Hornby Price Increases Part 2

[ColinB]

1 hour ago, Bulleidboy100 said:

I watched a Pete Waterman video yesterday, where he explained he had been to the opening of a model railway club's new clubroom. He explained the average age was sixty-five to ninety, and they were all moaning about the price of new loco's. In the video his view was that we had just come full circle and that price's were fair and inline with inflation and the general cost of everything today. When we (many of us) started work in the early sixties wages were low (compared with today) - I was on £5 a week in 1962 - a Hornby 3-rail Duchess of Montrose was about £15 - so three weeks wages or thereabout. As we all got older and earnt more the hobby became easier to cope with and we could buy (within reason) whatever we liked. As many of us have now reached retirement age and many may be on a basic state pension - £221 per week - about the price of a new DCC Ready loco - it would appear we have come full circle. I tend to agree with Pete Waterman's view.

I think we have covered this many times before, I just look at value for money. Looking at the amount of sales recently and the discounts available, it looks like a lot of people agree with me. The only exception is certain brands, where if you don't preorder you don't get one. In the end people can argue about the price not being that expensive, the wider audience of the general public will decide.

[adb968008]

5 minutes ago, ColinB said:

The only exception is certain brands, where if you don't preorder you don't get one.

Which brands ?

 

A few years ago this may have been the case but most now you can order from a retailer somewhere. At best you might get it cheaper with a pre-order but as side of some exclusive/limited/special/retailer edition everything is everywhere, and tbh a lot isnt an immediate sell out.

 

if there is an issue its the huge backlog of announced toolings, which are painfully slow to arrive, and what i’m seeing, in modern image, is often they are arriving unexpectedly duplicated.

Edited September 29 by adb968008

[ColinB]

23 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Which brands ?

 

A few years ago this may have been the case but most now you can order from a retailer somewhere. At best you might get it cheaper with a pre-order but as side of some exclusive/limited/special/retailer edition everything is everywhere, and tbh a lot isnt an immediate sell out.

 

if there is an issue its the huge backlog of announced toolings, which are painfully slow to arrive, and what i’m seeing, in modern image, is often they are arriving unexpectedly duplicated.

I am not going to say, but I think most people will know. I recently bought a Deltic off them via Rails, unusually Rails had a few spare.

[The Stationmaster]

When it comes to prices they are what they are and as long as people are prepared and able to pay them they will not come down.  But when people are not prepared to pay them they seem to come down - certainly so with less popular models.  This is because manufacturers and retailers need to clear their shelves and get some/most/all of their investment back rather than watch sitting doing nothing.

 

In the end of the day for a non-essential item like a model loco it really is the market that will decide whether or not to pay for it; whatever the manufacturer might hope to get for it.  And the more things there are being offered to us the more choosy many of us can be about what we are prepared to buy and what we are prepared to pay for it.

[Free At Last]

2 hours ago, Bulleidboy100 said:

 I was on £5 a week in 1962 - a Hornby 3-rail Duchess of Montrose was about £15

A look through a '62 Railway Modeller finds 3-rail DoMs for 50/- and 2-rail for 70/- at Hattons.

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

Personally I think it's the relative cost of toy trains compared with other ways of frittering away my disposable income that's the Issue. I recently bought a new TV for the first time in 20 years, 230 quid for a respectable spec. telly. About the same as a non sound loco at list price - to me that's the price issue.

 

And how many TVs are sold per hour compared to UK specific model trains!

 

Stop trying to compare completely dissimilar items! - TVs and white goods are not considered 'luxury' or discretionary' items for modern living these days, more like essentials.

 

 

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, ColinB said:

I think we have covered this many times before, I just look at value for money. Looking at the amount of sales recently and the discounts available, it looks like a lot of people agree with me. The only exception is certain brands, where if you don't preorder you don't get one. In the end people can argue about the price not being that expensive, the wider audience of the general public will decide.

I don't remember it being easy to buy lots of trains when I was young, my dad wasn't buying new stuff every week, certainly not multiples of one loco type in one go which some appear to be able to do today.  We had to save up, wait for birthdays and Christmas.

 

Sales are a general expectation of the public these days and not specific to model railways, the simple fact is everyone wants to feel they've got a bargain and it generates this new world we inhabit where RRP is actually just a point from which to begin discounting be it food, TVs, fridges, phones, beds, carpets, cars or model trains.

[spamcan61]

Just now, phil-b259 said:

 

And how many TVs are sold per hour compared to UK specific model trains!

 

Stop trying to compare completely dissimilar items! - TVs and white goods are not considered 'luxury' or discretionary' items for modern living these days, more like essentials.

 

 

They're both ways of spending disposable income, so I don't see why they can't be compared. Personally I don't watch TV so for sure it's not essential to me. 

[ColinB]

15 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

I don't remember it being easy to buy lots of trains when I was young, my dad wasn't buying new stuff every week, certainly not multiples of one loco type in one go which some appear to be able to do today.  We had to save up, wait for birthdays and Christmas.

 

Sales are a general expectation of the public these days and not specific to model railways, the simple fact is everyone wants to feel they've got a bargain and it generates this new world we inhabit where RRP is actually just a point from which to begin discounting be it food, TVs, fridges, phones, beds, carpets, cars or model trains.

I am always saying this but I will say it again. When we were young the world was a totally different place so any comparison you make is a total waste of time. Go look at a classic car or one of my bikes and then compare it with the current ones. When I was young I was a child so I got bought what my parents could afford, I remember the catalogues back then, Triang made a lot of locos. There is also the fact that there is a ton of secondhand out there easy to buy whereas in my younger day it was cards in the front of newsagents shops. So could we for once be sensible and look at the world we live in now, not the 60s. Any comparison is irrelevant only to learn from our mistakes.

[woodenhead]

Just now, ColinB said:

I am always saying this but I will say it again. When we were young the world was a totally different place so any comparison you make is a total waste of time. Go look at a classic car or one of my bikes and then compare it with the current ones. When I was young I was a child so I got bought what my parents could afford, I remember the catalogues back then, Triang made a lot of locos. There is also the fact that there is a ton of secondhand out there easy to buy whereas in my younger day it was cards in the front of newsagents shops. So could we for once be sensible and look at the world we live in now, not the 60s. Any comparison is irrelevant only to learn from our mistakes.

My point was model trains were still a luxury in the 1960s and 1970s, despite them being 'expensive' now all I see in various Accurascale threads is people with the 'multiples' of locos ordered.  If model trains are so much more expensive now than in the past, how is it that so many people seem to be able to afford so many new trains.  And whilst Accurascale are doing a roaring trade in EE locomotives, the other companies are also doing their own good business be it generic bogie coaches, accurate MR locomotives, accurate LSWR locomotives and Hornby have found a way to bring out a new scale that has survived it's first year and hopefully will build from here.

 

If model trains were not value for money then people would not be buying them and we would not be on RMWeb talking about it.

[ColinB]

12 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

My point was model trains were still a luxury in the 1960s and 1970s, despite them being 'expensive' now all I see in various Accurascale threads is people with the 'multiples' of locos ordered.  If model trains are so much more expensive now than in the past, how is it that so many people seem to be able to afford so many new trains.  And whilst Accurascale are doing a roaring trade in EE locomotives, the other companies are also doing their own good business be it generic bogie coaches, accurate MR locomotives, accurate LSWR locomotives and Hornby have found a way to bring out a new scale that has survived it's first year and hopefully will build from here.

 

If model trains were not value for money then people would not be buying them and we would not be on RMWeb talking about it.

I am one of those people, yes I have several Accurascale models ordered because if I don't they won't be there. I am extremely lucky because of my old job and good pension I have a reasonable amount of disposable income Now we come to Hornby, I don't order multiple orders of their locos and before you say I am Hornby bashing, I will add that they are just poor value for money. Actually if anything I am wondering whether to cancel the existing ones I have on preorder, people keep saying I Hornby bash, so why I am I buying their products. I was looking down my list of preorders with Rails generally with sound fitted, were little more than the price of a DC Ready one from another manufacturer and there is the issue. It is my opinion, I am sure others will have a different one.

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, spamcan61 said:

They're both ways of spending disposable income, so I don't see why they can't be compared. Personally I don't watch TV so for sure it's not essential to me. 

 

Because there is a little thing called 'economics of scale'....

 

TVs (and other household goods) are so cheap precisely because they are sold all over the world in HUGE quantities! (why do you think virtually every device you buy has its documents are printed in a huge number of different languages)

 

That is in stark contrast to UK outline model trains which are found in a minuscule number of homes nationally (and a minuscule amount internationally)

 

Even the electronics inside are usually designed to cope with both UK / EU (240V @ 50Hz) and North American based systems (110V @ 60Hz) so one model can be shipped worldwide.

 

As top what you personally consider 'essential' is totally irreverent!

 

The whole reason why companies exist in the first place is to make money for their owners - and the fact we have multiple companies producing TVs means there must be lots of people out there wanting to buy them in such large numbers that all companies involved can still make a healthy profit from the business.

 

Edited September 29 by phil-b259

[woodenhead]

5 minutes ago, ColinB said:

I am one of those people, yes I have several Accurascale models ordered because if I don't they won't be there. I am extremely lucky because of my old job and good pension I have a reasonable amount of disposable income Now we come to Hornby, I don't order multiple orders of their locos and before you say I am Hornby bashing, I will add that they are just poor value for money. Actually if anything I am wondering whether to cancel the existing ones I have on preorder, people keep saying I Hornby bash, so why I am I buying their products. I was looking down my list of preorders with Rails generally with sound fitted, were little more than the price of a DC Ready one from another manufacturer and there is the issue. It is my opinion, I am sure others will have a different one.

If you can afford several locos on order at one time on a pension, then they must be good value for money is all I am saying.

 

It's still discretionary spend and no one, not even Accurascale is forcing you to buy their models yet you can order several.

[ColinB]

5 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

If you can afford several locos on order at one time on a pension, then they must be good value for money is all I am saying.

 

It's still discretionary spend and no one, not even Accurascale is forcing you to buy their models yet you can order several.

No, they are not, that is my choice. As to the pension,  people forget, I get two thirds of what I got working  as a Senior Engineer at a major automotive company, my address probably gives it away.

[phil-b259]

13 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

If you can afford several locos on order at one time on a pension, then they must be good value for money is all I am saying.

 

It's still discretionary spend and no one, not even Accurascale is forcing you to buy their models yet you can order several.

 

There are pensions - and there are pensions....

 

While its true that a significant number of pensioners struggle and many need to be careful with their income, there is in fact a large chunk of pensioners who are actually pretty well off.

 

During all the fuss over the ending of the automatic fuel allowance the media uncovered several cases of pensioners using their allowance as a state provided slush fund to go towards a whole host of things completely unrelated to paying fuel bills including foreign holidays. Not sure if any folk use it to go towards model train purchases but I would be surprised if nobody did.

 

Moreover although when looking at clubs and some shows it may seem like the demographic of the hobby is older folk, that is incredibly misleading and there are lots of people still in full employment partaking of the hobby (including many who have a good few decades left before they retire. These folk may not be as 'visible' as older folk are but they decent amounts of money to spend and manufacturers know that.

Edited September 29 by phil-b259

[ColinB]

3 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

There are pensions - and there are pensions....

 

While its true that a significant number of pensioners struggle and many need to be careful with their income, there is in fact a large chunk of pensioners who are actually pretty well off.

 

During all the fuss over the ending of the automatic fuel allowance the media uncovered several cases of pensioners using their allowance as a state provided slush fund to go towards a whole host of things completely unrelated to paying fuel bills including foreign holidays. Not sure if any folk use it to go towards model train purchases but I would be surprised if nobody did.

 

Moreover although when looking at clubs and some shows it may seem like the demographic of the hobby is older folk, that is incredibly misleading and there are lots of people still in full employment partaking of the hobby (including many who have a good few decades left before they retire. These folk may not be as 'visible' as older folk are but they decent amounts of money to spend and manufacturers know that.

Many of my colleagues when they retired immediately got the same jobs working for someone else, I am always getting people asking me to apply for a job. Yes there are a lot of people on small pensions or just the government one, but many on final salary ones are reasonably well off. Then there is the fact that most of these locos are worth money secondhand, my friend loves holidays and pop concerts, when he has done his thing there is nothing left. At least with a decent loco it is worth something secondhand.

[spamcan61]

54 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Because there is a little thing called 'economics of scale'....

 

Of course, but I thought the debate was about consumer prices and perceived value, not manufacturing costs. There isn't a direct relationship between the two, well obviously one wants the former to be rather more than the latter.

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, ColinB said:

I am not going to say, but I think most people will know. I recently bought a Deltic off them via Rails, unusually Rails had a few spare.

So if Rails was selling them, there wasnt a situation…

Quote

where if you don't preorder you don't get one

which negates the point your suggesting.

oddly your example response even says so..

 

sure some offer preorder discounts, others offer points, but don't confuse a strong OEM marketing message for exclusivity of supply… retailers do exist in the market place, and appreciate the business…

Ive seen very few “mass sell outs” for a few years now, and them that do are usually 1 specific livery, and may be limited.. others tend to get re- run.

The market has changed, higher pricing seems to have induced some caution in buying habits as things are around on shelves much longer.. it may also be that covid lockdowners have less interest too.

 

 

Edited September 29 by adb968008

[Dunsignalling]

The crux of the matter for me is that Hornby hasn't yet made anything I'm willing to pay over 200 quid for.

 

I admittedly got close with the Caprotti Black Five until I saw those lights on an actual model.....

[ColinB]

26 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

So if Rails was selling them, there wasnt a situation…

which negates the point your suggesting.

oddly your example response even says so..

 

sure some offer preorder discounts, others offer points, but don't confuse a strong OEM marketing message for exclusivity of supply… retailers do exist in the market place, and appreciate the business…

Ive seen very few “mass sell outs” for a few years now, and them that do are usually 1 specific livery, and may be limited.. others tend to get re- run.

The market has changed, higher pricing seems to have induced some caution in buying habits as things are around on shelves much longer.. it may also be that covid lockdowners have less interest too.

 

 

Yes, Rails were selling them, as I said they had a few left over, I only bought it as I had read so many wonderful reviews. I was not disappointed. Could you buy one off them two days after I got my order, no you couldn't. As to the mass sell outs where have you been. I collect A4 locos, the last three I have bought, two HDs and a normal one, have been substantially discounted. The HDs were at least £100 off. You can't buy many of the locos I bought from Accurascale now. Either way it makes no difference to me what you think, I pay the money so I chose who I spend it with. Sadly a lot of people have difficulty with that concept.

[ColinB]

5 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

The crux of the matter for me is that Hornby hasn't yet made anything I'm willing to pay over 200 quid for.

 

I admittedly got close with the Caprotti Black Five until I saw those lights on an actual model.....

Exactly, I have about 18000 reward points from previous purchases and I have real difficulty finding anything I want to buy. I suppose when they get some motors in, that may be an idea. Surprisingly they are the cheapest around. 

[Dunsignalling]

10 minutes ago, ColinB said:

Yes, Rails were selling them, as I said they had a few left over, I only bought it as I had read so many wonderful reviews. I was not disappointed. Could you buy one off them two days after I got my order, no you couldn't. As to the mass sell outs where have you been. I collect A4 locos, the last three I have bought, two HDs and a normal one, have been substantially discounted. The HDs were at least £100 off. You can't buy many of the locos I bought from Accurascale now. Either way it makes no difference to me what you think, I pay the money so I chose who I spend it with. Sadly a lot of people have difficulty with that concept.

Simple reason for the difference. Accurascale invite pre-orders and calculate batch sizes based on the response. That makes it easier to make enough, but not too many.

 

Hornby have to just guess as they don't even tell anyone what they are planning to make before placing orders with the factories.

 

And folk wonder why Hornby have recurring problems with the business.....

Edited September 29 by Dunsignalling

[adb968008]

35 minutes ago, ColinB said:

As to the mass sell outs where have you been. I collect A4 locos, the last three I have bought, two HDs and a normal one, have been substantially discounted. The HDs were at least £100 off.

disagreeing with me by agreeing with me..

 

I said..
 

Quote

Ive seen very few “mass sell outs” for a few years now, and them that do are usually 1 specific livery, and may be limited.. others tend to get re- run.

So we do actually agree.

 

I agree with the Hornby comments too..

 

Accurascales model is perfect… announce, reap in the orders, make to order, sells out relatively quickly, though some stick (class 92, Manors etc are still in retailers). Theres no excuse not to pre-order.. they make it dead easy.

 

I do note that whilst they are gone, prices arent really climbing, as side the odd few, which suggests they made exactly enough for everyone who wants one.

 

Revolution and Cavalax are similar.

 

But most of the rest follow a similar trend to Hornby and live /discount based on their success / volumes / price etc… you can get a lot of discount GWR stuff from several retailers currently which to me suggests the GWR isnt as big a deal as some make out.

My recent Black 5 cost me under £120, VEP under £300 and APT was a few hundred quid cheaper.

 

But theres something like 50 toolings now announced but undelivered.. Its been a pretty lean year for deliveries and you cant blame it all on the Houthis.

Little trouble in Big China or something closer to home ?

 

 

Edited September 29 by adb968008

[Geep7]

6 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

The crux of the matter for me is that Hornby hasn't yet made anything I'm willing to pay over 200 quid for.

 

I admittedly got close with the Caprotti Black Five until I saw those lights on an actual model.....

I do have to agree that nothing has piqued my interest from the main Hornby UK OO range for quite some time. However, I am, mostly a D&E modeller, modelling the late 60's / early 70's, so I wouldn't expect models every announcement, but there are models I have bought, or on pre-order, from every one of their other OO gauge competitors in the last couple of years or so. I think the last Hornby model I bought was a 2-Hal.

 

That being said, I have bought and have pre-orders of models with Hornby on their International side of operations, so the UK range is only one side of a multifaceted company.

[JohnR]

18 hours ago, woodenhead said:

I don't remember it being easy to buy lots of trains when I was young, my dad wasn't buying new stuff every week, certainly not multiples of one loco type in one go which some appear to be able to do today.  We had to save up, wait for birthdays and Christmas.

 

Sales are a general expectation of the public these days and not specific to model railways, the simple fact is everyone wants to feel they've got a bargain and it generates this new world we inhabit where RRP is actually just a point from which to begin discounting be it food, TVs, fridges, phones, beds, carpets, cars or model trains.

 

 

Quite. I used to think growing up that we as a family were doing OK. Dad was always in work, we lived in our own home. But I never managed to get more than a few locos when I was a kid, because they had to wait for Christmas and Birthdays, and often there was something else as my "main" present that year - or more likely not anything in the catalogue that caught my fancy. 

 

Today, my own kids are lucky enough to have a much bigger layout than I had, and have more locos than you can shake a stick at - even if quite a few of them are Hornby 0-4-0s! But they also have an HST set, a Pendolino, a few 66s  (Hornby, not Accurascale). In short, they've got way more stock than they know what to do with, and certainly much more than I ever had.