Hornby R30351Hornby 9F 2-10-0 Black Prince

[No Decorum]

The thing is, we’re not talking about televisions, washing machines or fridges. It isn’t a matter of choosing the best compromise between cost and quality. For the most part, if you want a particular model, you buy or you don’t. In the case of the 9F, you have a choice but in the case of a B17/5, it’s Hornby or nothing. I waited to see if Hornby had made any blunders with the LNER B17/5 and it appeared not. They were selling out rapidly and I had to move quickly to get one. On the other hand, I had wanted a model of 10800 for a long time (it was the last diesel-electric prototype I didn’t have) and when one appeared, I bagged it. Now, they are being sold off cheaply. I have no regrets. I chose not to risk missing out.

 

Inflation is horrible. One of its effects is that we tend to think in terms of past money and react with horror to new prices in devalued money. It has been repeatedly pointed out on here that models cost more-or-less what they have in the past and we are getting much better models for that price. Certainly, some manufacturers manage to produce models more cheaply than others but that isn’t much use if the model you happen to want is produced by only one manufacturer.

 

The market is constantly changing. At the moment there is overproduction. If the price of the object of your desire appals you, take the chance that it will be discounted heavily and risk missing out or pay up.

[Robin Brasher]

I expect that Hornby will eventually sell Black Prince at a discount as there are a limited amount of people who are modelling preserved railways.

 

Black Prince has previously been sold as limited editions. Bachmann produced it as 32-850K in 2006 and it is holding its value well at prices ranging from around £175 to £200 which is much the same as Bachmann's other 9Fs. Hornby's limited edition was made in 1999 as R2137. Although it was a tender driven model it was made in China. Again its value is much the same as Hornby's other similar 9Fs which, I think is around £90. Despite earlier comments this is a presentable model and will appeal to people on a budget.

 

I am pleased that Hornby are moving away from limited editions with examples being the Hornby Dublo Deltic, Hornby Dublo Silver King and Black Prince as it takes the pressure off customers to rush to buy them.

[PeterStiles]

4 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

limited amount of people who are modelling preserved railways.

But, there are more people who have travelled behind said locomotive and purchase it for that reason, rather than it  being strictly in time period or region.

Much as myself.

[ColinB]

I bought one of the older Bachmann 9F a few years ago, a weathered one. My big concern was it doesn't have tender pickups. Anyway on my track there is a dead section where I haven't got round to wiring up the frog. It is useful to check if the tender pickups are working. The Bachmann 9f passed over it at slow speed without any issues, so if you want a reasonably priced 9F I don't think you can go far wrong with one of these. They are not as good as the Hornby but not that bad.

[MikeParkin65]

1 hour ago, ColinB said:

They are not as good as the Hornby but not that bad

Excellent reliable models and excellent runners. Latest sound fitted models have pick ups on the first 2 tender axles too.

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, adb968008 said:

You would need to be retired to remember 92203 without nameplates on a daily basis.

 

 

Or have been a child with an interest in trains and living in the right area (it was withdrawn 57 years ago).

[MidlandRed]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

And a good memory.. if you were born 57 years ago, it would be exception to recall 92203 by number from a cot / pram / buggy, or as it was a Liverpool engine.. a tin bath, on a board with castor wheels.

 

if you saw it daily you’d need at least another 7/8 years on top of that, which just about puts you on the governments payroll.

If you were born in the early 60s, state pension starts at 68. 
 

As for Birkenhead 9Fs, they got about a bit, and for me were a notable daily occurrence in the West Midlands on Stanlow to Albion oil trains until these were dieselised. Once these locos moved to Carlisle they became part of the north western scene pretty well exclusively - partly because servicing or repair facilities for steam beyond that area had largely been removed (Oxley was still available in the West Midlands beyond other sheds in the area). 
 

Perhaps more importantly Black Prince was, along with Evening Star, the earliest (indeed only) preserved

examples of 9Fs and partially owing to relative celebrity ownership, received much publicity in the railway press (eg Railway Magazine, Steam World) in the late 60s/early 70s) so may well, behind Evening Star, have been the most well known of the class for enthusiasts of that era. Of course, it is less so now that there are other working examples although its participation in events like the double headed 9F stone train are other reasons for it sticking in the memory. 
 

So Hornby’s thinking in producing the model in this form is perhaps more understandable with that background - arguably more people will recall it/ know about it alongside Evening Star from the preservation era. 
 

It’s a funny old world isn’t it - one of the purist’s objections to 9F models in the past has been the incorrect wheel spacing - Hornby correct it in their latest model and suddenly the Bachmann model (with its incorrect wheel spacing) is acceptable! I’m pretty sure that if Hornby hadn’t corrected this in their latest version we would still be hearing about its inaccuracy - such is the power of Hornby to attract complainants across many subjects…… sometimes completely unfairly!! 

[MikeParkin65]

46 minutes ago, MidlandRed said:

(eg Railway Magazine, Steam World) in the late 60s/early 70s)

Railway World I think you mean - Steam World in its original form was the competitor to Steam Railway in the early 80's 

[MikeParkin65]

52 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Steam world only started in 1980 but focussed on historical, it was owned by the same company as Steam Railway, which was more contemporary steam, and along side Rail Enthusiast (which was modern)… all which fell under EMAP.

 

No - Steam World originally launched as a competitor to the EMAP publications who bought the title in late 1983 and changed it into an historical title. Many of us preferred the original Steam World to the EMAP title and took its demise quite badly!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On 04/09/2024 at 13:00, MidlandRed said:

...one of the purist’s objections to 9F models in the past has been the incorrect wheel spacing - Hornby correct it in their latest model and suddenly the Bachmann model (with its incorrect wheel spacing) is acceptable!

The Bachmann 9F's arrangement is what I regard as a skillful compromise; uniform axle centres, but with a net slightly overlong coupled wheelbase. As I recall of online discussions at the time of the Bachmann model release, no magazine reviewer reported this deviation in their reports of this model. Clearly superior in this respect when compared to Hornby's variable axle spacing on all their 9F's prior to the recent release, which was very noticeably incorrect, although of overall correct length coupled wheelbase.

 

On a broader note, 'nudging' coupled wheelbase dimensions to provide sufficient clearances is established in RTR OO, and rarely if ever the subject of comment. Done well, the eye passes over it unnoticed, but I simply have to apply the calipers to find out what has been done to create a working model. For my money, if the deviation requires measurement to be detected, that's good enough.

[MidlandRed]

56 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

The Bachmann 9F's arrangement is what I regard as a skillful compromise; uniform axle centres, but with a net slightly overlong coupled wheelbase. As I recall of online discussions at the time of the Bachmann model release, no magazine reviewer reported this deviation in their reports of this model. Clearly superior in this respect when compared to Hornby's variable axle spacing on all their 9F's prior to the recent release, which was very noticeably incorrect, although of overall correct length coupled wheelbase.

 

On a broader note, 'nudging' coupled wheelbase dimensions to provide sufficient clearances is established in RTR OO, and rarely if ever the subject of comment. Done well, the eye passes over it unnoticed, but I simply have to apply the calipers to find out what has been done to create a working model. For my money, if the deviation requires measurement to be detected, that's good enough.

Absolutely - I like the Bachmann model as well - however the point I was making concerned the tendency for individuals on forums to pile on to Hornby issues, no matter how small (accepted some are rather large as well) whereas such activity is less the case with other manufacturers - one which could be stated is the price of the new version of the Bachmann 08/09 where there have been a few rumblings on here and You Tube but nothing like the level aimed at Hornby sometimes - perhaps it just reflects the visibility of Hornby as a brand compared to others 😀

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

a veritable feast of a bar brawl

Railway modelling is a sea of tranquility compared to the ravings in the  lawless outlands of the high fidelity sound reproduction interest, as it transitioned from Edison et al's scratches played on potter's wheels and similar devices, to the digital media that now dominate. Personal insults and accusations of incompetence were batted about with great vigour, with little moderation from the editors of the various publications egging on the arguments. 

[Dunsignalling]

On 02/09/2024 at 13:03, No Decorum said:

The thing is, we’re not talking about televisions, washing machines or fridges. It isn’t a matter of choosing the best compromise between cost and quality. For the most part, if you want a particular model, you buy or you don’t. In the case of the 9F, you have a choice but in the case of a B17/5, it’s Hornby or nothing. I waited to see if Hornby had made any blunders with the LNER B17/5 and it appeared not. They were selling out rapidly and I had to move quickly to get one. On the other hand, I had wanted a model of 10800 for a long time (it was the last diesel-electric prototype I didn’t have) and when one appeared, I bagged it. Now, they are being sold off cheaply. I have no regrets. I chose not to risk missing out.

 

Inflation is horrible. One of its effects is that we tend to think in terms of past money and react with horror to new prices in devalued money. It has been repeatedly pointed out on here that models cost more-or-less what they have in the past and we are getting much better models for that price. Certainly, some manufacturers manage to produce models more cheaply than others but that isn’t much use if the model you happen to want is produced by only one manufacturer.

 

The market is constantly changing. At the moment there is overproduction. If the price of the object of your desire appals you, take the chance that it will be discounted heavily and risk missing out or pay up.

 

All quite logical but there is one definite effect of price increases in that I no longer even consider buying any item that requires the application of Rule One. I nowadays rarely make multiple purchases of locos that I do want, either.

 

I set aside a monthly model railway budget, which has seen an increasing surplus over the past four years, several thousand pounds of which has been diverted to other interests in that time.

 

Around half of my modelling friends have taken a similar view on purchasing, albeit with variable levels of self-control. 😉

 

If our attitude is replicated widely, that might be having quite an effect. 

Edited September 5 by Dunsignalling

[jjb1970]

3 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Railway modelling is a sea of tranquility compared to the ravings in the  lawless outlands of the high fidelity sound reproduction interest, as it transitioned from Edison et al's scratches played on potter's wheels and similar devices, to the digital media that now dominate. Personal insults and accusations of incompetence were batted about with great vigour, with little moderation from the editors of the various publications egging on the arguments. 

 

I still occasionally visit hi-fi websites just for the entertainment value. That hobby is splendid for full on swivel eyed bonkersness. I don't think some will ever forgive technology for commoditising high quality sound reproduction. 

[rogerzilla]

On 05/09/2024 at 22:07, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Railway modelling is a sea of tranquility compared to the ravings in the  lawless outlands of the high fidelity sound reproduction interest, as it transitioned from Edison et al's scratches played on potter's wheels and similar devices, to the digital media that now dominate. Personal insults and accusations of incompetence were batted about with great vigour, with little moderation from the editors of the various publications egging on the arguments. 

There has to be a market for 100% OFC bus cable.  Only £250/metre and guaranteed to preserve the purity of the original DCC signal.  For best results, use our osmium-plated pre-wired track joiners at only £300 for 5.

[G-BOAF]

I'm definitely going to wait to see if the price drops on this (nice to have rather than a must have like Evening Star), though I did promise myself that my next Hornby 9F should either be a single chimney BR1G or BR1C tender (for renumbering as 92134), or double chimney with BR1C or BR1F tender to create a bit of variety with Evening Star. Black Price fits neither.

 

It is annoying that Hornby printed the nameplate on the deflector rather than leaving it as an 'etch' in the bag. That way they would have maximised sales to those who wanted the loco in BR condition or want to do a simple renumber to any Double Chimney BR1G fitted 9Fs (very many). They still could have sold it as Black Prince. And its not as if its a case of 'incomplete models' don't sell, its just a case of 'in service or preserved' options.

 

But if it ends up as a poor seller I'm happy to capitalise on that!

[MikeParkin65]

22 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

It is annoying that Hornby printed the nameplate on the deflector rather than leaving it as an 'etch' in the bag. That way they would have maximised sales to those who wanted the loco in BR condition or want to do a simple renumber to any Double Chimney BR1G fitted 9Fs (very many). They still could have sold it as Black Prince. And its not as if its a case of 'incomplete models' don't sell, its just a case of 'in service or preserved' options.

I suspect that the majority of potential buyers would be put off by having to fit the nameplates. This issue of the 9F is I suggest aimed primarily at the collectors market.  

[jjb1970]

Just now, MikeParkin65 said:

I suspect that the majority of potential buyers would be put off by having to fit the nameplates. This issue of the 9F is I suggest aimed primarily at the collectors market.  

 

Not only that, many who fit nameplates rely on the printed name for positioning and getting it right.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

2 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

There has to be a market for 100% OFC bus cable.  Only £250/metre and guaranteed to preserve the purity of the original DCC signal.  For best results, use our osmium-plated pre-wired track joiners at only £300 for 5.

And don't forget the necessity for cable sexing between decoder and speaker(s) to preserve the recovered analogue waveform integrity. Available in 'steam impulse' and 'diesel rumble' optimised versions.

 

Were we not all packed up for interior decoration, I might have dug out examples of pseudo-religious fanaticism concerning the satanic origin of digital encoding, that could be found in some of the lunatic fringe publications, as further confirmation of the 'swivel-eyed bonkersness'.

 

Decades ago at the Chicago Electronics Show (I was there at my employer's behest) a 'side visit' to quickly survey the hi-fi scene led to meeting Martin Colloms for the first time. We had to find an eatery where we could freely discuss the state of audio lunacy without risk of offending the true believers...

[Robin Brasher]

On 09/09/2024 at 09:05, G-BOAF said:

I'm definitely going to wait to see if the price drops on this (nice to have rather than a must have like Evening Star), though I did promise myself that my next Hornby 9F should either be a single chimney BR1G or BR1C tender (for renumbering as 92134), or double chimney with BR1C or BR1F tender to create a bit of variety with Evening Star. Black Price fits neither.

 

It is annoying that Hornby printed the nameplate on the deflector rather than leaving it as an 'etch' in the bag. That way they would have maximised sales to those who wanted the loco in BR condition or want to do a simple renumber to any Double Chimney BR1G fitted 9Fs (very many). They still could have sold it as Black Prince. And its not as if its a case of 'incomplete models' don't sell, its just a case of 'in service or preserved' options.

 

But if it ends up as a poor seller I'm happy to capitalise on that!

Knock and the door shall be opened unto you. Hornby are offering a 15% discount on in-stock items to celebrate 70 years in Margate. Black Prince is in stock so you can get it for £224.99 if you enter the code 70YEARS15 at the check out. This is 50p more than I paid with a 10% discount on the original purchase price.

[jjb1970]

I must admit the 15% discount offer on this is tempting me......... I've resisted the Hornby 9F as I am happy with the Bachmann model I already have but Black Prince is a little different.

[Butler Henderson]

Theres 15% off it at KMS Railtech as well although they make that £5 more than is quoted above

https://www.kmsrailtech.co.uk/Hornby/15601-r30351-br-class-9f-2-10-0-92203-black-prince-era-6-5063129026233.html

 

They did previously have it 15% off the old price.

 

Its £224.99 at Derails where you will get their reward points (100 = £1 off a future order)

https://derails.co.uk/R30351-Hornby-9F-Black-Prince?search=Black prince

Edited Saturday at 12:14 by Butler Henderson

[Bulleidboy100]

I bought this the other day. Why! It's different and I liked the look of it. 92214 as seen on the GCR in 2014. I am not sure whether I will add the nameplates - there are a number of options. I may add a Black Prince to the stable at some time in the future. I think a number of people will have bought Black Prince due to its association with the late David Shepherd who owned it for very many years.

 

 

Edited Sunday at 09:36 by Bulleidboy100

[Ian Hargrave]

On 14/09/2024 at 02:15, jjb1970 said:

I must admit the 15% discount offer on this is tempting me......... I've resisted the Hornby 9F as I am happy with the Bachmann model I already have but Black Prince is a little different.

The Hornby 9F is a good model .I have two and both perform well with no issues. Best to try to shorten the tender coupling bar though. But like you I have no problem with the Bachmann variant either and some versions of that have been competitive on price recently.

 

 

 

 

[MikeParkin65]

1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:

The Hornby 9F is a good model .I have two and both perform well with no issues. Best to try to shorten the tender coupling bar though. But like you I have no problem with the Bachmann variant either and some versions of that have been competitive on price recently.

 

 

 

 

And you can currently buy a proper Loksound V5 fitted Bachmann version for the same as the Hornby model even with the 15% discount.