Hornby R30351Hornby 9F 2-10-0 Black Prince

[Robin Brasher]

I bought Black Prince as it ran on the Swanage Railway that I am modelling in 1997.

 

Yesterday I ran it in at the Furzebrook Village Hall trials. I think it is the heaviest 00 gauge locomotive I have got and it is heavier than a Hornby Dublo Bristol Castle. The detail is excellent and it should cope with a heavy train.

 

It ran very well light engine on my oval test track with third radius curves and no points. Unfortunately it derailed on some of the points on a friend's layout. He thought that his track might be at fault although his other locomotives and rolling stock ran through the points without derailing. I will see how it runs through my points next week.

[GrumpyPenguin]

It looks very nice and captures the power of the 9F very well indeed. Hopefully, it will perfrom well and haul a decent load behind it.

Personally, I would tone down the brasswork a bit, but that's just me.

Did the figures fall down in horror when they saw the loco/tender gap ?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

28 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

it derailed on some of the points on a friend's layout. He thought that his track might be at fault although his other locomotives and rolling stock ran through the points without derailing.

The 9F has a long rigid wheelbase compared to most UK traction. When Bachmann's 9F came out I toted it around a few layouts belonging to friends and it found locations to fall off the rails. 'Features' such as slight doglegs in rail joints, gradients commencing on curves, a little gauge narrowing in flexitrack curves, points not truly flat, were 'found out'.

15 minutes ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

Did the figures fall down in horror when they saw the loco/tender gap ?

Ridiculous spacing. Spaced such that the cab doors fitted on the tender just avoid fouling any of the rear featured of the loco it will still negotiate set track while looking much superior. In common with all other RTR tender loco models supplied with a canyon for the crew to fall into, this is a DIY improvement always worth performing; and will enhance this particular model which is otherwise very good..

[Robin Brasher]

One of my friends at Furzebrook raised the same point. Apart from the gap between the locomotive and tender he could not see how the locomotive can be improved. Black Prince is a preserved locomotive so I think it would be in immaculate condition so perhaps the brasswork does look like that. There are etched nameplates and a crew in the plastic bag containing bits to fit on. I like to build oval layouts rather than terminus to fiddle yard layouts. The locomotive and tender are permanently coupled so perhaps it would be a good idea to be able to shorten the connection between the locomotive and tender so the crew do not fall through the gap.

[GrumpyPenguin]

There is absolutely no excuse for those loco/tender gaps in this day and age, UK "manufacture's" have dragged their feet with close coupled rolling stock as they are doing with steam outline tender locos.

Still not convinced about the brasswork though.

IIRC (many years ago, before I passed to the DarkSide) my 9F had flangeless centre drivers (as per the prototype) and two of the other axels had some sideplay to enable the model to be more accomodating trackwise.

[Robin Brasher]

I think there is a second slot in the drawbar. If you unscrew the screw on the engine side you can probably insert it in the other slot and this will reduce the gap between the locomotive and tender. I expect the crew will still be able to fall through the gap.

[Robin Brasher]

At the Furzebrook trials last night I was able to compare my Hornby 9F that I bought for £57 at Scale Rail in 1997 with the new model. Black Prince is my third 9F. I bought my first on in 1973 for around £9 and there were doubts at the time whether anyone could afford to pay that amount. I later sold it at a profit.  The 1973 version received excellent reviews and was Hornby's first tender driven locomotive. Since then the locomotive has been improved and the new model runs more smoothly and looks more realistic than the 1997 version. I also prefer locomotive drive to tender drive.

 

The pictures show:

1 the 1997 version

2 the new version

3 Black Prince and the 1997 version together

4 A comparison between the two boxes showing how the box has increased in size

[Robin Brasher]

Last night I tested Black Prince running through a Hornby point and 2nd radius curves and it ran very well so the earlier derailments were caused by faulty track laying.

[jjb1970]

On 30/08/2024 at 15:08, Robin Brasher said:

A comparison between the two boxes showing how the box has increased in size

 

 

Box sizes are getting a bit much I think. I like a nice box and it adds feelgood factor but that doesn't have to mean huge. It's not just UK OO, it seems to be a trend in some HO markets too. There's a Chinese company called Changming, their models are truly superb, as good as it gets anywhere but the boxes are huge. And the recent Rivarossi Big Boy was verging on the ridiculous, it was more like a trainset box than a locomotive box.

[Robin Brasher]

I have had a look at the prices of a 9F through the years using the Bank of England inflation calculator:

 

£9 for my first 9F in 1972 would be £103.27 in July 2024

£57 for my second 9F in 1997 would be £108.86 in July 2024

The recommended retail price before tomorrow's price increase is £269.99 so the price has increased by over two and a half times since Tri-ang Hornby first produced the model.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

15 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

The recommended retail price before tomorrow's price increase is £269.99 so the price has increased by over two and a half times since Tri-ang Hornby first produced the model.

For a much more accurate model: and it's a good deal. Back in the 1970's those of us despairing of UK RTR wanting 4mm models of this quality had to build them from largely UK made kit parts, and the price for one like this would be in the £30 to £50 zone.

[John Isherwood]

45 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

For a much more accurate model: and it's a good deal. Back in the 1970's those of us despairing of UK RTR wanting 4mm models of this quality had to build them from largely UK made kit parts, and the price for one like this would be in the £30 to £50 zone.

 

Sorry - £269.99 is a stupid price to pay for any mass-produced model locomotive; let alone a further price increase!

 

I appreciate that there are a lot of potential purchasers with too much money, who will pay whatever Hornby choose to charge.

 

However, there are also a great many potential purchasers, such as myself who, some time ago, said "Enough is enough"! I don't buy RTR any more.

 

What will be critical in the future is the volume of the former category who remain committed, in the face of inevitably ballooning prices brought on by diminishing demand.

 

There will come a day of reckoning!

 

John Isherwood.

[Phil Parker]

55 minutes ago, John Isherwood said:

Sorry - £269.99 is a stupid price to pay for any mass-produced model locomotive; let alone a further price increase!

 

Go on then. What is the official Isherwood price ceiling for a OO high-detail RTR locomotive?

 

56 minutes ago, John Isherwood said:

There will come a day of reckoning!

 

By that you mean it will no longer be economically viable for anyone to produce RTR locomotives, and the hobby will implode. You might consider that a happy day, many others would not.

[ColinB]

4 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Go on then. What is the official Isherwood price ceiling for a OO high-detail RTR locomotive?

 

 

By that you mean it will no longer be economically viable for anyone to produce RTR locomotives, and the hobby will implode. You might consider that a happy day, many others would not.

I don't know, in some respects you are right in others perhaps not. Yes there will always be people that will pay it, but are there enough? I have just bought a HD A4 at 40%, another one at about the same and very many others at similar discounts. Obviously they didn't sell. The big issue is a lot of Hornby's designs are getting old and there will always be reasonable ones second hand that probably aren't that much different. I bought the new B17, it is nice but would I have paid  £250 for it, I doubt it. I bought the 9F off Hornby at full retail price less 10% for being a club member. I was then horrified to find it 6 months later at about 2/3 of the price I paid for it. So it obviously didn't sell. It is a nice loco but not at its new price which is substantially more that even I paid. We will just have to wait and see. Unfortunately, once you start to lose sales it is really difficult to get them back.

[AY Mod]

Quote

what more does RMweb require of me?

 

You really shouldn't need to ask. You created a stink on here, took up too much of people's time and then started to try and spread your unpleasantness elsewhere on the internet (but had your wings clipped I note). And you wonder why you may, just possibly, be unliked; certainly by me at least.

 

You've said you're a fan of plain-talking, so there you go.

[Robin Brasher]

The recommended retail price of Black Prince went up to £269.99 today although it is still showing at £249.99 on Hornby's web site. 

 

I have got some sympathy with John Isherwood's views but Black Prince is a must have model for me and I would still have bought it at the new price. I am modelling the Swanage Railway and Black Prince was the only 9F to have run there. 

 

I am very pleased with the model and it has received very favourable comments both here and at my model railway club. I have not seen any reviews yet.  

 

I think I made the right decision to buy it. I was lucky that it came out before the price rise as it was not due to come out until the fourth quarter of 2024.

[K Hatton]

As long as you are happy with the model then that's all that matters. 

 

If you weren't willing to pay the price then you wouldn't have bought it! 

 

Everyone bickering and whining over prices going up is ridiculous in my opinion. We could all turn round to people who buy BMWs/Mercedes and say "but Ford are cheaper" - it clearly doesn't matter to that person!

 

For the record I bought Evening star for my dad and then fitted sound to it for his birthday a couple of years ago. It cost me nearly £300 overall and every time I see him smile while using it that is worth more than the money I spent.

[GrumpyPenguin]

15 hours ago, John Isherwood said:

 

15 hours ago, John Isherwood said:

Sorry - £269.99 is a stupid price to pay for any mass-produced model locomotive; let alone a further price increase!

 

In that case think yourself lucky you are not a European HO modeller then !

 

I remember when Hornby locomotives were approaching £100 a pop & heard so many people at shows saying "no one will pay over £100 for a Hornby locomotive" - or words to that effect.

[MikeParkin65]

The market will decide if Hornby prices are too high - it’s as simple as that. Those of us already well stocked will no doubt be selective and/or speculate that prices may fall further down the line. Bought 92167 for £190 new from a main dealer a few months ago, wouldn’t have bought it (and didn’t need it ) at its original price not least because I bought a proper ESU sound fitted Bachmann version last year for less.   

[Nick Holliday]

18 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

I have had a look at the prices of a 9F through the years using the Bank of England inflation calculator:

 

£9 for my first 9F in 1972 would be £103.27 in July 2024

£57 for my second 9F in 1997 would be £108.86 in July 2024

The recommended retail price before tomorrow's price increase is £269.99 so the price has increased by over two and a half times since Tri-ang Hornby first produced the model.

I've always found these official inflation figures seem to bear no resemblance to reality.  I much prefer the Railway Modeller price index!

In 1972 it cost just 18p, in 1997 £1.85 and currently around £5.90.  Based on those figures, the 1972 price becomes £295 and the 1997 price £182, so £270 is almost a bargain compared with the 1972 price.

Edited September 1 by Nick Holliday
Miscalculation of 1997 figures

[jjb1970]

1 hour ago, MikeParkin65 said:

The market will decide if Hornby prices are too high - it’s as simple as that. 

 

Hammer. Nail. Head.

[spamcan61]

1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

I've always found these official inflation figures seem to bear no resemblance to reality.  I much prefer the Railway Modeller price index!

In 1972 it cost just 18p, in 1997 £1.85 and currently around £5.90.  Based on those figures, the 1972 price becomes £295 and the 1997 price £182, so £270 is almost a bargain compared with the 1972 price.

The humble Mars Bar has always been my benchmark, but then 'shrinkflation' makes that a dodgy one to use these days 

[Butler Henderson]

19 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

I have had a look at the prices of a 9F through the years using the Bank of England inflation calculator:

 

£9 for my first 9F in 1972 would be £103.27 in July 2024

£57 for my second 9F in 1997 would be £108.86 in July 2024

The recommended retail price before tomorrow's price increase is £269.99 so the price has increased by over two and a half times since Tri-ang Hornby first produced the model.

Not exactly a like for like inflation comparison. The amount of parts to be assembled in the current model vastly outweighs what was involved in assembling those earlier models. The earlier tooling was used in 2020 for R3942 92219 with a price of £109.99.

[jjb1970]

I remember the old Hornby 9F as a youngster in the 70's and 80's, for it's day it was a good model. There's a tendency to deride old models from by-gone eras yet in their day they were seen as very good. When they upgraded the original tooling in the 90's (?) with better valve gear it made a real improvement and kept it respectable. 

[Neil]

On 31/08/2024 at 20:09, Phil Parker said:

.... Go on then. What is the official Isherwood price ceiling for a OO high-detail RTR locomotive? ....

 

I've no idea what his is, but my cut off point is about £100.

 

I should explain that I can afford to pay more without denting the finances but I choose not to. If it's not linked to affordability then why is that my limit? Quite simply I'd feel a bit stupid paying so much for something ready made when my joy from the hobby comes from making things. When I see how much my friends pay for the latest sound fitted locos and the quantities they buy them in, I think of how many jolly good holidays I could get for their yearly spend. That's not to say that I don't buy stuff it's just that I'm happy to wait for bargains and to buy second hand.