Loco Crew "Uniform" Colours

[Pecketts And Panniers]

I was doing some figure painting today (some Hornby X1400, if you're interested - the driver and fireman pair that come with some of the older Hornby locomotives) with an Aspiring Junior Modeller and every example we could find on the internet of steam loco crews had them wearing light blue clothing, so now ours are light blue too.

The AJM asked why they are always in blue - to which I had no answer! Furthermore, the Mother of AJM pointed out, probably quite correctly, that in the era we were modelling (1930s-ish) washing machines were almost unheard of and that all washing would have been done manually by the ladies of the household. MoAJM's view was, basically, that the colour was just stupid and a darker colour would be much more practical for not showing the dirt and that the men would be getting constantly nagged for getting their nice clean clothes all dirty again as soon as they got to work.

Can someone help me out here? I'm assuming that the many pictures and videos I see on the internet that show blue clothing for drivers and firemen are prototypical, but of course, those are themselves pictures and videos of models. However, am I and the AJM just perpetrating something that has no basis in reality? We've painted ours blue becuase everyone else does, but what if the next person comes along and now sees ours as well, paints theirs blue and the cycle continues?

I can see MoAJM's point - surely a very dark blue, or even black, would be much more sensible?

[Ray M]

My old fella was a driver at Holbeck.

Right through from War time steam to HST

and i cant ever remember him wearing light blue.

[burgundy]

I asked a similar question on the Brighton Circle discussion group, but in the context of when footplate "uniform" appeared. 

The answer was that indigo dyes became available in the 1890s and that companies started to issue clothing in the 1900s, with different companies being more or less generous in the level of provision. Clothing seems likely to have started off as dark blue denim.

Further discussion on this thread, suggested that washing consisted of soaking the overalls in a bucket of washing soda, which might have progressively bleached the colour.

Best wishes 

Eric 

[Lee-H]

If you are modelling an early 1960s ‘Blue’ Pullman you could opt for a white uniform!

[John Isherwood]

29 minutes ago, Lee-H said:

If you are modelling an early 1960s ‘Blue’ Pullman you could opt for a white uniform!

 

Ahh - the legendary 'ice-cream man'!

 

John Isherwood.

[Nick Holliday]

I suggest that you try to get hold of The Big Four in Colour, by David Jenkinson, perhaps through your library. “Real” colour photos, and the loco crews feature in many. Their clothing varies from a Navy Blue to a washed out light blue, with a surprising number wearing a bright blue tone, which looks quite new.
As a diversion, as @burgundy has pointed out, in early Victorian days it was common for the driver, at least, to sport an almost white fustian jacket, which must have needed lots of washing each day.

[Michael Hodgson]

Working on steam locos was dirty work, (especially Cleaners and Firemen) and "uniform" is a glorified way of saying they wore the equivalent of overalls or dungarees - dark blue denim type material.  Repeated washing could remove the dye and cause the blue to fade.  Accompanied by headgear in the form of a greasetop cap with the company name in it - or perhaps in hot weather and away from management eyes, a knotted hanky!  A few punctilious drivers made a point of keeping the loco as clean as possible so that they could wear a white shirt and tie.  This wasn't very practical for the run of the mill crews on mundane mineral trains through.  When not on the footplate they would be seen carrying a fair sized leather holdall containing their essentials from rulebooks/paperwork, tools to billy-can, stowed out of the way once on board.

 

Inspectors/managment when on a loco would usually be more smartly dressed.

[DCB]

If you want realism vary the shade of blue,   As said above the blue faded with washing but also got darker with coal dust and dirt.    I use BR loco blue as a baseline and add a speck of black or white to the palette .s required.  Most of my crews are Dapol lineside figures and some stand on the tender or have a fireman with a pricker deep in the firebox  as a fireman balancing on one leg and a driver doing a Freemasons Salute don't look too convincing.   Generally people doing nothing in particular look more realistic than those frozen in mid action.    It's the low tender locos where crew are prominent, GWR 28XX etc    Its a common fail for crew to be too high or low in a cab.  Some GW locos had surprisingly high cab floors

[Nick Holliday]

An interesting picture is one of the earliest colour railway photographs of a Lancashire & Yorkshire steam railmotor which was used on the cover of David Jenkinson's book on British Railcars. It can be seen here, I hope, https://herodmodels.com/Britihs-Railcars-1900-To-1950 

Although the colour is a bit washed out in their version of the scan, the variation of the blue shades amongst the four railwaymen is clear, ranging from a deep blue to a faded blue-grey, with one, who may be the driver, sporting quite a bright blue shade.  It should be noted that three of the four were wearing black trousers, and, as it was 1919, the compulsory cap.

[Pecketts And Panniers]

@Ray M @burgundy @Michael Hodgson @Nick Holliday Thanks all - most useful.

[duncan]

One point to consider, was it a mark of seniority to have either washed out pale overalls, or to have new dark ones ?

If the prewar navy is referenced, then working clothes were scrubbed till pale, dress were dark !

[JZ]

When I modelled the S&D, all my loco's were crewed. I used a variety of blues, from navy to a quite pale. rarely would I would I give a figure the same shade of jacket and trousers. Once painted, they were given a thin wash of grey.

[Nick Holliday]

Rather off topic, but I thought this contemporary illustration (I think) shows early Victorian railwaymen’s clothing. 
https://www.londonpicturearchive.org.uk/view-item?key=SXsiUCI6eyJ2YWx1ZSI6IlJhaWx3YXkgIiwib3BlcmF0b3IiOjEsImZ1enp5UHJlZml4TGVuZ3RoIjozLCJmdXp6eU1pblNpbWlsYXJpdHkiOjAuNzUsIm1heFN1Z2dlc3Rpb25zIjozLCJhbHdheXNTdWdnZXN0IjpmYWxzZX0sIkYiOiJleUowSWpwYk1WMTkifQ&pg=6&WINID=1729149247186#luhipiUhZoEAAAGSmVOdWA/25008

Hardly a uniform!

[robert17649]

On 23/09/2024 at 08:28, burgundy said:

I asked a similar question on the Brighton Circle discussion group, but in the context of when footplate "uniform" appeared. 

The answer was that indigo dyes became available in the 1890s and that companies started to issue clothing in the 1900s, with different companies being more or less generous in the level of provision. Clothing seems likely to have started off as dark blue denim.

Further discussion on this thread, suggested that washing consisted of soaking the overalls in a bucket of washing soda, which might have progressively bleached the colour.

Best wishes 

Eric 

Would have bleached the colour. Also indigo dyes were a bit on the fugitive side in the early days but light blue is I suspect a bit far. One thought is that painting crew uniforms light blue makes them a bit more visible to the viewer.

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, robert17649 said:

One thought is that painting crew uniforms light blue makes them a bit more visible to the viewer.

 

I don't think the hi-vis concept was even a consideration back in the day - crews were simply expected to keep out of the way of moving trains, and generally had the gumption to do so.  Even today we wander the streets looking out for traffic when we cross the road, and people often wear dark clothes without worrying about how easily they might be seen.  Clothing was just what you wore to keep yourself warm and to comply with expectations of decency.  Denim overalls were practical from the point of view of standing up better to wear and tear in an inherently dirty job.

[Pecketts And Panniers]

I took this in the sense of "make them more visible to the viewer of the model", rather than attempting to replicate the H&S requirements of the day.

[Tumut]

HelloAll, 1 / cotton drill is the material used for overalls, and dustcoats, currently with a choice of white (painters, and food industry) grey (workshops, industry) khaki /sand (building industry) dark blue (railways, ship building, industry), these all being generalisations. British type railways generally preferred dark blue, which faded to a light blue, and in some cases, even to a pale blue ( Omo in hot water in a washing machine !  Could shrink said item down 2+ sizes, do not ask how I know this.) Blue seems to be preferred by Government entities, and is generally reasonably good at hiding dirt, at least whilst it is dark blue !

2 / From photos (Main Line Lament, Colin Walker) seem to indicate that BR crews were issued with drill trousers and coats, and a grease top hat, if normally allocated to steam. DMU & EMU drivers/Motormen were issued a uniform type coat, and presumably, matching trousers. Jumpers, shirts, and ties (if desired) were generally not supplied to steam crews, though Motormen appear to be issued a full BR style Uniform, similar to Station Staff, so presumably they had to meet a dress standard, whereas steam crews were issued a protective work covering. Someone above mentioned denim, but that was basically an American issue, as denim (as in jeans) was really a mid sixties fashion choice not previously widely available outside of North America. (There was an American, who visited Australia in the 1990s to spruik the wearing of denim on commercial radio, part of his spiel was that denim should not be washed, the reaction of my Wife, and my Mum, is easily imagined ! )

3 / Australian loco men generally were issued with dark blue cotton drill workshop type overalls, with other clothing paid for by the employee, with the proviso that Red was prohibited (and Green frowned upon), this was to prevent a red jumper or shirt being mistaken for a Red flag ( and the General Appendix to the Rule Book, or the General Orders Book, clearly stated so). In the mid 1970s onwards, loco crews (with steam abolished) were then supplied with a complete uniform. From the late 1980s onwards, an Orange Reflective Stripe Safety vest became mandatory, and around 2000, the specification of the Orange was differently defined for each State, so as to visibly stand out against the rural background. (South Australia and Western Australia use a lighter, and brighter Safety Orange than Victoria and New South Wales, due to the former having a lot of red to bauxite coloured sand, unlike the later States which tend to have more yellow in the landscape) This was also true of the Red and Green hand signal Flags, for the same reason.

4 / On the basis of the above, I suggest a dark to a mid blue, in varying shades, with each crewman on the footplate wearing a different shade of blue, as being the most typical. Loco crews really only all looked alike when a full uniform was issued, and even these varied with age due to colour fade.

5 / On a tangent here, I am always intrigued by, especially preserved railway staff, wearing a bright red tie. I have read that this was intended for use as a red flag in cases of emergency, but bearing in mind the actual size of a neck tie, compared to a Red Flag, I would have thought a person wildly waving their arms about would most likely far more visible than fluttering red tie. As stated above, wearing Red on an Australian railway was generally a no no (Flagmen's Red Arm Band was specified in the Rule Book), and in my experience, staff who wore ties (that practice seemed to have rapidly disappeared in the 1970s) generally stuck to dark colours (black, dark blue, dark green, dark maroon) which looked neat, but not stand out prominently.  

regards to all, Tumut.

 

[Michael Hodgson]

13 minutes ago, Tumut said:

HelloAll, 1 / cotton drill is the material used for overalls, and dustcoats, currently with a choice of white (painters, and food industry) grey (workshops, industry) khaki /sand (building industry) dark blue (railways, ship building, industry), these all being generalisations.

 

....

 

 

5 / On a tangent here, I am always intrigued by, especially preserved railway staff, wearing a bright red tie. I have read that this was intended for use as a red flag in cases of emergency, but bearing in mind the actual size of a neck tie, compared to a Red Flag, I would have thought a person wildly waving their arms about would most likely far more visible than fluttering red tie.

 

 

 

It was common in factories that the general workforce all wore blue, but those working in stores wore brown overalls.  This was probably because only stores keepers were trusted to have access to supplies.

 

 

There was a pre-grouping railway (I forget which one) who designed uniform caps so that the inside was bright red specifically so that it could be used as an emergency danger signal.  I agree though that a vigorous hand signal would be more likely to attract attention.

 

Not every country saw red clothing as a problem though

https://media.gettyimages.com/id/460638322/photo/france-transport-rail-clothing-company.webp?s=2048x2048&w=gi&k=20&c=LkOYX3OG99S1PtJblFdIHFBoS3GfItM0zXlpIqHzcdM=

 

https://www.alamy.com/russian-railways-cap-image369857439.html

[robert17649]

9 hours ago, Pecketts And Panniers said:

I took this in the sense of "make them more visible to the viewer of the model", rather than attempting to replicate the H&S requirements of the day.

That’s wot I meant

[Nick C]

20 hours ago, Tumut said:

5 / On a tangent here, I am always intrigued by, especially preserved railway staff, wearing a bright red tie. I have read that this was intended for use as a red flag in cases of emergency, but bearing in mind the actual size of a neck tie, compared to a Red Flag, I would have thought a person wildly waving their arms about would most likely far more visible than fluttering red tie. As stated above, wearing Red on an Australian railway was generally a no no (Flagmen's Red Arm Band was specified in the Rule Book), and in my experience, staff who wore ties (that practice seemed to have rapidly disappeared in the 1970s) generally stuck to dark colours (black, dark blue, dark green, dark maroon) which looked neat, but not stand out prominently.  

regards to all, Tumut.

 

Southern Railway platform staff uniform included a red tie. Whether that was actually intended as a danger signal or if that's just an urban myth I don't know - giving the official danger handsignal accompanied by a long blast on a whistle would generally be far more effective.

Edited Friday at 10:45 by Nick C

[Welchester]

36 minutes ago, Nick C said:

Southern Railway platform staff uniform included a red tie. Whether that was actually intended as a danger signal or if that's just an urban myth I don't know - giving the official danger handsignal accompanied by a long blast on a whistle would generally be far more effective.

 

That's interesting. I always took it as a sign of political allegiance.