Hornby Price Increases Part 2

[No Decorum]

19 hours ago, ColinB said:

I am one of those people, yes I have several Accurascale models ordered because if I don't they won't be there. I am extremely lucky because of my old job and good pension I have a reasonable amount of disposable income Now we come to Hornby, I don't order multiple orders of their locos and before you say I am Hornby bashing, I will add that they are just poor value for money. Actually if anything I am wondering whether to cancel the existing ones I have on preorder, people keep saying I Hornby bash, so why I am I buying their products. I was looking down my list of preorders with Rails generally with sound fitted, were little more than the price of a DC Ready one from another manufacturer and there is the issue. It is my opinion, I am sure others will have a different one.

I agree with much of what you say. I have posted quite a few crticisms of Hornby but I don’t regard it as Hornby bashing; it is pointing out shortcomings in Hornby models and there have been too many of those. I have avoided buying some Hornby products because of reported problems. On the other hand, I have bought some because no-one else produces a particular model. Leaving aside complaints about how much models in general cost, your point that Hornby models are generally more expensive than the products of rival companies is valid; I am repeatedly struck by how close in price a Hornby non-sound model is to a broadly comparable sound model from another company. It’s little wonder considering how much debt Hornby has to service and how much Hornby must spend ploughing its own furrow in DCC when other companies work with DCC specialists.

[ColinB]

30 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

I agree with much of what you say. I have posted quite a few crticisms of Hornby but I don’t regard it as Hornby bashing; it is pointing out shortcomings in Hornby models and there have been too many of those. I have avoided buying some Hornby products because of reported problems. On the other hand, I have bought some because no-one else produces a particular model. Leaving aside complaints about how much models in general cost, your point that Hornby models are generally more expensive than the products of rival companies is valid; I am repeatedly struck by how close in price a Hornby non-sound model is to a broadly comparable sound model from another company. It’s little wonder considering how much debt Hornby has to service and how much Hornby must spend ploughing its own furrow in DCC when other companies work with DCC specialists.

Thank you, I totally agree, my views are very similar. I do actually buy a lot of Hornby models but a lot of their latest ones you can buy just as good second hand. That is one of the disadvantages as a company of not updating your product. The Hornby bashing was a reference to two individuals that should have known better. 

[adb968008]

If Hornby was making new detailed models, that werent re-runs, duplicates of toolings made this century i’d be much more interested.

 

its what companies make, not who makes it.

 

its been a very quiet few years from Margate, the high spots being the 78xxx 

 

if they make there money on other stuff so be it, it just makes them less relevent to me.

 

But overall the industry in the last 5 years has been high on promises and low on deliveries.. Too much duplication and price rises at a time I think peak interest was Covid period… now were on the other side things definitely seem slower.. next year sees the 8th anniversary since I ordered my SLW 24/1’s… and thats from a base 24 tooling that already exists and first was on shelves back in November 2015 !.. we moaned the Bachmann locos took years now its becoming an industry norm to wait over half a decade and watch the price go up a 1/3rd…

 

i’m coming to the conclusion that far from duplication of 30-50 year old greats of likes like the LMS 2MT tank, LNER N2, GWR County or Southern L1, but that lifespan will run out before we see things like a Tilbury tank, 77000 or 84xxx, Saint affordable for the first time at all… but i’m sure another Bulleid, Castle, 8F, Pannier etc will come forth first.

Edited September 30 by adb968008

[Legend]

Kernow are showing the latest HST at £404 , after a 10% discount from £449.99 . Really Hornby , you’ve got to be kidding ! Yes I know they can charge what they want for it and it’s up to us whether to buy or not , but this has got to be excessive and it’s hard to avoid the conclusion that they must have a huge profit margin on this .  No I don’t know  the costings , but let’s just step back for a moment .

 

This  is a motor coach and a dummy . So what’s a highly detailed locomotive at the moment - how about an Accurascale 37 - so £170 .  What’s a dummy coach with working headlights . How about the recently introduced EFE PCV £80, so combined  £ 250 . Even if you went Heljan/Bachmann full price 47 @£240 you would still come in at £320 for the pair . So how can you get to £449.99 !   Then of course, this model has been around for several years , since 2005 I think , with a slight update a few years ago , so the tooling has to have paid for itself by now .

 

I think Hornby have seriously lost it . There is no competition on the HST, unless you go for their Railroad one or second hand, which is no doubt why they think they can get away with it . I seriously hope Accurascales new annoucement 3/10/24 is an HST . 
 

 

 

 

Edited October 2 by Legend

[Pecketts And Panniers]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

Kernow are showing the latest HST at £404

This one? https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/80124/R30097TXS-Hornby-InterCity-Executive-Class-43-HST-Train-Pack

That's DCC sound fitted, so a comparison to a £170 DCC ready Accurascale locomotive isn't perhaps entirely fair. The Accurascale DCC fitted variant is a further £90, at £260, and adding in your £80 PCV gets you to £340, and I'm not sure I'd say that the EFE PCV is equivalent to a full HST body.

Granted, it does seem a lot for the Hornby model, but I don't think it's quite as bad as you're saying. Effectively, nobody pays Hornby list prices. If you buy from a retailer, they are all at 10% discount and thise who do buy lots direct will be in the Collector's Club and get the same 10% off, with the caveat that the "saving" then has to be spent with Hornby. Of course, Accurascale do the same thing, but they only offer 3%.

[Dunsignalling]

6 minutes ago, Pecketts And Panniers said:

This one? https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/80124/R30097TXS-Hornby-InterCity-Executive-Class-43-HST-Train-Pack

That's DCC sound fitted, so a comparison to a £170 DCC ready Accurascale locomotive isn't perhaps entirely fair. The Accurascale DCC fitted variant is a further £90, at £260, and adding in your £80 PCV gets you to £340, and I'm not sure I'd say that the EFE PCV is equivalent to a full HST body.

Granted, it does seem a lot for the Hornby model, but I don't think it's quite as bad as you're saying. Effectively, nobody pays Hornby list prices. If you buy from a retailer, they are all at 10% discount and thise who do buy lots direct will be in the Collector's Club and get the same 10% off, with the caveat that the "saving" then has to be spent with Hornby. Of course, Accurascale do the same thing, but they only offer 3%.

 

Though, in the case of the HST the second body is the same as the first so there's no separate tooling cost involved.

 

At that price I presume you get DCC sound in both cars?

 

 

Edited October 2 by Dunsignalling

[Roddy Angus]

5 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

At that price I presume you get DCC sound in both cars?

 

 

I think you do, the description says both cars have DCC sockets and speakers.

 

Roddy

[Pecketts And Panniers]

9 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

At that price I presume you get DCC sound in both cars?

From the Hornby web site blurb

"Upgraded for 2023, the Hornby Class 43 pack includes lights front and rear and well as motorised fans in the roof and a kinematic coupling system. Fitted with a 5 pole motor and dual flywheels the motor car is all wheel drive. Both units are fitted with 21 pin DCC sockets and pre-fitted dual speakers which allow for the use of sound on DCC as well as offering greater control of the lights and fans."

So, yes, it's DCC sound in each car, and, by the sound of it, DCC-controlled fans in each one too. 
 

Can't see any mention of motorised, much less DCC-controlled, fans on the Accurascale model specs, so overall, it's not looking that bad. Certainly, it's not an apples-to-apples comparison between the two models.

Edited October 2 by Pecketts And Panniers
Added Accurascale comment.

[andyman7]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

Kernow are showing the latest HST at £404 , after a 10% discount from £449.99 . Really Hornby , you’ve got to be kidding ! Yes I know they can charge what they want for it and it’s up to us whether to buy or not , but this has got to be excessive and it’s hard to avoid the conclusion that they must have a huge profit margin on this .  No I don’t know  the costings , but let’s just step back for a moment .

 

This  is a motor coach and a dummy . So what’s a highly detailed locomotive at the moment - how about an Accurascale 37 - so £170 .  What’s a dummy coach with working headlights . How about the recently introduced EFE PCV £80, so combined  £ 250 . Even if you went Heljan/Bachmann full price 47 @£240 you would still come in at £320 for the pair . So how can you get to £449.99 !   Then of course, this model has been around for several years , since 2005 I think , with a slight update a few years ago , so the tooling has to have paid for itself by now .

 

I think Hornby have seriously lost it . There is no competition on the HST, unless you go for their Railroad one or second hand, which is no doubt why they think they can get away with it . I seriously hope Accurascales new annoucement 3/10/24 is an HST . 
 

 

 

 

I think the fact that you've compared another manufacturer's non-sound offering to a sound fitted one, ignored the fact that the model has two sound decoders and stated incorrectly that it is 2005 tooling when this is a brand new 2023 tool is an example of how selective armchair assessments of pricing can be. 

 

Applying this sort of back-of-the-envelope logic, 'If' Accurascale were to announce an HST, based on current pricing of £270 for sound fitted locos, £100 for an additional sound decoder and £60 for a coach you would get to...£430. 

[woodenhead]

@Legend and perhaps the price reflects an expectation of competition so making hay whilst the sun shines.  Once there is competition the price will most certainly drop, but at the moment unless you buy secondhand it is the only HST in town.

Edited October 2 by woodenhead
spelling

[ColinB]

Actually that is quite cheap for the sound fitted option, it looks like a £30 price for each sound unit if you compare it with the models without sound. A HM7000 sound unit is normally about £60 plus, so in this case it is good value. I do comparisons all the time and mention it on the site, but I have given up as I get so many negative responses and insults. The price is what it is, if like my East Coast HST that I bought off Hornby at a substantial discount, the answer is obviously not many people bought it at its original price. My one does have working fans but there again so does my Cavalex class 56. I will just leave it at that.

[GrumpyPenguin]

13 hours ago, Pecketts And Panniers said:

"Both units are fitted with 21 pin DCC sockets and pre-fitted dual speakers which allow for the use of sound on DCC as well as offering greater control of the lights and fans."

So, yes, it's DCC sound in each car, and, by the sound of it, DCC-controlled fans in each one too.

I read that as DCC Sound Ready, not DCC Sound Fitted.

[Pecketts And Panniers]

17 minutes ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

I read that as DCC Sound Ready, not DCC Sound Fitted.

At the very top of the product page https://uk.Hornby.com/products/br-intercity-executive-class-43-hst-train-pack-era-7-sound-fitted-r30097txs it says "Sound fitted" as part of the title. It's in the URL as well!

The Tech Specs section says
 

HM7000 Fitted - With Sound

Based on that, I'm going to go out on a limb here and says it's sound fitted.

[GrumpyPenguin]

13 minutes ago, Pecketts And Panniers said:

At the very top of the product page https://uk.Hornby.com/products/br-intercity-executive-class-43-hst-train-pack-era-7-sound-fitted-r30097txs it says "Sound fitted" as part of the title. It's in the URL as well!

The Tech Specs section says
 

HM7000 Fitted - With Sound

Based on that, I'm going to go out on a limb here and says it's sound fitted.

I have read the blurb, it seems a little contradictry. (speeling ?).

[ColinB]

8 minutes ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

I have read the blurb, it seems a little contradictry. (speeling ?).

I read it as fitted with sound. I noticed on their new price lists that they had increased the difference in price between the DCC ready and the sound fitted versions, this one obvious did not have that rise. Hornby really do need to get a grip on their descriptions, I was looking up whether a model had traction tyres and rather than listing in the technical specs it appeared at the end of the history of the model. They also seem to have issues with whether some of their models have 3 or 5 pole motors. Then they have had issues with whether the model has 8 or 21 pin DCC sockets. I think they might have finally sorted the motors and the DCC sockets.

[scottrains29]

Some of their latest HSTs eg the GNER set don't actually have rotating fans, yet the cost is the same. The similarly numbered East Coast set does have rotating fans, so I'm not actually sure what ones in real life had fans and what ones didn't. Maybe worth finding out before you buy a Hornby HST as it's a nice feature to have.

 

The Hornby tooling is getting on a bit with the model showing ugly mould lines and really not worth the £400rrp. I paid less than £100 for the DCC fitted Virgin (original livery) version when it came out and that had more features (rotating fan, opening cab doors etc).

 

With the HST being such a popular model I suspect another manufacturer will produce one especially if Hornby can command such a high price for theirs. In the 80s/90s we always had two models to choose from, the Hornby version and the (better) Lima version, and I suspect the market today would easily support two (or more) manufacturers producing them.

[ColinB]

20 minutes ago, scottrains29 said:

Some of their latest HSTs eg the GNER set don't actually have rotating fans, yet the cost is the same. The similarly numbered East Coast set does have rotating fans, so I'm not actually sure what ones in real life had fans and what ones didn't. Maybe worth finding out before you buy a Hornby HST as it's a nice feature to have.

 

The Hornby tooling is getting on a bit with the model showing ugly mould lines and really not worth the £400rrp. I paid less than £100 for the DCC fitted Virgin (original livery) version when it came out and that had more features (rotating fan, opening cab doors etc).

 

With the HST being such a popular model I suspect another manufacturer will produce one especially if Hornby can command such a high price for theirs. In the 80s/90s we always had two models to choose from, the Hornby version and the (better) Lima version, and I suspect the market today would easily support two (or more) manufacturers producing them.

Thank you for that information, I didn't know that were doing that. When I was looking to buy the East Coast set I could not find any info about the fans, luckily it did but even then the instructions about loudspeakers didn't match the parts and even when I contacted Hornby they didn't send me the ones in the manual. Unfortunately this is something they need to get a grip on.

[ColinB]

Ok, I honestly don't get this. Hornby increases its prices on the 1st September by about 10% most notably on TT120 products, now it is October and they have many on sale with 15% discount. Why? If it needed to raise prices to cover current costs then why suddenly discount them.

[Legend]

44 minutes ago, ColinB said:

Ok, I honestly don't get this. Hornby increases its prices on the 1st September by about 10% most notably on TT120 products, now it is October and they have many on sale with 15% discount. Why? If it needed to raise prices to cover current costs then why suddenly discount them.

Seems mixed up doesn’t it ?  I read it as they need an overall increase to support the business going forward. Meanwhile they want to reduce stocks and generate some cash , so are trying to shift goods out of warehouse by offering large discounts  . Surprised  that TT120 included as these items supposed to be selling well . 

Edited October 4 by Legend

[GrumpyPenguin]

2 minutes ago, Legend said:

Seems mixed up doesn’t it ?  I read it as they need an overall increase to support the business going forward. Meanwhile they want to reduce stocks and generate some cash , so are trying to shift goods out of warehouse by offering large discounts  . Surprised  that TT120 included as these items supposed to be selling well . 

Probably because 15% off a new price "seems" better than 5% off an old price & enough people fall for it.

[ColinB]

2 minutes ago, Legend said:

Seems mixed up doesn’t it ?  I read it as they need an overall increase to support the business going forward meanwhile they want to reduce stocks and generate some cash , so are trying to shift goods out of warehouse by offering large dis punts . Surprised  that TT120 included as these items supposed to be selling well . 

That is what I thought. I looked at the Rails sale just now, some of the reductions are amazing. I didn't even realise they made multiple variations of the same loco.

[spamcan61]

49 minutes ago, ColinB said:

Ok, I honestly don't get this. Hornby increases its prices on the 1st September by about 10% most notably on TT120 products, now it is October and they have many on sale with 15% discount. Why? If it needed to raise prices to cover current costs then why suddenly discount them.

Rails and TMC have several items (HSTs and 08s for example) at 40% or more discount, looks like they're clearing the warehouse on these products already. Some items have dissappeared from the sale already - executive livery HSTs for example.

Edited October 4 by spamcan61

[woodenhead]

40 minutes ago, Legend said:

Seems mixed up doesn’t it ?  I read it as they need an overall increase to support the business going forward. Meanwhile they want to reduce stocks and generate some cash , so are trying to shift goods out of warehouse by offering large discounts  . Surprised  that TT120 included as these items supposed to be selling well . 

 

35 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Rails and TMC have several items (HSTs and 08s for example) at 40% or more discount, looks like they're clearing the warehouse on these products already. Some items have dissappeared from the sale already - executive livery HSTs for example.

TT120 is still a finite market size just like N, so it won't take long for everyone who wants one or more of the items on sale has one and needs to be tempted to buy up the rest of the stock.

 

But the items they are discounting are A3s and A4s which were the launch loco so these are potential re-run items that have not sold.  Similarly the HST is probably another item, people filled their boots when they came out and perhaps there was an over production or second run and they are now sat on the shelf.

 

So basically Hornby are clearing out the slowest sellers with a big discount, which may actually encourage someone else to give TT120 a try or simply have people choose to double up on some items as the price is good.  The 08 might be the oddity, but it's two less common liveries that were bright but perhaps less popular, Hornby live and learn and may start to offer more traditional liveries on such locos.

 

Looks like standard discounting on end of run stock clearance.

[smr248]

3 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Looks like standard discounting on end of run stock clearance.

So, this could just be a case of Hornby doing something sensible?

 

What I find strange is that Rails have also got some very large discounts on Heljan products but that doesn't seem to generate any comment (obviously this isn't the obvious place to make such a comment and I haven't been looking very hard...).

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, smr248 said:

So, this could just be a case of Hornby doing something sensible?

 

What I find strange is that Rails have also got some very large discounts on Heljan products but that doesn't seem to generate any comment (obviously this isn't the obvious place to make such a comment and I haven't been looking very hard...).

With Heljan the discounts are in OO - kind of expected for some locos and pretty normal that remaining stocks eventually end up with deep discounts if you are prepared to wait and take the chance.  In O, there has been a recognition of over supply of models and perhaps a bursting of a bubble so again deep discounting is to be expected to get things going.

 

With Hornby, they are commenting themselves on having too much stock in the warehouse and being careful not to flood the market which will impact it's retailers who also have unsold stock.  What people don't know is what makes up that unsold warehouse stock, it's not necessarily all trains but perhaps this is an indicator that some of it is TT120.  That doesn't make TT120 a failure, but perhaps some of the early re-runs did not do quite as well second time around.  Lets face it there was a massive rush at the beginning and it might have been difficult to forecast what was simply people giving it a try and how many more potential sales existed out there as it was a new product.

 

It looks like TMC, Rails and Kernow are the main outlets for these discounted warehouse clearances for the manufacturers perhaps mainly because they can soak them up, have warehouse space and online visibility to clear them fairly quickly.