What happened at the Lynton & Barnstaple?

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

As a 'not remotely interested party', everything about this project has stop signs writ large all over it. A truly 'think big' idea would be to find some less encumbered attractive location and build it there. So it might be the Little and Black (Torrington) Railway (other locations are available).

 

Once folks get excited they forget the objective was never to fight battles (always expensive) but to win as cheaply as possible. Ample international examples of the first make the wiser choice very clear. 

But this is about restoring a much-loved past, not simply creating a NG line. To draw us all in, either as contributors, or paying punters, it needs to be on site and authentic, as far as possible. 

[Morello Cherry]

It is interesting that the S&D at Midsomer Norton they are very keen to work with people in Chilcompton including those who oppose it. The point though that they always emphasize is that supporters are the public face of the railway and that if when walking the trackbed you come across someone to remember that you are 'representing' the railway in the minds of locals and that making a good impression is critical. In short, don't behave like an arse when out and about.

[johnofwessex]

1 hour ago, Morello Cherry said:

It is interesting that the S&D at Midsomer Norton they are very keen to work with people in Chilcompton including those who oppose it. The point though that they always emphasize is that supporters are the public face of the railway and that if when walking the trackbed you come across someone to remember that you are 'representing' the railway in the minds of locals and that making a good impression is critical. In short, don't behave like an arse when out and about.

 

 

On Line ditto

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

But this is about restoring a much-loved past, not simply creating a NG line. To draw us all in, either as contributors, or paying punters, it needs to be on site and authentic, as far as possible. 

Exactly, unless @34theletterbetweenB&D means ‘another location on the old trackbed’. But unless they do what the initial Peak Rail setup and a couple of others have done (closing and moving from their current site to a new base) then it still has the issue of requiring multiple sites to be open. I was under the impression that the National Park authorities might not be keen on this aspect either, as in contrast to providing car-free access into the National Park (a bit like the Welsh Highland) having two unconnected sites might be seen to encourage people to drive to and between them in turn.

 

You could have a railway and museum of the L&B on some other piece of trackbed (old or newly constructed but not genuine original L&B) nearby (a bit like the Ashover setup being created at Peak Rail, and arguably the Llanberis and Bala Lake railways, which interpret the history of the internal slate quarry railways but are on other (Padarn or standard gauge) trackbeds, but that largely takes away the opportunity to interpret or preserve original structures like Woody Bay station, unless they are also expensively relocated. I’m not sure why the Ashover group did this but presumably there wasn’t much left of the original line and access to the trackbed was difficult?

[locoholic]

3 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

everything about this project has stop signs writ large all over it

Would you care to elaborate?

 

The Woody Bay railway is now a very popular tourist attraction. Why would extending the current rather short train ride be a mistake?

[Not Jeremy]

32 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Exactly, unless @34theletterbetweenB&D means ‘another location on the old trackbed’. But unless they do what the initial Peak Rail setup and a couple of others have done (closing and moving from their current site to a new base) then it still has the issue of requiring multiple sites to be open. I was under the impression that the National Park authorities might not be keen on this aspect either, as in contrast to providing car-free access into the National Park (a bit like the Welsh Highland) having two unconnected sites might be seen to encourage people to drive to and between them in turn.

 

You could have a railway and museum of the L&B on some other piece of trackbed (old or newly constructed but not genuine original L&B) nearby (a bit like the Ashover setup being created at Peak Rail, and arguably the Llanberis and Bala Lake railways, which interpret the history of the internal slate quarry railways but are on other (Padarn or standard gauge) trackbeds, but that largely takes away the opportunity to interpret or preserve original structures like Woody Bay station, unless they are also expensively relocated. I’m not sure why the Ashover group did this but presumably there wasn’t much left of the original line and access to the trackbed was difficult?

All of which pointless pontificating has got sweet Fanny Adams to do with the opportunities and challenges represented by the L&B project, currently based out of Woody Bay.

 

It is a magnificent setting and achievement as it is, if you haven't visited (which I judge you have not based upon the above) then it is really worth a trip!

[BR traction instructor]

 

What the L&B is actually all about....

 

BeRTIe

Edited October 5 by BR traction instructor

[Morello Cherry]

2 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

 

 

On Line ditto

 

Even more so since it takes seconds to screenshot someone saying something stupid.

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, Not Jeremy said:

All of which pointless pontificating has got sweet Fanny Adams to do with the opportunities and challenges represented by the L&B project, currently based out of Woody Bay.

 

It is a magnificent setting and achievement as it is, if you haven't visited (which I judge you have not based upon the above) then it is really worth a trip!

Sorry, not intended in that vein - I agree it’s great as it is, I’m also confused by the bizarre suggestion above that they should relocate (especially to somewhere not connected with the original L&B). Unless that’s not what @34theletterbetweenB&D meant by ‘find some less encumbered attractive location and build it there’ and we’re getting the wrong end of the stick? Anyway, I’m not sure why this would be preferable to the current line which is already in an attractive location with an attractive original station building. I haven’t managed to visit yet but it is on my list to visit - a few years ago I had a day where I had to choose between Woody Bay and Launceston and on the day getting to Launceston was slightly easier.

Edited October 4 by 009 micro modeller
Spelling

[Northmoor]

11 hours ago, Reorte said:

I thought the bridge over the A6 was still an unresolved issue.

It is (and an expensive one), but that is outside the Park boundary which is the River Derwent crossed on Rowsley viaduct 100yds beyond the A6.

[The Evil Bus Driver]

Wasn't there another land dispute at Woody Bay itself? Like a local claiming they owned 1ft of the trackbed between the platforms? (Why would anyone buy that, specifically?) IIRC this person then upped their claim to it being 4 ft. 

 

Didn't thecrailway have to wait for them to die or something? I think this is what they're likely to do with Mrs Not Bessemer. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

19 hours ago, locoholic said:

Would you care to elaborate?

No point, the opinion from a quiet voice of reason perspective is me done.

[BR traction instructor]

...there are many potential winners in this project, not least the residents of Lynton & Lynmouth. Instead of focussing on a current stalemate it might be in the interests of all to promote the potential park & ride benefits of engineering the line, as previously suggested in the initial proposals (in Steam Railway) through a new tunnel towards Lynton town first, rather than use the inconvenient location of the original station. The economic/tourism benefits of a steam railway (on what is an existing route) alone must sell the notion to the local council/N.P. authority, as well as releasing some current visitor parking land for improving Lynton. Once locals see the steam railway as a force for good through easier parking for them/less congested streets and a major boost to the local economy, even the hardest hearts may soften. The very presence of working steam in the heart of the town will increase footfall/appreciation and likely support for extensions towards Barnstaple.

 

It doesn't sound like money for the project is the limiting factor and the timescale/order of restoration for this project is less important than eventually achieving a full reopening at some point in the future.

 

BeRTIe

Edited October 5 by BR traction instructor

[Morello Cherry]

On 04/10/2024 at 14:43, johnofwessex said:

 

 

On Line ditto

 

It should be said that it never ceases to surprise me how little thought people 'representing' their lines either officially or unofficially give to how they come across online. The WSR is perhaps the most obvious example of how not to represent your railway. All too often volunteers seem love to adopt a hardman internet persona when discussing 'their' line - that they know and everyone who is on the outside is an idiot. To an extent I can understand that, afterall, they are ordinary volunteers (and this is attitude hardly unique within the wider hobby) but even senior figures who should know better such Chris Price, John Bailey, or that dude from WCR who pops up every now and again etc all give a pretty awful impression whenever they engage in public discussion. 'We're the masters' sums it up I think. (I would say that this is not true of all and there are many who do a really good job of representing their lines officially and unofficially).

 

I am never quite sure if the 'culture' of a railway influences the way in which people behave online or otherwise, or vice versa or a bit of both. Needless to say, toxic lines tend to be toxic online.

 

I do think the S&D at Midsomer Norton has the right attitude and approach and so I am happy to support the line and its efforts.

 

And here is the flipside, maybe I am an outlier here, but there are certain railways and museums that I simply choose not to go to because of the impression volunteers or managers give of their railway for example  WSR, NYMR and ELR are three on my 'not giving my money to' list. While I am quite sure that no one involved with those lines will lose any sleep about that. But if I, as someone who likes railways and wants them to succeed thinks that those associated with a railway/organisation etc are coming across as obnoxious douchebags, then how is that coming across to a wider or a more sat-on-the-fence public, local politicians, officials etc etc? In other words the people with no vested interest in a line but who have the power to grant or refuse permissions, allocate funding and so on and so forth. Bad attitudes will come back and bite organisations on the arse.

 

Edited October 5 by Morello Cherry

[Not Jeremy]

21 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

 

It should be said that it never ceases to surprise me how little thought people 'representing' their lines either officially or unofficially give to how they come across online. The WSR is perhaps the most obvious example of how not to represent your railway. All too often volunteers seem love to adopt a hardman internet persona when discussing 'their' line - that they know and everyone who is on the outside is an idiot. To an extent I can understand that, afterall, they are ordinary volunteers (and this is attitude hardly unique within the wider hobby) but even senior figures who should know better such Chris Price, John Bailey, or that dude from WCR who pops up every now and again etc all give a pretty awful impression whenever they engage in public discussion. 'We're the masters' sums it up I think. (I would say that this is not true of all and there are many who do a really good job of representing their lines officially and unofficially).

 

I am never quite sure if the 'culture' of a railway influences the way in which people behave online or otherwise, or vice versa or a bit of both. Needless to say, toxic lines tend to be toxic online.

 

I do think the S&D at Midsomer Norton has the right attitude and approach and so I am happy to support the line and its efforts.

 

And here is the flipside, maybe I am an outlier here, but there are certain railways and museums that I simply choose not to go to because of the impression volunteers or managers give of their railway for example  WSR, NYMR and ELR are three on my 'not giving my money to' list. While I am quite sure that no one involved with those lines will lose any sleep about that. But if I, as someone who likes railways and wants them to succeed thinks that those associated with a railway/organisation etc are coming across as obnoxious douchebags, then how is that coming across to a wider or a more sat-on-the-fence public, local politicians, officials etc etc? In other words the people with no vested interest in a line but who have the power to grant or refuse permissions, allocate funding and so on and so forth. Bad attitudes will come back and bite organisations on the arse.

 

 

Well yes, but don't forget that that you/we are all interested parties in this and pay vastly much more attention than do most people to the "shenanigans" to which you allude. "Most people" in this context are the vast majority of customers/potential customers for these organisations.

 

Also, most organisation have some challenging individuals within them, but the best of organisations will minimise this by recruiting well and carefully.

 

"Our" sector has huge reliance on and involvement with volunteers, and there's your problem. Even with the best of wills on both sides this is a much trickier organisation to "get right".

 

Nature of the beast I think, I can't even agree with myself half the time!!

[Morello Cherry]

I accept that.

 

Of course you and I have a vested interest because we want lines to succeed, and the flipside, also applies, those who are opposed to a line also have a very strong vested interest, Obviously the latter are more significant where a line is looking to expand and is much more dependent on things like planning permission etc.

 

With a more established line it'll be things like grant applications and/or expansion - ie need planning permission to expand your loco shed, station car park, or funding for x,y,z where you have to explain the benefit to the local community. Any which way you can't ignore the views of the locals and their representatives.

 

I do seem to recall that local MPs were dragged into the WSR affairs, and in Kent the then local MP was quite a strongly opposed to the RVR. (Apologies for making people read conservative home but it is a good example) https://conservativehome.com/2018/05/18/sally-ann-hart-restoring-steam-trains-is-a-threat-to-the-rother-valley/ - and they are exactly the sort of person who will look for any ammunition anywhere to use against the line.

 

The Hart piece in my opinion is interesting because it is an incoherent rant - but it is a rant of everything and anything that she could find as a reason to oppose the line, and if she could have found some poor behaviour/attitude from RVR volunteers or managers then you can bet she would have used it. And while it might read like it was written in green crayon or the comments section of the local facebook group, the reality is that at that time she was a key local councillor and went on to be the local MP until a few months ago.

 

Edited October 5 by Morello Cherry

[Reorte]

On 05/10/2024 at 18:19, Morello Cherry said:

 

It should be said that it never ceases to surprise me how little thought people 'representing' their lines either officially or unofficially give to how they come across online. The WSR is perhaps the most obvious example of how not to represent your railway. All too often volunteers seem love to adopt a hardman internet persona when discussing 'their' line - that they know and everyone who is on the outside is an idiot. To an extent I can understand that, afterall, they are ordinary volunteers (and this is attitude hardly unique within the wider hobby) but even senior figures who should know better such Chris Price, John Bailey, or that dude from WCR who pops up every now and again etc all give a pretty awful impression whenever they engage in public discussion. 'We're the masters' sums it up I think. (I would say that this is not true of all and there are many who do a really good job of representing their lines officially and unofficially).

That just seems to be a fairly common aspect of human nature. People generally don't like being questioned or disagreed with and will respond in a way that shows it. It's why larger businesses generally find someone who's good at PR to do that for them (although vague, evasive, blindly quoting the official line obvious PR speech type replies don't give a very good impression either).

[Not Jeremy]

For those of you who don't know the set up, haven't visited Woody Bay or who are wondering what all the "fuss" is about, here is a recent shot taken at Woody Bay.

 

 

Photograph lifted from David Nelhams' post on the Lynton and Barnstaple Facebook page:

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/lyntonandbarnstaple/?notif_id=1729442925788454&notif_t=group_request_to_participate_approved&ref=notif

 

"Perchance it is not dead, but sleepeth"

[Reorte]

Looks absolutely wonderful - as did the earlier pictures in the mist and damp, they were so atmospheric. I think I'd heard of the railway before this thread, but I'm not even certain about that, now it's really on my "to do" list if I'm ever in that part of the country again.