair at NBL to the damage they had sustained. They did not then go to the Middle East but went to the LMS, still as WD engines and in WD livery before becoming LMS 8264-85 in 1943.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, LMS2968 said:

 

 

The Turkish 8Fs were to replace an order to North British Loco which was vetoed by the war when concentration on the 8Fs was implemented and a batch of twenty-two were built with right hand drive to suit Turkish conditions. These were WD 338-359 Built October 1940 to March 1941. Seven were lost at sea. Although I don’t have the numbers. Their numbers followed on from the first NBL batch built for service in France, 300-337, which never went there and ultimately served in the Middle East.

 

WD 343/4/5 lost on the Jessmore

WD 338/344/5/6 lost on Berhala

 

WD 522/3/4 were replacements sent in 1941

WD 552/556 were 1943 replacements to get the TCDD total to 20.

Heres TCDD 45161 (WD 522 / NBL 24670) preserved in turkey taken this summer..

 

 

 

 

45161 has had a serious repair at somepoint, the whole front frame has been cut off and rewelded back on…

 

 

and has a new buffer beam..

 

the loco still has lamp irons on the tender, and on the front frame, presumably the Turkish had no idea what these were for as they installed their own electric lamps. There is no water scoop under the tender, but it is patched over, so presumably originally built with it and later removed. 

 

The webbing arches of this pony wheel look unusual to me also..

reminds me of the unusual 8f 48169 which had a non standard set of wheels.

 

The TCDD order was originally fulfilled post war and became the TCDD 56080 class… would you believe this Germanic looking beast was built in Manchester (Vulcan Foundry) in 1948..

 

 

 

Considering the difference between the 8f and the 56080 its no wonder the Turkish felt short changed and both exploited and accepted Germanys BR 52 Kreigslok taking advantage of the situation.

 

of course many other 8fs were lost at sea enroute to Iran, and 2 further 8fs enroute to Egypt sit on the seabed either side of the Thistlegorm.

 

 

 

Edited October 3 by adb968008

[rodent279]

I believe the 56080 class was built to a pre-war Henschel design.

[adb968008]

49 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

I believe the 56080 class was built to a pre-war Henschel design.

Correct, the Germans were unable to fulfill the order in the Turkish required timescale.

 

AIUI the BR 58 (G12) was the base design.

 

Indeed the final part of the Henshel order also failed to be delivered also, with 17 ending up in Bulgaria as the war started. These became BDZ class 12, BDZ later bought some s/h BR 58’s from Germany post war.

 

Over 50 BR 52’s made it to Turkey instead… so a shortage of 37 locos netted Turkey with over 70 locos instead… they knew how to play the game…they played the Americans too.

Edited October 3 by adb968008

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

There is no water scoop under the tender, but it is patched over, so presumably originally built with it and later removed. 

 

 

Why would any of the WDs have needed scoops as built?  They were only designed for use overseas even though some were used in UK before D Day to overcome domestic shortages.  I can't imagine invading Allied troops installing water troughs on foreign metals.

[LMS2968]

I don't think those 8Fs built for the WD were fitted with scoops. The ex-WD tender fitted to the preserved example 8233/8773 never had one. But some of those sent over there were built pre-war for the LMS and requisitioned and they would have had scoops. The WDs didn't have them either.

[Turbo_Tim]

On 02/10/2024 at 11:00, BillB said:

Hi I was looking at the Oxford Rail Dean Goods WD No.101. I believe from web sources that this engine was sent to France in 1940 and never returned, but it prompted me to wonder if WD engines were used in the UK, e.g. at Ministry of Supply depots, Navy dockyards, or similar?

In Kent there seems to have been a fairly constant presence of WD locomotives throughout WW2. The Elham Valley Line was partly taken over by the army, operating the section from Canterbury to Lyminge. It was home to the Boche Buster rail mounted gun, which was moved by an ex LMS Diesel shunter. War Department Dean Goods locomotives also worked the line, including a freight service that ran in lieu of the normal Southern Railway service(s). Source: The Elham Valley Railway by Brian Hart 2015.

 

On the East Kent Railway there were more WD guns and Dean Goods locomotives. Here the WD workings coexisted with the East Kent Railway. The same book also suggests the Deans Goods were also associated with further rail mounted guns on the Southern Railway mainlines at Adisham, Grove Ferry and Canterbury East (although I doubt there would have been any big guns in Canterbury as apparently they had a habit of causing damage to nearby buildings when fired).  Source: The East Kent Railway Volume 1: The History of the Indendent Railway by M. Lawson FInch and S.R. Garrett 2003.

 

The guns at St Margarets were moved by 4 for ex LMS Diesel Shunters. Further afield the Shropshire and Montgomeryshire Railway was taken over at the start of the war, but apparently remained a WD railway until closure in 1960, again operated by WD locomotives.

[The Stationmaster]

47 minutes ago, Turbo_Tim said:

In Kent there seems to have been a fairly constant presence of WD locomotives throughout WW2. The Elham Valley Line was partly taken over by the army, operating the section from Canterbury to Lyminge. It was home to the Boche Buster rail mounted gun, which was moved by an ex LMS Diesel shunter. War Department Dean Goods locomotives also worked the line, including a freight service that ran in lieu of the normal Southern Railway service(s). Source: The Elham Valley Railway by Brian Hart 2015.

 

On the East Kent Railway there were more WD guns and Dean Goods locomotives. Here the WD workings coexisted with the East Kent Railway. The same book also suggests the Deans Goods were also associated with further rail mounted guns on the Southern Railway mainlines at Adisham, Grove Ferry and Canterbury East (although I doubt there would have been any big guns in Canterbury as apparently they had a habit of causing damage to nearby buildings when fired).  Source: The East Kent Railway Volume 1: The History of the Indendent Railway by M. Lawson FInch and S.R. Garrett 2003.

 

The guns at St Margarets were moved by 4 for ex LMS Diesel Shunters. Further afield the Shropshire and Montgomeryshire Railway was taken over at the start of the war, but apparently remained a WD railway until closure in 1960, again operated by WD locomotives.

I do know that at least one rail mounted gun was worked into Kent (from the Plymouth area - presumably originating from Devonport) by a Dean Goods as the man who fired the engine was decades later one of my Drivers who retired in the early 1980s.  He and his Driver - also ex-mainline railway but I don't know where from - worked the gun throughout from Plymouth to Kent and they and their engine then remained with it for a period afterwards although I don't know how long.

[Wickham Green too]

22 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I do know that at least one rail mounted gun was worked into Kent (from the Plymouth area - presumably originating from Devonport) by a Dean Goods ...

Would be interesting to know what route was taken ( reversing to cross the Brighton Line somewhere - unless they ventured into London ) - they'd have needed to go on shed for coal once or thrice !

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Would be interesting to know what route was taken ( reversing to cross the Brighton Line somewhere - unless they ventured into London ) - they'd have needed to go on shed for coal once or thrice !

Alas he's long dead although we kept in touch by Christmas cards after he'd retired.  I thgink they would hav e magaed with one intermediate coaling but definitely lots of water stops!

[TheQ]

There's a WW2 photo of an S160 in the military depot at Ludgershall on Salisbury plain. Troops / tanks and much military machinery were loaded and unloaded there.

 

Edited Sunday at 12:31 by TheQ

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The story of the 8F shipments and re-erection at Sivas, as experienced by Ron Jarvis, is very well covered in a biography: 'Ron Jarvis From Midland Compound to the HST', Author, J.E. Chacksfield, Pub. The Oakwood Press. 

 

Much else of interest within, in addition to the class of adventure your government might choose for you at need, when the chips are down...

[KeithMacdonald]

On 02/10/2024 at 11:00, BillB said:

it prompted me to wonder if WD engines were used in the UK

 

The WD ROD 2-8-0s were, after they returned to the UK
 

Quote

 

Post-war use in Great Britain

After the war British railway companies had a backlog of locomotives that required overhaul and repair: 498 ROD 2-8-0s were loaned to nine railway companies between 1919 and 1921 to cover goods traffic while the backlog was cleared. The ROD 2-8-0s were then placed into storage around the country until they were disposed of.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROD_2-8-0

[Tom Burnham]

On 19/10/2024 at 10:40, Turbo_Tim said:

In Kent there seems to have been a fairly constant presence of WD locomotives throughout WW2. The Elham Valley Line was partly taken over by the army, operating the section from Canterbury to Lyminge. It was home to the Boche Buster rail mounted gun, which was moved by an ex LMS Diesel shunter. War Department Dean Goods locomotives also worked the line, including a freight service that ran in lieu of the normal Southern Railway service(s). Source: The Elham Valley Railway by Brian Hart 2015.

 

On the East Kent Railway there were more WD guns and Dean Goods locomotives. Here the WD workings coexisted with the East Kent Railway. The same book also suggests the Deans Goods were also associated with further rail mounted guns on the Southern Railway mainlines at Adisham, Grove Ferry and Canterbury East (although I doubt there would have been any big guns in Canterbury as apparently they had a habit of causing damage to nearby buildings when fired).  Source: The East Kent Railway Volume 1: The History of the Indendent Railway by M. Lawson FInch and S.R. Garrett 2003.

 

The guns at St Margarets were moved by 4 for ex LMS Diesel Shunters. Further afield the Shropshire and Montgomeryshire Railway was taken over at the start of the war, but apparently remained a WD railway until closure in 1960, again operated by WD locomotives.

There was also a rail mounted gun stationed at Wittersham Road on the K&ESR during WW2 with a Dean Goods to manoeuvre it. You can still see one of the concrete topped bunkers provided for ammunition storage.

But as far as I know the WD loco wasn't used for other traffic on the line - although as it was serviced at Rolvenden who knows what unofficial arrangement might have been made in the teeth of a motive power crisis!

[Wickham Green too]

5 minutes ago, Tom Burnham said:

... who knows what unofficial arrangement might have been made in the teeth of a motive power crisis!

Motive power crisis on the K&ESR ? ..... surely not !!?! 🙄

[Marshall5]

I used to have a copy of this book https://www.transportstore.com/Kallabishop-Pm-Locomotives-At-War-Army-Railway-Reminiscences-Of-The-Second-World-War-Book-11388-94.cfm

IIRC it included a lot of information on the loco hauled coastal guns and the Dean goods used by the WD.

Ray.