Hornby Price Increases Part 2

[ColinB]

24 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

I am pressing the "Don't believe all you see on TV" button on this.

I don't but then why would Hornby do a load of expensive modifications if they weren't concerned. The old HST worked I have two with the old NEM type couplings and non working fans. Generally warranty, competition and lack of sales are generally the drivers for change.

[woodenhead]

31 minutes ago, ColinB said:

I don't but then why would Hornby do a load of expensive modifications if they weren't concerned. The old HST worked I have two with the old NEM type couplings and non working fans. Generally warranty, competition and lack of sales are generally the drivers for change.

The Hornby model for certain key iconic items is regular refresh - A1/3, A4 and HST, followed closely by the Stanier Pacifics.

 

The class 91/MK4 never really had the iconic status of the HST until someone else wanted to do one (in two gauges) so they upgraded it but I am guessing the IEP might just achieve that status as it's all over the modern railway like the HST was.

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

They had advertised doing the Midland Pullman LSL HST which required tooling mods any way… if your spending money, best to do as much as you can in one go, than do it twice.

It's interesting they didn't do a Railroad on this version, if you can do a Grand Central without buffers then a Blue Pullman without it's headlight was possible.  There must be a different expected market for the BP HST set who will pay a lot of money for one.

[ColinB]

28 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

They had advertised doing the Midland Pullman LSL HST which required tooling mods any way… if your spending money, best to do as much as you can in one go, than do it twice.

 

They had upgraded the internals at least twice, some of the early PCs (prior to R27xx) have different electricals to the later ones (I found out the hard way). The upgraded body also has further upgrades internally.

 

I didn't know that, I noticed the fans and the upgraded NEM sockets all 3 of mine were new so I never touched them, other than to put DCC decoders in them. Thank you for the information though. Only the first one did I buy at full price, the other two were discount. Even the first one was cheap compared to the current price.

[andyman7]

4 hours ago, ColinB said:

I don't but then why would Hornby do a load of expensive modifications if they weren't concerned. The old HST worked I have two with the old NEM type couplings and non working fans. Generally warranty, competition and lack of sales are generally the drivers for change.

I have a first release 'super detail' HST from the first time round - the receipt is dated 2008. So it is fair to say the tools likely needed renewing anyway.

[ColinB]

1 minute ago, andyman7 said:

I have a first release 'super detail' HST from the first time round - the receipt is dated 2008. So it is fair to say the tools likely needed renewing anyway.

My first one is a lot later than that, probably 2017/2018 but I am pretty sure they don't have the electric fans.

[andyman7]

3 hours ago, ColinB said:

My first one is a lot later than that, probably 2017/2018 but I am pretty sure they don't have the electric fans.

They won't, the 'new' version has only been out since 2023

[jjb1970]

The current Hornby HST is in that category of models which could no doubt be beaten, but which is good enough that I don't expect a newer and better model would be enough of an improvement to make me want to replace what I have. A good model is a good model, it doesn't stop being good because a newer one comes out which is a bit better. In the 2000's there was a steady stream of releases which were a huge jump forward over older models of the same prototype. That's no longer the case. I am talking about appearance and running, it's different in terms of DCC functionality and trick features.

 

It reminds me of Roco HO in the 90's and 2000's. Roco were retooling models and proudly advertising that new tooling had rain gutters. Then European HO saw the same proliferation of suppliers as Chinese manufacturers removed the huge barrier to entry in no longer needing a factory. I looked at my existing Roco models, looked at newer alternatives and decided that in most cases I was happy with what I had.

[spamcan61]

6 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

The current Hornby HST is in that category of models which could no doubt be beaten, but which is good enough that I don't expect a newer and better model would be enough of an improvement to make me want to replace what I have. A good model is a good model, it doesn't stop being good because a newer one comes out which is a bit better. In the 2000's there was a steady stream of releases which were a huge jump forward over older models of the same prototype. That's no longer the case. I am talking about appearance and running, it's different in terms of DCC functionality and trick features.

 

I agree 100% with your logic, indeed that's why I drive a 17 year old Toyota ;-), but I'd also apply the logic to the Hornby Class 60, but we'll be awash with Class 60 models shortly.

[jjb1970]

On the 60, I  only have one but I am happy with it. If Accurascale or Cavalex make versions to entice me to buy more they're probably the ones I'll go for but as it is I really feel no urge to replace my Hornby model. The Accurascale 31 is much more interesting to me as I do like the 31 and there are a couple of livery/body versions I'd like to add.

[JSpencer]

16 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Knowing Hornby i’d half expect the Triang Midland Pullman to return in Railroad with a class 73/101/110/121/153/156 railroad DMU motor bogie.

😃

 

 

They did look at releasing the old Triang Midland Pullman which Bachmann announced their's. But the tooling was well past it's sell by date.

 

[Fireline]

5 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

They did look at releasing the old Triang Midland Pullman which Bachmann announced their's. But the tooling was well past it's sell by date.

 

And now no longer exists....

[davidw]

With prices going up and up and up.

What's the answer?

 

A ceiling is being reached where folk are saying no. That doesn't help manufacturers....

[spamcan61]

55 minutes ago, davidw said:

With prices going up and up and up.

What's the answer?

 

A ceiling is being reached where folk are saying no. That doesn't help manufacturers....

Yet, in OO at least, there's more manufacturers than ever and they're all concentrating on the ' HiFi' end of the market. You would think at some point market saturation will be reached, but doesn't seem to be happening yet.

[AY Mod]

1 hour ago, davidw said:

A ceiling is being reached where folk are saying no.

 

It doesn't matter how many say no; only how many say yes.

 

Just under 20 years ago we had the first £100 mainstream RTR loco (Bachmann 9F) and we're at the point now where I don't think we'll see any newly tooled (non-toy) loco with an RRP below £100 again.

[davidw]

12 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

It doesn't matter how many say no; only how many say yes.

 

Just under 20 years ago we had the first £100 mainstream RTR loco (Bachmann 9F) and we're at the point now where I don't think we'll see any newly tooled (non-toy) loco with an RRP below £100 again.

 

I completely agree. But those saying yes do seem to be getting less **. I'm not sure what the answer is - deeper pockets and more selective choices is only part of the answer not sure if there are others?

 

Fire/flash sales in twelve/eigtheen months time can't be good for the manufacurers,  dealers or ultimately the purchaser. Its quite a dilemma.

 

 

** comment based on working in model trade for a short time

Edited September 4 by davidw

[scottrains29]

1 hour ago, davidw said:

With prices going up and up and up.

What's the answer?

Hornby's prices are becoming even more ridiculous. Their ageing class 60 is £224 RRP and class 31 is a staggering £245!! This is far more expensive than forthcoming vastly superior Accurascale and Bachmann versions.

I think the answer is simple...

[The Stationmaster]

7 minutes ago, davidw said:

 

I completely agree. But those saying yes do seem to be getting less **. I'm not sure what the answer is - deeper pockets and more selective choices is only part of the answer not sure if there are others?

 

Fire/flash sales in twelve/eigtheen months time can't be good for the manufacurers,  dealers or ultimately the purchaser. Its quite a dilemma.

 

 

** comment based on working in model trade for a short time

It all depends on income and there are several sectors in society which have high disposable incomes with loads of money to spare (which partly explains the success and now the apparent 'price flexibility' of Hornby TT120).  In addition 'manufacturers' have adjusted to the changed market with in many cases relatively short runs of models aiming to sell them out quickly instead of carrying expensive holdings of stock although one has gone the other way with big runs which keeps prices down. 

 

What I find more surprising than the increase in prices of locos and coaches is the increase in the price of wagons.  We're now in the situation where a loco costing less than £200 could be hauling a train of, say, 10 short wheelbase r-t-r wagons which together cost well in excess of £300.

[The Stationmaster]

8 minutes ago, scottrains29 said:

Hornby's prices are becoming even more ridiculous. Their ageing class 60 is £224 RRP and class 31 is a staggering £245!! This is far more expensive than forthcoming vastly superior Accurascale and Bachmann versions.

I think the answer is simple...

Yes - BUT.  How many of the people who buy Hornby locos have ever heard of the various newcomers/not so new comers?  If you know of no other source and you shop online or even via some retailers you won't be looking for anything other than Hornby.  If you look on the wider 'net or look at RMweb you will know but does the 'typical' Hornby buyer, whoever they might be, know about the other offerings?

 

That might well be the approach that Hornby's sales people are taking and it might or might not work.   But look at it another way - if you want the latest in Class 60s or Class 31s and you are 'in the know'  it doesn't matter what Hornby charge for theirs if somebody else is producing a newly tooled model to 2020s standards.  

[andyman7]

18 minutes ago, scottrains29 said:

Hornby's prices are becoming even more ridiculous. Their ageing class 60 is £224 RRP and class 31 is a staggering £245!! This is far more expensive than forthcoming vastly superior Accurascale and Bachmann versions.

I think the answer is simple...

But it's academic really when examples of both can be picked up new for the £130 mark. I'm not sure why people are getting so worked up about a notional RRP when what matters is what price they are actually sold at.

 

We know that in the wide world Hornby will sell some off the website or via Hamleys or other well placed stores at RRP, whilst in the everyday trade they'll shift eventually at whatever price levels the arbitrage of the market delivers.

 

 

[scottrains29]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Yes - BUT.  How many of the people who buy Hornby locos have ever heard of the various newcomers/not so new comers?

I'd be very surprised if there's anyone willing to fork out £245 for a Hornby class 31 who hasn't heard of Bachmann, or Accurascale.

Edited September 4 by scottrains29

[JohnR]

28 minutes ago, scottrains29 said:

Hornby's prices are becoming even more ridiculous. Their ageing class 60 is £224 RRP and class 31 is a staggering £245!! This is far more expensive than forthcoming vastly superior Accurascale and Bachmann versions.

I think the answer is simple...

 

For me, thats the frustrating thing. I dont mind paying top money for a brand new tooled, super detailed, high spec model. You get what you pay for. But when the same values are being asked for items of much lower specification, tooled many many years go, it does feel like a rip off.

 

Wagons are a good example. 

 

Hornby Railroad wagon: £22.99

Dapol wagon: £12.22. 

 

 

[jjb1970]

42 minutes ago, scottrains29 said:

Hornby's prices are becoming even more ridiculous. Their ageing class 60 is £224 RRP and class 31 is a staggering £245!! This is far more expensive than forthcoming vastly superior Accurascale and Bachmann versions.

I think the answer is simple...

 

I think we should be fair. The Bachmann 31 is priced to compete with Accurascale, the 40 (not a new model, but still very good) now has an SRP of £229, the 70 (also an old model, though excellently done) seems to have an SRP of £249. Their new 47 and 37 are about £240-245 (and personally, I don't feel ripped off for either).

 

Looking beyond Bachmann and Hornby, Heljan's 86 seems to have an SRP of £240-255, their new 47 is £249, the NBL Type 1 had an SRP of £249 I think. And there was the Ruston gronk at £199 and didn't have the decency to be well done for £199. And the 304 looks to be £489 for a three car unit.

 

These are just a few examples. HO can be much more expensive. So I'm not sure we should describe Hornby prices as staggering or unduly expensive. The key to me is less about price and more about whether a model makes me smile and enjoy looking at it and using it. I don't buy many models, but am happy to pay for those I like and want.

[jjb1970]

32 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

But it's academic really when examples of both can be picked up new for the £130 mark. I'm not sure why people are getting so worked up about a notional RRP when what matters is what price they are actually sold at.

 

We know that in the wide world Hornby will sell some off the website or via Hamleys or other well placed stores at RRP, whilst in the everyday trade they'll shift eventually at whatever price levels the arbitrage of the market delivers.

 

 

 

Models are like anything else, the only price that matters is the price you pay. Bachmann de-facto price is SRP-15%, Hornby looks to be SRP-10%, and if you look around you still see plenty of deep discount clearance offers.

[andyman7]

35 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

For me, thats the frustrating thing. I dont mind paying top money for a brand new tooled, super detailed, high spec model. You get what you pay for. But when the same values are being asked for items of much lower specification, tooled many many years go, it does feel like a rip off.

 

Wagons are a good example. 

 

Hornby Railroad wagon: £22.99

Dapol wagon: £12.22. 

 

 

That's the same frustration that many people feel when a 200 mile train journey costs less than a 20 mile one, or a small bottle of water is 4 x a big one. 'You get what you pay for' is like many maxims honoured as much in the breach as in the truth.

 

The reality is that goods and services are priced to markets - every producer will have more profitable lines that support the less profitable ones. Look at Dapol's Kitmaster/ex-Airfix kits - for example the Mineral Wagon, which was tooled up around 60 years ago and originally cost 2/-. Is that a rip-off now at a tenner? Or priced at what the market will support to help keep the business going?

Edited September 4 by andyman7