Templot experimental 7mm scale COT track - FDM (filament) printed

[hayfield]

This development of Templot is in its experimental stage

COT (integral chairs on timbers) track - FDM (filament) printed

 

Martin decided to experiment with one of his FDM 3D printers to see what would happen if he printed both sleepers/timbers and chairs with a filament printer in 7mm scale.

 

 

The results were very promising, this was an experiment I tried with a cheap Kingroon printer and the test print above shows the potential.

As can be seen there is surface patination as ironing of the timbers had not been switched on.

This print is in the raw without any tweaks to improve the finished quality

Also there are a couple of other tweaks required

 

 

I then decided to do a test print for a turnout, this is at the moment experimental not in development like plug track.

In Templot 5 (next release) Martin has both added code 125 rail as a selection and ironing timber tops.

Martin has achieved much better results in half the time using a Neptune 4 printer

 

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?attachments/cot_track_125-jpg.10860/

(I have not asked Martin if I can use his photo) 

Photo taken by Martin Wynne thread in link below

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/fdm-chairs-in-0-gauge.991/page-2#post-12809

 

The up side is the track in height is compatible with commercial track work systems

Also like Templot plug track an easy to use build system

Downside if you call it a downside is you build it like a British Finescale turnout kit

As you would expect the quality is far better with a dearer printer and a B7 can be printed in 3 not 4 sections in half of the time

 

This is a flavor of what's to come rather than what's available, its in an experiential stage so development may be some time away

 

 

Another test with my Kingroon using code 131 chair settings, as you can see the Kingroon printer strings a bit so needs cleaning up (the Neptune 4 is much better) and this print is part cleaned up

 

One thing I am personally pleased with is the detail of the special chairs, just look at Martin's photo of the common crossing and check chairs and the quality he has achieved. Hopefully over the coming months progress may be made, but Templot as it is must take priority

 

I need to wait for at least Templot 5 to be released over the next month before I can do some more testing

 

By the way the 4 sections of the B7 costs £1.20 to print, the price of rail varies

Again as with plug track, no prebuilt common crossings required

Eventually 7mm printable filing jigs available

 

Please don't forget this is all in a developmental stage

Edited August 31 by martin_wynne
clarify FDM in topic title, not resin

[martin_wynne]

Thanks John.

 

This is part of a B-6 turnout in 0 gauge, straight off the printer. No CAD skills needed, the 3D file from Templot is ready for printing:

 

 

 

 

To get this result I used a fast Klipper-based printer, an Elegoo Neptune 4. I have been unable to achieve the same results on slower Marlin-based printers.

 

As John says, this is still in development. We are hoping to have Templot5, a new open-source version of Templot available in time for Scaleforum in 3 weeks time. Bear in mind this above is for 0 gauge. It doesn't work so well in 4mm/ft scale, where the resin-printed chairs and plug track is the better method. There will be demos and talks about this at Scaleforum.

 

These are REA-pattern chairs (3-screw). The A chair is the older-style cast design -- the more modern slab & bracket design is coming soon. Also available are the spacer blocks for the crossing, which can be included in the print (but with visible support), or printed and assembled separately:

 

 

(computer render)

 

These need dummy bolt heads glued to the outside of the rail.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Edited August 31 by martin_wynne

[hayfield]

Martin

 

Thanks for sharing the photo, the quality is stunning especially as its experimental, the common crossing chairs are superb 

 

Using the Neptune 4, you only need 3 not 4 bricks (sections). Twice the speed of the Kingroon

As for gauges GOGf (32mm gauge), S7 (33mm gauge) 0MF (31.5 gauge)

No worry about track gauges, or preforming common crossings

Edited August 30 by hayfield

[hayfield]

 

This is the first of 4 sections (Bricks in Templot terminology) again in a very under developed state but showing a real potential for the future, Rightly work is going on for the latest Templot update (Templot 5) arriving hopefully late September. It will have ironing for the timbers/sleepers switched on and as Martins photo shows transforms the print

 

 

This small test print is where I have recalibrated the test print, we have found inaccuracy's with some code 125 rail size, again Templot 5 rectifies this issue

 

I will pause my tests until Templot 5 is released, the experiment in my opinion has proved successful and the future for 7mm scale is much brighter

 

I will repeat the costings

Printed base £1.20

2.25m of rail @ £3.75 pm  £8.40

Total £9.60

 

Peco turnouts £80-£96 each

 

 

 

 

[martin_wynne]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

Peco turnouts £80-£96 each

 

Hi John,

 

Seriously? Remind me to check that the Templot donations button is working ok. 🙂

 

Martin.

[martin_wynne]

p.s.  John,

 

Don't forget the one-off cost for the filing jigs. A couple of pounds. They are the same size as for code75 rail, so the cost will be the same as 4mm scale. You are not likely to wear one out on a typical 0 gauge layout.

 

Martin.

[meil]

Am I correct to assume that I can print Scale 7 bases/bricks as well?

[martin_wynne]

5 minutes ago, meil said:

Am I correct to assume that I can print Scale 7 bases/bricks as well?

 

Hi,

 

Templot works for any scale, any gauge, any track standard, any turnout size from A-4 to F-20, straight or curved to any radius. But 3D is only Bullhead (any rail section), and at present only for REA chairs (not yet GWR).

 

However, the COT track (FDM-printed integral chairs on timbers) is really only suitable for 7mm scale and above. For 4mm/ft, the plug track method is better (resin-printed chairs plugged into FDM timbers):

 

 

Martin.

[KeithHC]

Oh Martin I now need to find an excuse for an 0 gauge layout. Maybe a Dapol 08 and a few wagons………

 

Keith

[hayfield]

5 hours ago, meil said:

Am I correct to assume that I can print Scale 7 bases/bricks as well?

 

Meil

 

The gauge selection for 7mm scale is 

0MF    31.5mm gauge

GOGfine  32mm gauge

Scale 7   33mm gauge

 

When Templot 5 is released towards the end of next month (Sept) rail choices will be code 125 and 131

 

Like C&L and Exactoscale basic chairs, which can be used for all 3 gauges, With Templot plug track and COT track, where chairs are scale dependent (eg check rail chairs) the chairs reflect the gauge chosen

 

You can also print bespoke (whatever angle 6.37), easy to use filing jigs for vees and switch rails, no need to build subassemblies for common crossings  with either Templot Plug track and COT track. Track gauges not required. Build time is slashed and as I have said all the special chairs are there !!

 

Depending on what type of printer you use each brick on a Kingroon printer takes 3 to 4 hours to print, Neptune 4 printers are I believe twice as quick, bigger print area allows a turnout to be printed in 3 not 4 sections. Build time has been slashed

 

Simply select scale/gauge and code of rail to be used,

COT track uses a building method similar to British Finescale 2mm & 4mm kits. 

[martin_wynne]

20 minutes ago, hayfield said:

The gauge selection for 7mm scale is 

0MF    31.5mm gauge

GOGfine  32mm gauge

Scale 7   33mm gauge

 

When Templot 5 is released towards the end of next month (Sept) rail choices will be code 125 and 131

 

Hi,

 

The above is just the pre-sets showing on the short list. The following pre-sets are available for 0 gauge on the full list:

 

  name     gauge       scale       ratio

 P-48     29.9  mm    1/4"/ft     1:48      Proto-48                
 0-NMRA    1.252"     1/4"/ft     1:48      0 NMRA dimensions       
 P-45     32.00 mm    6.77 mm/ft  1:45      Proto-45 Europe         
 0-EURO   32.00 mm    6.77 mm/ft  1:45      0 Europe                
 0-SF     31.20 mm    7 mm/ft     1:43.54   0 SPECIAL-FINE          
 0-MF     31.50 mm    7 mm/ft     1:43.54   0 MODIFIED-FINE         
 0-AMRA   31.875mm    7 mm/ft     1:43.54   0 AMRA Australia        
 GOG-F    32.0  mm    7 mm/ft     1:43.54   0 GOG dims FINE         
 GOG-C    32.0  mm    7 mm/ft     1:43.54   0 GOG dims COARSE       
 0-NEM    32.0  mm    7 mm/ft     1:43.54   EurO NEM 43             
 0-BC     32.0  mm    7 mm/ft     1:43.54   0 BRMSB Coarse          
 S7       33.00 mm    7 mm/ft     1:43.54   ScaleSeven              
 S7(I)    36.75 mm    7 mm/ft     1:43.54   Irish 5'3" S7 dims     
 0-US-OLD  1.25"      9/32"/ft    1:42.67   0 US old dimensions    

 

In addition, any gauge or scale or track standard can be entered as a custom setting. Likewise any rail section can be entered as a custom setting, if you know the dimensions.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[njee20]

On 30/08/2024 at 18:56, martin_wynne said:

 

 

To achieve this quality requires one of the fast Klipper-based printers, such as the Elegoo Neptune 4.

This is misleading. You can achieve good quality prints on printers regardless of firmware. Prusa and Bambu printers both use proprietary firmware and will give consistently better results out of the box than a Neptune 4 (although are markedly more expensive). Changing to a smaller nozzle (eg 0.2mm) is the biggest single improvement you can make. Correlating speed and quality is misleading too.

 

Nothing wrong with saying what you used to accomplish a result, but suggesting it’s necessary to have X equipment is just wrong. 

[martin_wynne]

42 minutes ago, njee20 said:

Nothing wrong with saying what you used to accomplish a result, but suggesting it’s necessary to have X equipment is just wrong.

 

OK, I will re-word that:

 

To get this result I used a fast Klipper-based printer, an Elegoo Neptune 4. I have been unable to achieve the same results on slower Marlin-based printers.

 

Sorry if anyone was misled.

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

8 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi John,

 

Seriously? Remind me to check that the Templot donations button is working ok. 🙂

 

Martin.

 

Martin

 

Rails have a 20% discount Peco Bullhead turnouts vary between £63 and £77 still a lot of money

 

Rail is getting very expensive, 10m of HiNi C&L £37  Permaway (Phoenix) £40

 

OK jigs do cost, but I still have the A5 you sent me years ago, its still is good as new and I must have used it over 10 times

 

   4mm Vee jig, the 7mm version is the same size, but has a larger slot. Cost £2 + nuts & bolts

 

Certainly most decent clubs should own their own 3D printers. Or how many folk who are club members own 3D printers, probably more than you think

 

0 gauge is on a roll especially with us older folk, how many turnouts will a small layout use 6 ? well that at discount prices the turnouts cost between £378 and £462  COT turnouts under £60

 

A meter of 7mm track will cost about £1 + 2 x £3.75  =  £8.50  The saving is not so great BUT you can print the track to the required Radii, plus add 12" timbers at the ends of each track panel

 

Peco £12. C&L £10.50  Phoenix £10

 

Whilst I guess printing your own branch line will pay for a printer and still have some wedge left over for stock

But its not about price, its getting something that's not available off the shelf

 

In the past if a novice asked how difficult is it to build a P4 or S7 turnout, the answer would be, very

 

How difficult is it to print a P4 (plug track) or S7 turnout (COT track), the answer would be just as easy as an 0 or 00 turnout

The next question is how easy is it to build an 0 gauge COT track turnout, the answer is very much easier than conventual methods,

 

Skills required. cut and file rail (aids available to make filing Vees and switch rails easy) and perhaps a bit of simple soldering (which is needed for power feeds anyway

 

Not forgetting this is at the moment is experimental, but if a technophobe like me can have a go, most others could handle it.

[hayfield]

53 minutes ago, njee20 said:

This is misleading. You can achieve good quality prints on printers regardless of firmware. Prusa and Bambu printers both use proprietary firmware and will give consistently better results out of the box than a Neptune 4 (although are markedly more expensive). Changing to a smaller nozzle (eg 0.2mm) is the biggest single improvement you can make. Correlating speed and quality is misleading too.

 

Nothing wrong with saying what you used to accomplish a result, but suggesting it’s necessary to have X equipment is just wrong. 

 

Njee20

 

Thanks for pointing this out, most users (like me) will not be able to do this

 

Martin has several printers and he kindly makes the settings available

 

Unlike most everyone else I have been printing COT track with a cheap Kingroon printer, the two issues I have encountered is 

 

1 the speed    (which I can live with)

2 stringing  (again to a certain extent I can live with this

 

For plug track yes I am getting very good results with my Kingroon

 

Looking at the quality Martin has achieved with a Neptune 4 (much the same price) is both faster and of a higher quality. For me to be part of Templot plug and COT track I need assistance from the guys in Templot club, so need to use the hardware others are successfully using.

 

We need Martin's and others time developing the software. The group cannot be expected to support every printer. Do join the club sounds like your knowledge can be successfully used for the benefit of others

 

Your comment about changing the nozzle sounds interesting, what are the costs, where do you get them from, are they easy to get. How will it affect my printer settings (I think for me this would be the biggest hurdle). 

 

Please remember, this is Martin's hobby, Templot is funded out of Martins pocket as are the printers he owns, a few of us do help out a bit with costs. But Martin is sharing his hobby and results with all at no cost.

 

Yes for the few in the know your comments are valuable 

Thanks for your thoughts and please feel free to continue to contribute to the thread

[martin_wynne]

46 minutes ago, hayfield said:

Your comment about changing the nozzle sounds interesting, what are the costs, where do you get them from, are they easy to get. How will it affect my printer settings (I think for me this would be the biggest hurdle). 

 

Hi John,

 

Spare nozzles of differing sizes are readily available on Amazon and elsewhere. Changing them on most machines can be tricky because it has to be done hot, and you are likely to end up burning your fingers if you are not very careful.

 

The standard nozzle is 0.4mm diameter. I have tried using a 0.2mm nozzle in the past, but I don't suggest that you bother. I found that:

 

1. the fine detail is improved, but not as much as you might expect.

 

2. the print time is multiplied by about 4. i.e. 4 hours with a 0.2mm nozzle or 1 hour with a 0.4mm nozzle for the same print on the same printer.

 

3. the strength is poorer -- I found that fine detail breaks away easily.

 

But that's just me -- others might get better results. I haven't tried it on the Neptune 4.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

[martin_wynne]

6 minutes ago, njee20 said:

I’m afraid I don’t have (nor have I used) a Kingroon printer, so I wouldn’t like to say definitively, but assuming it’s an Ender-clone a

 

Hi,

 

The small Kingroons are not Ender clones. They are a small cantilever design using linear rails instead of rubber rollers. But changing the nozzle is the same. See:

 

 https://altwaylab.co.uk/collections/kingroon-3d-printers

 

Martin.

[Tim2014]

Wow! Is this COT track printed in regular PLA? (softening point around 55C and print around 180 to 210C)?

Martin, if you read this, you are amazing. Thank you!

[martin_wynne]

54 minutes ago, Tim2014 said:

Wow! Is this COT track printed in regular PLA? (softening point around 55C and print around 180 to 210C)?

Martin, if you read this, you are amazing. Thank you!

 

Hi Tim,

 

Thanks for your kind words.

 

It is toughened PLA -- PLA-Plus. Readily available from Amazon and elsewhere: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07FQKP7NS

 

See also: https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/fdm-chairs-in-0-gauge.991/post-13138

 

The COT track option is now easier to use in the latest version of Templot: https://85a.uk/templot/companion/installation.php

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

I seem to have two parallel threads going on as its migrated to the plug track thread

 

 

The latest test of the 7mm B6 has got to the switch rails, very pleased with it will be interesting to see how much better the prints will be with a slightly better machine

 

The build will pause as I have found the switch rail jig is too big for my Kingroon, as luck would have it, a very recent purchase, a Neptune 4 arrived today, I now need to set it up

[KeithHC]

How did you file the wing rails to fit as I see they are in four pieces.

 

Keith

[hayfield]

5 hours ago, KeithHC said:

How did you file the wing rails to fit as I see they are in four pieces.

 

Keith

  

 

Keith

 

Badly by eye, but Martin is ahead of the game, one suggestion is to have 3 or 4 plug track chairs for the wing rails and automatically will print the loose jaws, which will be trimmed underneath (to keep the slimmer timbers) after gluing in place

 

I now have my Neptune 4 up and running and will print another brick for comparison

[hayfield]

A bit of a mixed day, making room for my new 3D printer, then a frustrating afternoon not understanding the instructions ending with a brilliant print

 

 

After a couple of false starts (my own fault) The Neptune 4 started working, here near the end of the print no signs of stringing

 

 

Straight off the printer bed

 

  Top track a print from the Kingroon, below the Neptune print with upgraded software

 

The speed of the Neptune is one thing, the detail and lack of stringing is superb

 

  A cruel close up but just look at the bolt heads, let alone chairs and keys

 

Well done Martin

[martin_wynne]

Hi John,

 

Looking good! Which profile is that? Is it the one I posted today?

 

I think it needs a fraction more ironing flow for the timber tops. Getting it just right for a smooth top without any pillowing effect is tricky -- with COT track it's not practical to sand the timbers.

 

Also I think the ironing offset needs to be increased a fraction, I noticed some severe vibration as it tried to iron the narrow spaces alongside the chairs. I think I over-did the reduction in that.

 

How well did it stick to the bed? Did you use the glue stick? What is the final thickness of the timbers at each end?

 

How noisy was the second layer? I have cut the flow for the first layer right down to avoid any ripples in the surface which makes the second layer so rough and noisy for travel moves.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

12 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

Hi John,

 

Looking good! Which profile is that? Is it the one I posted today?

 

I think it needs a fraction more ironing flow for the timber tops. Getting it just right for a smooth top without any pillowing effect is tricky -- with COT track it's not practical to sand the timbers.

 

Also I think the ironing offset needs to be increased a fraction, I noticed some severe vibration as it tried to iron the narrow spaces alongside the chairs. I think I over-did the reduction in that.

 

How well did it stick to the bed? Did you use the glue stick? What is the final thickness of the timbers at each end?

 

How noisy was the second layer? I have cut the flow for the first layer right down to avoid any ripples in the surface which makes the second layer so rough and noisy for travel moves.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

Martin

 

Yes its the latest version you listed yesterday

 

Will be interesting to see what it looks like with some paint

 

I used some glue supplied with the machine. stuck well

 

The noise is not too bad but sometimes my machine squeaks a bit only when the head accelerates quickly, machine not program ?

 

 

Filing jig working well, but I think would have to be printed one half at a time on the angle to fit the Kingroon, needs a clamp as an end stop.

 

As expected in 7mm scale there is a lot more filing than 4mm, but it was far more easier than any other system I have used in the past and probably far better

 

How about slowing down a bit I can't keep up  😄

 

 

 

 

Edited September 14 by hayfield